Kalk with Vinegar... How much to add?

[bdare]

Hi,

I hope someone can help me out. My system is about 60 total gallons. Right now I top off with fully saturated limewater (2tsp / gallon). I evaporate about 1 gallon / day and my alk drops about .5 - 1 dkh / week (9 to 8). If I can I'd like to add vinegar to my kalk so more can be disolved rather than dosing 2 part (I'm lazy).

From Randy's article "What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Limewater" is the following:

How much can be used? The more vinegar that is used, the lower the pH of both the limewater and the aquarium will be. One reasonable point to shoot for is to add about the same amount of total CO2 via the vinegar as is needed by the lime to form HCO3-. This balance is roughly matched by using three level teaspoons of solid lime per gallon of limewater, and 45 ml of vinegar per gallon of limewater. For those aquarists choosing to use vinegar in limewater, these values are a suitable starting point. Note that the pH of the limewater is still quite high, so slow dosing is usually required.

What I'd like to know is if that equation can be halved. It seems like a lot of vinegar to add from the start and I'm worried about algae / cyano outbreaks. What would be a good starting point considering my concerns?

Also, how should I mix it? I read one article that said to try to mix the kalk in vinegar BEFORE adding it to RO/DI. Can I just add the vinegar to the RO/DI before the Kalk?

Thank in advance!
Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The order of mixing is unimportant, but I would not store diluted vinegar in RO/DI for an extended period as bacteria will consume it.

It is certainly fine to start with as little vinegar as you need. It may be desirable to use as little as possible to attain your goal. That said, a little vinegar won't boost the potency all that much. But in any case, starting slow is fine. :)

Vinegar will not drive green algae. If anything, it will drive bacteria that compete with algae for nutrients. It might drive cyano, but unless that is a problem, I would not worry about it unless and until it happens.

[bdare]

Thanks Randy! I knew you'd come!

So... adding like 20ml of vinegar / gallon and an extra 1/2 tsp of kalk would work?

I've never put vinegar in my tank before and 45 ml just seems like a lot. Makes me nervous....

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is worth a try, yes. Remember it is 45 mL per gallon of limewater. Also remember that vinegar is only 5% acetic acid and 95% water. So think of 45 mL as 2.2 mL of acetic acid. :)

[bdare]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12079642#post12079642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Also remember that vinegar is only 5% acetic acid and 95% water. So think of 45 mL as 2.2 mL of acetic acid. :)

AHHHH!!! That makes me feel much better! I'll give it a shot and let you know how it works out.

Thanks again, and "Happy Reefing" ;)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:lol:

Yes, Happy Reefing. :)

[BradR]

The way I read it this increases the dosed calcium by 25%?

[bertoni]

Yes, although it's possible to use up to 3 tsp per gallon, for 50% more than normal saturated limewater.

[sditch]

I have a 10 gal. RO\DI topoff water that runs though a Kalk reactor for my auto topoff. Can I add Vineger to the 10 gal. of freash RO\DI for the top off. It goes though it in about a week.

-Sean

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No. That is one of the drawbacks to reactors. Bacteria will consume the vinegar and produce CO2 while it is sitting around diluted, which in turn will deplete the limewater, not enhance it.

[sditch]

Thanks Doc......I was going to try that and Im glad I gid not.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy reefing. :)

[bdare]

Hey Randy,

My tank looks a little cloudy this morning. Should I assume that's the bacteria bloom?

Thank,
Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could be, yes. The tank has never been cloudy before? Other possibilities include stirred up sand or detritus, stuff from cleaning the glass, or a spawning event.

[bdare]

Hey Randy,

The tank of course gets cloudy when I'm "fiddlin" with the tank, but this is different. Looking through the length of the tank it's just not crystal clear like it usually is.

I've added a total of 180ml of vinegar to my ATO container (I went ahead and did 45ml / gallon). Not all of that has been dosed into the tank yet.

I can't decide if I should add kalk with or without next time I fill the 5 gallon bucket...

Thanks again,
Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It certainly may be extra bacteria int the water. that isn't necessarily;y a problem, but may be unattractive. I prefer to dose without vinegar, but ordinary limewater is plenty adequate for my system.

[bdare]

Hey Randy,

One additional question... I also replaced my GFO and carbon on Friday. Since then I've had a problem keeping Alk up. It's been dropping about 1dkh / day.

Since the original reason I wanted to start adding more Kalk was to keep my alk from dropping I'm slightly irritated. :)

I've heard you say (well... read actually) that too much GFO or carbon can cause a drop in Alk. Could that be what's going on? I've got 2 phosban reactors running. The one with carbon is about 1/3 - 1/2 full of ROX. The reactor with GFO has about 2" of media (not sure how much...)

How does that work exactly (in lame man's terms ;)). If GFO is supposed to take up phosphate and carbon is supposed to take up DOCs... where does the consupmtion of Alk come into play?

Thanks again,
Ben

[DennisRB]

I found that when first adding vinegar the water gets clouded easily by bacteria, but its like the tank gets used to it, and then it isn't effected in the same way with even larger doses of vinegar.

[bdare]

Hey Dennis,

Thanks for the response! About how long did it take to clear up? If it's just a bacterail bloom I'm really not concearned... just unsightly as Randy noted.

Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Adding limewater can raise pH, and higher pH at the same alkalinity can actually increase demand for calcium and alkalinity, so that is one reason it may have dropped.

Another is reduced phosphate, which can increase calcification and also abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate. Finally, the iron in GFO can accelerate precipitation of calcium carbonate downstream from the GFO.

Any or all of these may have contributed to a lower in alkalinity.

Did you maintain whatever you have been using to maintain alkalinity?

Finally, vinegar in limewater can reduce the alkalinity until the vinegar is actually consumed by bacteria. So there may be an effect there as well, depending on how much unconsumed acetate there is still in the water when you test it.

[bdare]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12110651#post12110651 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Did you maintain whatever you have been using to maintain alkalinity?


I've been trying to slowly increase my Alk from 8-10. I realize 8 is still within range, but I'd like it to be higher (this is why I've been doing all the testing). According to the calculators I should add about 45ml of Alk for my 60 total volume of water to get dkh to go up by 1. Alk with go up immediately, however 12-24 hours later it has dropped substantially again.

I have both a LaMotte and API kit. I've been just doing spot checking with the API kit so I can't say EXACTLY how much I'm losing in 24 hours, but I've added problably 180ml of alk the past 3 days and I still can't reach 9 or 10dkh.

I'm maintaining alk for sure, but it's no fun... I'm hoping whatever is sucking it up so fast will stop so my kalk will take over...

I should add I top off about 1 gallon of saturated Kalk / day.

Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

According to the calculators I should add about 45ml of Alk for my 60 total volume of water to get dkh to go up by 1. Alk with go up immediately, however 12-24 hours later it has dropped substantially again.

Yep, that is exactly normal. It requires daily dosing. :)

[bdare]

Oh... if that's normal then I guess I won't worry so much, but I thought 45ml seemed like a lot for a daily dose. Before I was only adding that much every week.l

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, it depends on the tank and what's in it, but it is not unusal for alkalinity to drop 1 or more dKH per day. :)

[bdare]

It's a 40 Breeder. I do have a lot of SPS (about 17 of varying sizes. The largest are 4") which are growing quite well. I've also got a few LPS (3 blasto colonies, 3" open brain, Candy cane with 15 heads, and a single headed frog spawn) and a 4-5" derasa clam.

I've got about 50-60lbs of LR. The coralline is kinda growing...

So... I suppose so much for counting on my Kalk to keep up with demand?

[virginiadiver69]

I've just started doing this my self after I read here: http://web.archive.org/web/20030418110415/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/oct/bio/default.asp
about adding vinegar to limewater to increase potency and saw a recommendation of 12ml per liter of limewater as a full dose. The article then goes on to suggest 25% to start with. 3ml per liter is a BIG difference from 45ml !? What's the deal?

[SimilanRocks]

It's 45ml per "gallon" which is 12ml per liter.
I think the article that said start with 45ml per gallon is not correct. It should be the maximum according to the article above.

I'd start with 12ml per gallon.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The article then goes on to suggest 25% to start with. 3ml per liter is a BIG difference from 45ml !? What's the deal?

When Craig initially wrote that many years ago few people were using it. Since then, many, many folks have used the 45 mL/gallon dose just fine. Most people using limewater do not bother with vinegar (including me), but of those who do, most seem to use the 45 mL dose. But starting with less is certainly fine too. :)

[bdare]

I will say since adding vinegar my Ph has hit an all time low. When I woke up this morning it was at 7.91. That's a full point lower than my previous average for the morning of 8.01.

Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If your pH is low like that, I'd not choose to use vinegar with limewater. If you need a bit more boost to the calcium and alkalinity than normal saturated limewater can supply, and you cannot increase evaporation with fans and such, then I'd use some of a two part supplement along with limewater.

[DennisRB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12109773#post12109773 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DennisRB
I found that when first adding vinegar the water gets clouded easily by bacteria, but its like the tank gets used to it, and then it isn't effected in the same way with even larger doses of vinegar.

It was gone in like 1 or 2 days, thats while still dosing vinegar, however I have had a bacteria storm last for days when I put sugar in a another tank.

[bdare]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12118251#post12118251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
If your pH is low like that, I'd not choose to use vinegar with limewater. If you need a bit more boost to the calcium and alkalinity than normal saturated limewater can supply, and you cannot increase evaporation with fans and such, then I'd use some of a two part supplement along with limewater.

I can't belive I didn't think to add another fan first!!! I'll stop adding vinegar and add another fan.

Thanks again Randy!
Ben

[virginiadiver69]

Thanks for the reassurance Randy.
I also picked up a bottle of Kent Iron...Would you recommend that I hold off dosing this while I get used to my vinegar dosing regiment?
Should I test for Iron once I do start or just follow label instructions?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Iron is being added because you have macroalgae? I add an iron supplement for that reason, but probably wouldn't otherwise use iron supplements.

[bdare]

Hey Randy,

I think I just need you to settle my nerves / fears / concerns. I still feel like I'm adding a lot of 2 part to my tank for the inhabitants I have. I have a buddy with pretty much the EXACT same stocking as mine, same lighting. He does NOT dose kalk, but he only adds 20ml of each part on a daily basis.

I'm using recipie 1 of the 2 part recipe. 45ml just seems like a lot to me still...

When people have those situations where they keep dosing and dosing without seeing results what is usually the cause?

I will say I've gone a few days without adding the Ca part because I'm so focused on getting the alk up.

Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you do not see excessive precipitation of calcium carbonate on heaters, pumps, the glass, etc, there is really no big concern about dosing as much as is necessary to meet the demand, based on the alkalinity measurements. :)

You certainly should check magnesium and keep the max ph not too high, but all these do is reduce the precipitation of calcium carbonate. :)

[bdare]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12130538#post12130538 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
If you do not see excessive precipitation of calcium carbonate on heaters, pumps, the glass, etc, there is really no big concern about dosing as much as is necessary to meet the demand, based on the alkalinity measurements. :)

You certainly should check magnesium and keep the max ph not too high, but all these do is reduce the precipitation of calcium carbonate. :)

Hey Randy,

Thanks again for the response. I haven't seen any parcipitation and believe me when I say I've been checking cause of my worries :). My Mg is at 1410 at Ph is climbing after the Vinegar episode. I've been dosing my alk supplements in the morning to keep the Ph from getting too high during the dosing. Typically when I add my alk supplement it goes up by about .15 and then settles down. I guess I'm also worried about stressing the corals.

Thanks again!
Ben

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12126466#post12126466 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Iron is being added because you have macroalgae?
Yes.
Should I test ( is there even a test? ) or just follow label directions ( 1 cap per 50 gals weekly )?

[SimilanRocks]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12130597#post12130597 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bdare
My Mg is at 1410 at Ph is climbing after the Vinegar episode.
Ben

Do you get higher pH after adding vinegar? Hm I need to reread the article...

[bdare]

Hi,

No, the ph is climbing after I quit dosing kalk with vinegar. it got toooo low so I had to quit.

Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Should I test ( is there even a test? ) or just follow label directions ( 1 cap per 50 gals weekly )?

There is no test, nor typically any need to test for iron. Just dose a small amount and it is likely adequate. :)

Thanks again!

You're welcome. :)

[bdare]

Alright... things just aren't getting better. I really need some help here. I discovered I do have precipertation on my pumps and heater.

I havnen't had a major precip event, but it's obviously coming out of solutution on my hardware.

This morning my numbers were:
Mg - 1400
Ca - 400
Alk - 7.89

I simply CAN NOT get my alk any higher. Why not? Should I just leave it alone?

I've beed SLOWLLLLY adding alk to get it up today. 1 hour ago I dosed enough Ca portion to get my Ca to 450. I tested immediately afterwards and it was at 450. Mission accomplished!

BUT... even after adding another 45ml of the alk portion is was DOWN lower than it was this morning!!!!

I have no idea what is going on here and I'm getting extreemly frustrated. Please help.

Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I simply CAN NOT get my alk any higher. Why not? Should I just leave it alone?

It is OK where it is, but when you say cannot, that means you did what to try to boost it?

When do you add the two part? Where? What is the tank pH?

Which two part recipe?

[bdare]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12157198#post12157198 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I simply CAN NOT get my alk any higher. Why not? Should I just leave it alone?

It is OK where it is, but when you say cannot, that means you did what to try to boost it?

When do you add the two part? Where? What is the tank pH?

Which two part recipe?

Hey Randy,

I'm really trying to get my alk around 10. I've been trying to do it in 1 point increments. According to the calculators I need to add 45ml of the alk part to get my 60gallons up 1 dkh.

Yesterday I added it in the morning. The starting Ph was around 8.06. I added it over 1 hour making sure to do it SLOW. During the entire process the ph never went up more than .1. When I was done adding the entire dose the ph was at 8.17.

I had been adding it to the drain portion of my sump. Both my skimmer and the tank drain there so I assumed there would be suffiecent flow. I also added a little inside the overflow box.

I use recipie 1.

Thanks again,
Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But assuming it drops each day when corals and other organisms (and abiotic precipitation use it), then you may need to boost it beyond your target each day, and it drops back by the next dose.

SO what happens if you use 60 mL each day?

What size tank? The 40 in your sig line?

[bdare]

Hey Randy,

Happy Easter! And thanks for replying on a holiday!

Yes... Yesterday I added 90 ml over the course of about 12 hours with my last dose going in around 7:00PM just after lights out. At that time the Ph was around 8.3.

Using my LaMotte kit, I EAGERLY pressed the syringe to the point where it measured earlier in the morning assuming I could use that as a base line. To my dismay... my alk was LOWER!!!!

This is what's lead to my frustration. I simply don't understand what I could do differently. My Ph is low enough (I assume) to help prevent precipitation. I add the alk SLOOOOW. My Mg is high. I even added another 100ml yesterday.

I have a lot of faith in my tests. They are the same ones I used when I sent my samples to Marineland when they tested my low RC batch. The got pretty much the same numbers I did so I'm "fairly" certain it's not testing error.

EDIT: Yes... this is the 40 gallon. I have a 20H sump and an Octopus skimmer so... ABOUT 50-60 gallons.

Thanks again!
Ben

[bdare]

Just tested again...

Alk
LaMotte 6.72
API - 6

Ca - 450 (I doesed this last night)

Ph - 8.11

I really want to add more alk 2 part, but I'm so frustrated I just don' know what to do!

Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With precipitation on the pumps, perhaps one or more of your test results is in error (pH, calcium, alkalinity, or magnesium), or maybe you are just adding it too fast.

Try adding the same amount, but spread out over several additions, and to high flow areas so it mixes in quickly. Also, stick to low pH two parts for a while.

[bdare]

Hey Randy,

Since I posted last I've added another 50ml of the alk portion (over 2 hours).

Here are my numbers now after waiting 30minutes following my last dose...

Ph - 8.31
Ca - 440

Alk
LaMatte - 7.28
API - ~7.5 (not quite all the way yellow after the 7th drop)

I assume by suggesting a lower Ph additive that you are concluding due to the high local ph that calcium carbonate is precipitating as soon as I add it? I'm willing to try ANYTHING!

Thanks again,
Ben

[bdare]

I just put 2 1/4 cups of baking soda in the oven :)

Thank god my wife buys the big boxes.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, that is the concern. Is it my DIY you are using?

[bdare]

Yes. It is the DIY. I ordered all my supplies from bulkreefsupply.com

I'm also even more grateful my wife buys the big boxes of A&H, cause I realized by baking it I was making recipie 1 again :(

I'm gonna mix up some recipie 2 from:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/chem.htm and see what happens.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, but use the magnesium recipe from the revised recipe:

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

[bdare]

So does the Mg recipie change from recipie 1 and 2? Again, I just follwoed the directions from the bulkreefsupply website:

"Fill the last gallon jug ¾ to 4/5th with RO/DI water. This will make shaking and dissolving the solution much easier.

Take 5 level cupfuls of "Magnesium Chloride" and 3 level cupfuls of "Magnesium Sulfate" and mix together in the clean pail or bowl.

Add 1/3 of this mixture to the gallon jug and shake vigorously.

Repeat "Step 2" with another 1/3 of the Magnesium.
Add the remaining magnesium and repeat "Step 2" until dissolved."

Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, the recipe of the magnesium part is the same, but you add half as much when finishing a gallon of Recipe 2 (calcium and alk) as when finishing a gallon of Recipe 1 (calcium and alk).

[bdare]

Ok... So the recipie 2 portion of the alk seemed to work VERY well. My alk went up by a full point and Ca remained the same. Ph did drop by .1.

Is it possible to add 1/2 and 1/2 of each? 1/2 baked baking soda and 1/2 baking soda?

Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Yes, any ratio of the two is fine to use. Just keep track for figuring the calcium part. :)

[bdare]

Hey Randy,

I'm back... Tonight I tried mixing up 1/2 Sodium Carbonate and baking soda...

First I filled my gallon jug 3/4 full with water. I fully dissolved all the baking soda. As SOON as I poured in the soda ash... it turned to ROCKS.

Is there a better way I should mix the two?

Thanks,
Ben

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is hard to dissolve these alkalinity components.

Did you add as much total water as Recipe 2 requires? It takes more when you use unbaked baking soda.

Try warming the solution. :)

[bdare]

Hey Randy,

I did add the right amount of water. When I orinignaly mixed recipie 1 I had no problem getting it all to disolve. When I say it made rocks... I mean ROCKS. And large ones. Not just clumps. I tried mixing the solution for a good 10 minutes and made no progress.

I finally dumped it all out and the rocks were H A R D. No amount of mixing was going to break these guys up.

As you know... recipie 1 calls for 2 cups of soda ash. I added 1 cup of baking soda (which dissolved) and then the 1 cup of soda ash...

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The right amount of water for Recipe 2, right, not recipe 1?

Yes, even so it can be quite hard to get these things to dissolve. Some folks resort to warming and even boiling the water. Boiling will convert a bicarbonate solution to carbonate, however. :)

[bdare]

Isn't it still a gallon for each recipie?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, yes, but half as much solids with Recipe 2.

[bdare]

Soo... there aren't any chemical reactions that occur from the scenario I've described?

I'm telling you... these weren't your typical clumps. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No reactions, but many people have gotten such rock lumps from Recipe 1 alone. Keep stirring and warming, maybe boiling it. :)