Newbie advice on piping

[gartj]

Before you start harassing me note the post count. For some reason when I try to search on this subject it doesn't work. Anyways, I'm starting up a 75g. not drilled reef tank and the question I have is on the plumbing. It seems that looking on the web there are many different ways to do this.
My setup,
75g main, 20l baffled sump with center refuge, Cpr Aquatic continuous siphon overflow (@1200gph) w/ 2 - 1" bulkhead fittings. I got rid of the foam and made 2 - 1 1/4" Durso standpipes. This will feed into a Coralife 125 skimmer. Everything will return with a Quiet 1 6000 return pump (@1500gph)
Some readings I've seen say to exit the overflow with a larger pipe on both fittings.
Some say the same size (1") and feed both lines into a larger pipe and run 1 larger return.
Would there be a benefit of running an arm off one of the overflow lines to trickle feed the refuge?
What size should the return line be before it divides to the tank and what size should those lines be?
Should it divide? Does that matter? Motion in tank will come from 2 1200 MJ'S
I'm looking to make this as quiet as possible and only want to run the piping once.
Also through your experiences can someone tell me where to place valves and unions (a diagram would be even better)
I know that there are probably things I'm not thinking of so please interject your thoughts and experiences.

[Aquarist007]

[welcome]

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12003251#post12003251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gartj
Before you start harassing me note the post count. For some reason when I try to search on this subject it doesn't work. Anyways, I'm starting up a 75g. not drilled reef tank and the question I have is on the plumbing. It seems that looking on the web there are many different ways to do this.
My setup,
75g main, 20l baffled sump with center refuge, Cpr Aquatic continuous siphon overflow (@1200gph) w/ 2 - 1" bulkhead fittings. I got rid of the foam and made 2 - 1 1/4" Durso standpipes. This will feed into a Coralife 125 skimmer. Everything will return with a Quiet 1 6000 return pump (@1500gph)
Some readings I've seen say to exit the overflow with a larger pipe on both fittings.
Some say the same size (1") and feed both lines into a larger pipe and run 1 larger return.
Would there be a benefit of running an arm off one of the overflow lines to trickle feed the refuge?
What size should the return line be before it divides to the tank and what size should those lines be?
Should it divide? Does that matter? Motion in tank will come from 2 1200 MJ'S
I'm looking to make this as quiet as possible and only want to run the piping once.
Also through your experiences can someone tell me where to place valves and unions (a diagram would be even better)
I know that there are probably things I'm not thinking of so please interject your thoughts and experiences.

do you have a picture of this setup that you can post

some background to help:
flow in your tank should be between 20-40 times the vol of the tank in gph

flow through the sump should be between 5-10 times the total water column in gph

flow through the refugium should be about 1/8 the flow going through the sump

flow through one inch pipe max's out at 600 gph(gravity feed) and you can get a little more with a pump

from this background you need more flow in the tank itself--consider Korilia pumps---cheap and very powerfull

you should have a valve in the line like you mentioned to slowdown the flow to the sump and t it off with a valve to flow down the flow even further to the refugium.

[gartj]

I've been reading these forums for quite awhile. In my head after I posted this I wondered if the guy with the welcome fish was going to be the first reply.
Thank you for the welcome.

[gartj]

No pics yet, sorry

You said "flow through the sump should be between 5-10 times the total water column in gph"
What is a water column?

Will the flow from 2 - 400 gph pumps be too much for the tank. The next size down is 50 gph less than the MJ 1200?

Is there any other benefit to trickling the refuge?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12003500#post12003500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gartj
No pics yet, sorry

You said "flow through the sump should be between 5-10 times the total water column in gph"
What is a water column?

Will the flow from 2 - 400 gph pumps be too much for the tank. The next size down is 50 gph less than the MJ 1200?

Is there any other benefit to trickling the refuge?

water column=tank, sump, refugium--everthing water that is attached to the system

the mj's are290 gph
the korilias:
#1 400 gph
#2 600gph
#3 800 gph
#4 1200 gph

the flow from a mj is straight flow or laminar
the flow from the korilias is turbulant flow--more like on the reef

[gartj]

So what size Korilias would you suggest I use?
Benefit to trickling the refuge?
For noise, pipe diameters?

[Aquarist007]

you want a flow of 1500-3000 in a 75 gal .So two number 3's would do

trickling the fuge allows colonies of copopods ect to build up in there for food for the main tank.
it also allows longer time for the bacteria to work on live rock and rock rubble, deep sand bed etc that are usually in a fuge

most go with the one inch diameter for your situation

[Moosetache]

Ok, well capn, I am going to jump in on this thread as well because it pertains to a problem I am having right now...

I have a 20G Long sump, with a fuge in the middle 12" section....unfortunately I have all the water that runs through the sump, goes through the fuge...this apparently is not a great thing. However, I have read that Chaeto likes a lot of flow..true?

I am about to set up a different 20L sump, and just want to get all the info before I design something. Thanks capn!!!!

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12004298#post12004298 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Ok, well capn, I am going to jump in on this thread as well because it pertains to a problem I am having right now...

I have a 20G Long sump, with a fuge in the middle 12" section....unfortunately I have all the water that runs through the sump, goes through the fuge...this apparently is not a great thing. However, I have read that Chaeto likes a lot of flow..true?

I am about to set up a different 20L sump, and just want to get all the info before I design something. Thanks capn!!!!

chaeto likes a lot of flow--that is perhaps a little misguided

IMO the flow dictates the use of the refugium:

if it is simply to raise a greater number and variety of copopods for the main tank then you want a very slow flow through it so they can be introduced back into the main tank a little at the time.

if the refugium is added to get the nitrate and phosphate reductioon from the chaeto then you can have a stronger flow through it to expose more of the water column to the chaeto in a given time

and of course there is a third system which is a balance between the two flows--this can be accomplished better when you get a great mass of cheato in there and it will collect nitrates and phosphates and provide the copopods greater protection for being swept away with the flow

I should add that if you are using the refugium to filter out nitrates and phosphates then you need a pretty big refugium with a good growth of chaeto to have any noticeable affect on reducing phosphates and nitrates

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12004298#post12004298 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Ok, well capn, I am going to jump in on this thread as well because it pertains to a problem I am having right now...

I have a 20G Long sump, with a fuge in the middle 12" section....unfortunately I have all the water that runs through the sump, goes through the fuge...this apparently is not a great thing. However, I have read that Chaeto likes a lot of flow..true?

I am about to set up a different 20L sump, and just want to get all the info before I design something. Thanks capn!!!!

your set up isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you have the refugium sectioned off with a baffle on each side then you are slowing the flow through it. The key is to have the water skimmed before it goes through the refugium--not the other way around or the skimmer will take out alot of the copopods ect.

can you post a pic of your sump?

[Moosetache]

Can you tell me how to post a picture on here? I would be happy to. You must know, that I am currently setting up another one because the baffles in my sump I didnt make tall enough.

[Moosetache]

/Users/mrf2675/Desktop/sump pic.jpg/Users/mrf2675/Desktop/sump pic2.jpg

[Moosetache]

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z295/mrf2675/sumppic2.jpg
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z295/mrf2675/sumppic.jpg

I hope this posts correctly, if not I hope the Mods delete this and the last post.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12005867#post12005867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Can you tell me how to post a picture on here? I would be happy to. You must know, that I am currently setting up another one because the baffles in my sump I didnt make tall enough.

I see you are in photbucket
under the picture you will see four code choices
select the 4th one-- the "img" code
it will quickly flash copied
paste that code into your post

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12005905#post12005905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z295/mrf2675/sumppic2.jpg
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z295/mrf2675/sumppic.jpg

I hope this posts correctly, if not I hope the Mods delete this and the last post.

which direction is your flow through the sump-- right to left or left to right?

[Moosetache]

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z295/mrf2675/sumppic2.jpg
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z295/mrf2675/sumppic.jpg

My apologies to all the other posters on this thread that I am such a moron.....

[Moosetache]

Flow is from left to right, so the skimmer is before the fuge.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12005985#post12005985 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Flow is from left to right, so the skimmer is before the fuge.

good setup, I think the flow would have been slowed down adequately before reaching the refugium

[Aquarist007]

are you harvesting the cheato on a regular basis--it looks like you could be taking some more of the top stuff out--should look like this:
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4521.jpg

[Moosetache]

What do you think about creating a silicone box/tank within the sump for the fuge that will allow the water to flow more freely underneath the fuge and still keep the water flow slow in the fuge?

Let me know if I didnt explain that well.....

[Moosetache]

I harvest it about once a week, and by harvest I mean I just tear handfuls out of the corners of the Chaeto pad.....however, it is definitely not as submerged as yours seems to be.....

Probably because there seem to be microbubbles in the Chaeto pad.....something else I will address with the new sump, a better bubble trap.

[Moosetache]

Obviously this tank has only been up for about 7 weeks, I will post some pics of the actual tank this afternoon after the lights come on....

about the "box" in the sump, I was thinking about having about a 1"-1 1/2" gap from bottom of sump to bottom of the fuge box to allow water to flow more quickly underneath the sump. then use either a Rio 800 or Rio 400 to pump water into the sump, which do you think will allow for the appropriate amount of flow? I would like to add a Mandarin, so whatever will allow the most pod growth is best.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12006075#post12006075 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
What do you think about creating a silicone box/tank within the sump for the fuge that will allow the water to flow more freely underneath the fuge and still keep the water flow slow in the fuge?

Let me know if I didnt explain that well.....

hmmm so so---do you have the room--it looks as though you are tight on realestate

bubble are ok but a micron sock would really help with that

[Moosetache]

How often would I need to change that micron sock? In the new sump I was considering making a box about 8" tall in the corner for the overflow to come in to, with some live rock in that.....the water would then flow out the bottom of that (where there would be openings), with the skimmer next to it....then I would have the fuge and then the return and phosban reactor. Obviously I need to check the spacing, but I think the fuge could be about the same size as it it now....

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12006266#post12006266 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
How often would I need to change that micron sock? In the new sump I was considering making a box about 8" tall in the corner for the overflow to come in to, with some live rock in that.....the water would then flow out the bottom of that (where there would be openings), with the skimmer next to it....then I would have the fuge and then the return and phosban reactor. Obviously I need to check the spacing, but I think the fuge could be about the same size as it it now....

I change the sock every two days

That sounds really good-----put the rock is better placed either in the refuge in your case--where the water has slowed down--the bacteria needs time to work on the organics

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12006186#post12006186 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Obviously this tank has only been up for about 7 weeks, I will post some pics of the actual tank this afternoon after the lights come on....

about the "box" in the sump, I was thinking about having about a 1"-1 1/2" gap from bottom of sump to bottom of the fuge box to allow water to flow more quickly underneath the sump. then use either a Rio 800 or Rio 400 to pump water into the sump, which do you think will allow for the appropriate amount of flow? I would like to add a Mandarin, so whatever will allow the most pod growth is best.

there is about 60 gph difference in the two so go with the rio800---you will still have a little bit of head pressure, bends in the line ect where you lose flow

[Moosetache]

If I have that overflow box in the sump I was just thinking that LR was the best option because I obviously dont want bioballs. I will also have LR in the fuge with the Chaeto as well. I just want to make sure I am not forgetting anything before I have a friend cut me all this acrylic for free....

[Aquarist007]

nothing is the best choice--with a micron sock
the trickle filter with the bioballs was on the right--you can see the one wall of it still that I kept to slow down the flow
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4519.jpg

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12006416#post12006416 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
If I have that overflow box in the sump I was just thinking that LR was the best option because I obviously dont want bioballs. I will also have LR in the fuge with the Chaeto as well. I just want to make sure I am not forgetting anything before I have a friend cut me all this acrylic for free....

the other suggestion I was going to make was if you had the space was to remove the protein skimmer from the sump--would give you a much bigger refugium

[Moosetache]

Unfortunately, I have a 65G stand that restricts my space underneath, so almost everything has to be inside the sump if it is going to fit in the stand. I wish I could do that, and will probably do it when I get my next set up if I need to....I assure you the next set up will have more room in the stand for the sump/fuge. I am going to be getting a Euroreef RS-80 or comparable size footprint, so I need to take that into consideration too before I set up this sump. JEEEZ, so much crap to think about.

Another thing I just wanted to run by you while I have your attention, is do you think that the following is way too much to add at one time:
8 Nassarius snails
1 Yellow Cuc
25 Blue Leg Hermits (I currently have none)
CB Shrimp

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12006538#post12006538 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Unfortunately, I have a 65G stand that restricts my space underneath, so almost everything has to be inside the sump if it is going to fit in the stand. I wish I could do that, and will probably do it when I get my next set up if I need to....I assure you the next set up will have more room in the stand for the sump/fuge. I am going to be getting a Euroreef RS-80 or comparable size footprint, so I need to take that into consideration too before I set up this sump. JEEEZ, so much crap to think about.

Another thing I just wanted to run by you while I have your attention, is do you think that the following is way too much to add at one time:
8 Nassarius snails
1 Yellow Cuc
25 Blue Leg Hermits (I currently have none)
CB Shrimp

1 yellow cuc??

too many hermits for a 65 gal

suggest 6 of them
a brittle star
cb shrimp
8 nass snail
10 turbos snails

I would add the snails and hermits the first week and the shrimp the next week just to be sure

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12003941#post12003941 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gartj
So what size Korilias would you suggest I use?
Benefit to trickling the refuge?
For noise, pipe diameters?

many apologies gartj---I just realized we have competely hijacked your thread
If you will kindly repost here I will try to get it back on track

[Moosetache]

Gart, I also apologize....to help you with your question, I have a 65G like posted above and have 2 Koralia 4's in it....about 2400 gph. I am trying to keep a lot of SPS corals in the top half of my tank though.

Unfortunately capn...I have all those things coming in at one time. I also thought that Hermits were supposed to be about 1 per gallon. What is wrong with getting 1 Yellow Cuc?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12006699#post12006699 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Gart, I also apologize....to help you with your question, I have a 65G like posted above and have 2 Koralia 4's in it....about 2400 gph. I am trying to keep a lot of SPS corals in the top half of my tank though.

Unfortunately capn...I have all those things coming in at one time. I also thought that Hermits were supposed to be about 1 per gallon. What is wrong with getting 1 Yellow Cuc?
lol nothing---I just didn't know what it was _DUH

cuc--aka clean up crew

smooth moosetache--way to cover for our hijacking:smokin:

[Moosetache]

Thanks Capn....do feel bad about jumping in, didnt realize it would get this out of control. Hope I dont overdo the bioload adding that much at once. But its not like I can just leave them in bags for a week after I get them. We will see what happens

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12007713#post12007713 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Thanks Capn....do feel bad about jumping in, didnt realize it would get this out of control. Hope I dont overdo the bioload adding that much at once. But its not like I can just leave them in bags for a week after I get them. We will see what happens


the bioload will probably be ok--watch carefully over 48 hrs for an ammonia spike and be ready for a quick water change.
As far as that many hermits--its long term feeding that I was thinking about--plus the mix of hermits and snails is not always a good thing--the hermits will kill the snails

good luck--keep me posted

don't worry about the hijack I am sure the orginal poster will have gotten some info also from out posts

[Moosetache]

I didnt think that the large turbo snails were at risk from the hermits....guess I didnt know I was talking about. I will just do a water change after about 24 hrs anyway to be sure.

If Blue Legs have hair algae in their diet, they will be okay for a long time in my tank!

[Aquarist007]

blue legs do not eat hair algae

[Moosetache]

Oh well.....I was hoping my Kole Tang would though....apparently not on that too! He has been in there for about a week or so now, and he has been picking at the rocks and glass a lot, however he seems to have a "dented stomach" (or thin on both sides).

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12008876#post12008876 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Oh well.....I was hoping my Kole Tang would though....apparently not on that too! He has been in there for about a week or so now, and he has been picking at the rocks and glass a lot, however he seems to have a "dented stomach" (or thin on both sides).

that's a big problem--chosing critters to eat algae
You are better to come at the problem as if it is a phospate and nitrate problems
Did you read the thread I started on this?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1329802

[Moosetache]

Yeah, I read that entire thread....which is why I added the Phosban Reactor. Decided to go with slightly more hermits at the time because I was also planning on increasing the bioload in the tank by adding another true perc, a wrasse of some kind, and a Mandarin at some point.

Going to have to find something for this Tang to feast on this afternoon as well.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12008993#post12008993 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Moosetache
Yeah, I read that entire thread....which is why I added the Phosban Reactor. Decided to go with slightly more hermits at the time because I was also planning on increasing the bioload in the tank by adding another true perc, a wrasse of some kind, and a Mandarin at some point.

Going to have to find something for this Tang to feast on this afternoon as well.

they love spirulina algae flakes or nori(kelp) you can get a sticky for the side of the tank

for a mandarin--you must have a dedicated refugium to producing copopods for it or it will starve