High Ph problem

[Phyre]

Here's the tank info .. 6 year old 125G reef , 55G sump/ Refugium with 4" sand bed and some chaeto, AquaC EV120, 3 powerheads for flow, half crushed coral substrate, half sand, 150 to 200 pounds live rock. Top off water and water changes done with RO/DI and Red Sea Coral Pro Salt.
Fish: yellow tang, powder brown tang, lawnmower blenny, 3 ocellaris clownfish, manderin dragonet, coral beauty, 2 cleaner shrimps, hermit crabs, snails etc. Lots of little mysis and pods . Unfortunatly some bigger bristleworms (due to I'm sure nutrient rich tank)
Corals: 2 bubble corals one green one purple, Zoa rock, torch coral, frogspawn, suncoral, hammer coral, ricordia and other mushrooms, on the opposite side of the tank purple leather coral, and a devils hand leather, green and red favia. Coco worm and various other feather dusters.
Parameters: March 4, 2008 they were Temp 78, pH 8.4, SG 1.026, ALK 2.2 meq/l, Ca 400ppm, Nitrate 20 ppm , Nitrite 0, Amm 0, Phos .02
March 6, 2008 they were Temp 78, pH 8.6, SG 1.026, ALK 3 meq/l, Ca 350 ppm , Nitrate 20 ppm , Nitrite 0, Amm 0, Phos .02
March 8, pH is up to 8.7
We use a refractometer for SG, pH probe (double checked level with chemical test), red sea tests for calcium, nitrate, phosphates, Hagen test kit for nitrites, and KH, API for Ammonia.
So in trying to raise our alkalinity we used good ole arm and hammer baking soda. Which it did raise it however just to have it drop off a day or two later. We hate adding things to our tank but being as it is 6 years old perhaps inevitable. I know that Calcium and alkalinity, magnesium all kind of work together to provide a stable enviroment however we are having a hard time trying to find a magnesium test in our city. Would that possibly be the reason for our issue? What I would like to know is what would be the cause of this spike in pH ? Can you suggest any possible solutions for us.

[Percula9]

How old is your pH probe? Chemical tests for pH are not that reliable. Have it checked with a different meter. Are any of the livestock suffering? Don't add any pH buffers to the tank. Do some water changes to see if that helps. Magnesium levels shouldn't affect pH that I know of. Maybe Randy will chime in and give some advice. Low CO2 levels can raise pH. High pH readings are usually test kit error.

[Phyre]

Ph probe 4 months old, all livestock look fine .. no heavy breathing from the fish all corals are out .. even our coco worm. Is it possibly being areated to much?

[IslandCrow]

Wow, most of us seem to battle with low PH, not the other way around. It doesn't sound like it, but are you adding any chemicals to your tank like kalkwasser? Macroalgaes can consume the CO2 and raise your PH. How much chaeto do you have (doesn't sound like you have that much), and are you having any algae problems in the tank? I'm afraid I probably won't be much help. Have you read this article, though?

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm

[Billybeau1]

You might try testing a cup of your water away from the tank. Sometimes electrical interference can throw pH probes off a bit. :)

[Phyre]

We dont kalk, chaeto is small ball, not alot, we have a small patch of hair algae in the tank, but we did have some higher phosphates for a few weeks. The only thing we have added to the tank at all is baking soda to try to bring our alk up a little. was sitting at 2 meq and we were trying to get it up to 3.5. we havent needed to dose calcium at all ( use red sea coral pro) although our calcium has dropped from its usual 420 to 350.

Correcting the Ph isnt so much of a concern, enough water changes will do it ( we use rodi ) and fresh mixed salt sits about 8.4 ph, I just want to know why its rising steadiliy every day??

[Phyre]

Also as a side note, we have a 44 FOWLR going and its sitting pretty at a Ph of 8.2, no issues with it at all........

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Correcting the Ph isnt so much of a concern, enough water changes will do it ( we use rodi ) and fresh mixed salt sits about 8.4 ph, I just want to know why its rising steadiliy every day??

Water changes are never the best way to deal with high or low pH problems.

That said, I do not believe that you really have high pH. I would not do anything unless the pH gets over 8.5, and if yours does it is almost certainly pH measurement error. Unless you overdose limewater or other high pH additives, excessive pH just does not happen in reef tanks (aside from using artificial rock that is not fully cured). If it is high, simple aeration will bring it down.

There are dozens of such threads in this forum, and nearly ALL turn out to be measurement errors.

If you are worried about high pH, recalibrate the pH meter with new and quality brand calibration fluids. :)

These articles have more:

High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm

The "How To" Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 3: pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php

Measuring pH with a Meter
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/chem.htm

A Comparison of pH Calibration Buffers
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/rhf/index.htm

[Phyre]

That said, I do not believe that you really have high pH. I would not do anything unless the pH gets over 8.5, and if yours does it is almost certainly pH measurement error. Unless you overdose limewater or other high pH additives, excessive pH just does not happen in reef tanks (aside from using artificial rock that is not fully cured). If it is high, simple aeration will bring it down.


Well I hope you are right , since my last post the tank has been tested with PH meter w/new batteries ( now at 8.7 ) before I smartly dropped it into the tank, killing it for good im sure........ a PH chemical test ( Hagen ph, highest measure on the chart is 8.7, supposed to be a medium blue, test colour more purple than a darker blue , although i really dont trust chemical tests) as well as a test strip from my hot tub pack, highest level on that is 8.4 and is definitely higher than that, which again means nothing). So Im at a loss. I have another PH meter coming from ebay waterproof this time , but that could be a week or 2 away.

Aside from the overflow from the sump, an air stone has been added as well into the drop zone, the sump runs off an 800 GPH pump and water drops a good 6 inches to the surface level, as well as the outlet from my Aqua C EV120 into the same area. long story short the water is so turbulent you cant even see though it, how much more aeration do I need?? Is it possible theres too much aeration?

[Phyre]

BTW, thanks for chiming in with your opinions, especially you Randy, have read your articles many a time in the last few days and definitely appreciate the information you have provided!

[reeftank21]

I am also wondering about too much aeration. I used some epoxy on my live rock and since my skimmer and microbubles have been crazy. Skimmer is overflowing. I just hooked up my controller that reads late in the day about 8.5. I don't know what the ph was before using the epoxy because I was using chemical tests.

[bertoni]

Over-aeration is hard to define, but aeration is incapable of causing an excessively high pH level unless the air surrounding the tank is especially low in carbon dioxide, which is uncommon in homes. I wouldn't worry very much about that, personally.

[IslandCrow]

Aeration would only help by allowing for better gas exchange. It's not going to exhaust your water of dissolved CO2. Although aeration can help raise low PH, don't let that fool you into thinking it will continue raising it with more aeration. It will just bring it closer to normal levels.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, have read your articles many a time in the last few days and definitely appreciate the information you have provided!

Thanks! :)

So you have another meter? If you recalibrate the controller, let us know what you find. It may have been the calibration fluids that you had. Some brands are not up to par. ;)