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bob_trrnt
03/17/2008, 03:39 PM
Looking to use a mineral mud or miracle mud. any suggestions? New tank setup and have never used a refugium before and I want to use macro algae.

Thanks in advance.

bertoni
03/17/2008, 04:00 PM
Moved to New to the Hobby for more views.

What kinds of macroalgae are planned for the system? Most don't require or benefit from a substrate.

bob_trrnt
03/17/2008, 06:51 PM
Cheatomorpha mainly. calerpa Iv'e used in the main tank in the past but seems to get a little messy and uncontrollable.

Percula9
03/17/2008, 07:09 PM
A deep sand bed will be just as good as the mud and less expensive. A bed of 3-5 inches will be sufficient.

Aquarist007
03/17/2008, 07:26 PM
I agree, deep sand bed, reef rubble, and chaeto macro covers a wide range of invert needs

bertoni
03/17/2008, 11:16 PM
I might put a thin layer of reef rubble to give some habit for mysid shrimp and other small animals, but I wouldn't add sand or mud.

tmz
03/17/2008, 11:39 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12117416#post12117416 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I might put a thin layer of reef rubble to give some habit for mysid shrimp and other small animals, but I wouldn't add sand or mud. I agree . Iuse a bare bottom with chaetomorpha and red kelp. I keep rubble in a seaparate unlighted bin. Mysis and other microfuana do find habitat in the chaetomorpha and since it traps a bit or detrius they feed well.

Aquarist007
03/18/2008, 08:20 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12113701#post12113701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bob_trrnt
Looking to use a mineral mud or miracle mud. any suggestions? New tank setup and have never used a refugium before and I want to use macro algae.

Thanks in advance.

It would appear like you have been missed so:

[welcome]

chevo69
03/18/2008, 09:05 AM
I have sugar sand and blade calerpa in my fuge it does great!

Aquarist007
03/18/2008, 10:14 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12119070#post12119070 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chevo69
I have sugar sand and blade calerpa in my fuge it does great!

think twice about using caulerpa:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/nftt/index.php

Tswifty
03/18/2008, 10:17 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12117416#post12117416 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I might put a thin layer of reef rubble to give some habit for mysid shrimp and other small animals, but I wouldn't add sand or mud.
Curious about this statement... Why would you not use a DSB in combination with the Cheato?

chevo69
03/18/2008, 10:29 AM
From what I have heard the blade doesnt go sexual like the others?

Aquarist007
03/18/2008, 10:31 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12119648#post12119648 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
Curious about this statement... Why would you not use a DSB in combination with the Cheato?

i think that was assumed tswifty----deep sand bed--layer of reef rubble and the chaeto

IMO if you have a mid range sand bed in the main tank then you need a deep sandbed in the refug to replace some of the life in the sand bed of the main tank.
esp with alot of vetrans advocating you stir up sand beds in the main tank once and a while
It makes alot of sense if you read this article on how sand beds work:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php

SSpiro
03/18/2008, 11:44 AM
Good read, thanks for posting!

Tswifty
03/18/2008, 12:17 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12119757#post12119757 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
i think that was assumed tswifty----deep sand bed--layer of reef rubble and the chaeto

IMO if you have a mid range sand bed in the main tank then you need a deep sandbed in the refug to replace some of the life in the sand bed of the main tank.
esp with alot of vetrans advocating you stir up sand beds in the main tank once and a while
It makes alot of sense if you read this article on how sand beds work:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php
Yes I am famiar with RSB... I just saw that someone had mentioned a BB refugium with cheato, and was curious to the reasoning/benefits (if there are any) to doing such.

Thanks for the link!

mash2k
03/18/2008, 12:34 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12119626#post12119626 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
think twice about using caulerpa:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/nftt/index.php

I think that this is a myth in the hobby. According to the many advanced aquarists in the hobby, caulerpa is a better medium for handling excess nutrients than chaetomorpha is. I don't even run my lights 24/7 either. I have my fuge lighting on for an 18 hours cycle. As long as you keep the caulerpa in a shallow environment it will not go "sexual". I have used both caulerpa and chaeto and I prefer the caulerpa.

Aquarist007
03/18/2008, 12:58 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12120708#post12120708 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mash2k
I think that this is a myth in the hobby. According to the many advanced aquarists in the hobby, caulerpa is a better medium for handling excess nutrients than chaetomorpha is. I don't even run my lights 24/7 either. I have my fuge lighting on for an 18 hours cycle. As long as you keep the caulerpa in a shallow environment it will not go "sexual". I have used both caulerpa and chaeto and I prefer the caulerpa.

interesting--why do they say chaulerpa is a better medium for handling excess nutrients then chaeto?
I am not doubting what you say--just curious and open minded;)

mash2k
03/18/2008, 02:24 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12120860#post12120860 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
interesting--why do they say chaulerpa is a better medium for handling excess nutrients then chaeto?
I am not doubting what you say--just curious and open minded;)

Capn,

I honestly cannot remember where on this site that I read that. I have read more than one article about it also, but for the life of me I cannot remember where! The articles I read were by the usual "experts" in marine aquarium keeping that write these articles on Reef Central.

From my own experience, I have used both and have found that caulerpa seemed to work better for me. That said, my refugiums have always had low flow which seems to foster better results with caulerpa. I have been led to understand that chaeto likes a high flow and maybe that was the reason I had less success with it in my reef tanks.

Aquarist007
03/18/2008, 06:43 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12121529#post12121529 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mash2k
Capn,

I honestly cannot remember where on this site that I read that. I have read more than one article about it also, but for the life of me I cannot remember where! The articles I read were by the usual "experts" in marine aquarium keeping that write these articles on Reef Central.

From my own experience, I have used both and have found that caulerpa seemed to work better for me. That said, my refugiums have always had low flow which seems to foster better results with caulerpa. I have been led to understand that chaeto likes a high flow and maybe that was the reason I had less success with it in my reef tanks.

I have always had great success with the chaeto and low flow--then my focus as always been on increasing the number of inverts and useful bacteria in the tank.
I had some caulerpa right at the beginning but got rid of it do to the evasive properties of it.
Probably with your low flow you have not had the problem of caulerpa spores entering back into your water column and evading the tank--that would be another concern of mine.

as far as which consumes more nitrates and phosphates I wouldn't know---I wonder if any one has tested for that.

Good discussion--I wonder if I should start a thread in the reef discussion thread--caulerpa vs chaeto?

bertoni
03/18/2008, 07:20 PM
Caulerpa does seem to grow more rapidly than Chaetomorpha, but it's invasive and sometimes will sporulate. I tend to avoid it nowadays.

As far as deep sand beds in refugia, I tend to doubt that they do much good. I think the space is likely better invested in a macroalga.

Tswifty
03/18/2008, 07:41 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12123921#post12123921 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
As far as deep sand beds in refugia, I tend to doubt that they do much good. I think the space is likely better invested in a macroalga.
Do you think a Remote Deep Sand Bed is beneficial? If so, how is a RDSB best utilized?

Do you think Cheato used BB with LR rubble is a better alternative? If so why, and would a seperated combination of the 2 would be the "best case" scenario? Or do you believe one is ultimately superior to the other?

Sorry to blast you with some questions, but I'd like to try and find out some more about this concept now, because I'm in the process of deciding on what type of natural filtration to utilize in my reef setup.

Sorry... not trying to hijack the thread.

bob_trrnt
03/18/2008, 07:42 PM
I agree the caulerpa seems to grow well, I just have run into problems with it in the past. It has been about two years since my last reef and I thank you for the insight. I think I have gotten a lot of good feedaback. I've got a three inch sand bed with a mix of fine crushed coral and live sand so I will try the route of using rubble.
What light spectrum would you run on the refugium. I was thinking 6500 K.

Aquarist007
03/18/2008, 07:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12124113#post12124113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bob_trrnt
I agree the caulerpa seems to grow well, I just have run into problems with it in the past. It has been about two years since my last reef and I thank you for the insight. I think I have gotten a lot of good feedaback. I've got a three inch sand bed with a mix of fine crushed coral and live sand so I will try the route of using rubble.
What light spectrum would you run on the refugium. I was thinking 6500 K.

i use a 25 watt energy saver bulb rated at 100 watts

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4521.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4527.jpg

Aquarist007
03/18/2008, 07:49 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12123921#post12123921 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
Caulerpa does seem to grow more rapidly than Chaetomorpha, but it's invasive and sometimes will sporulate. I tend to avoid it nowadays.

As far as deep sand beds in refugia, I tend to doubt that they do much good. I think the space is likely better invested in a macroalga.

has a thread on chaeto vs caulpera been run in the last while--not to my knowledge but you lived on here longer than me:lol:

bertoni
03/18/2008, 07:51 PM
The term "deep sand bed" gets used to describe two very different ways of trying to do filtration. A "live" deep sand bed depends on animals living in the sand to consume solid wastes and pump water into the sand for denitrification. Calfo's "DSB in a bucket" uses very high flow to pump dissolved nutrients into a sand substrate.

I don't think Calfo's approach can work in a refugium because the flow would need to be very high. That's not the way he's indicated it should be used.

For a live DSB in a refugium, there are two issues. The size likely needs to be fairly large (maybe the footprint of a 40g tank or so) to do much useful, and the flow in the tank needs to be high enough to move solid debris to the refugium. Both are possible, but I think that's not very common.

bob_trrnt
03/18/2008, 08:01 PM
the enrergy saver seems simple and effective. Any Idea what the spectrum on that bulb would be. I am trying to be cost effective with this. I,m runnind one 250 in the main tank at 1400K and was hopping to just add some moon lights. I've have a few new 10 K laying round If that is the rout I go.

mash2k
03/19/2008, 06:53 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12123614#post12123614 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I have always had great success with the chaeto and low flow--then my focus as always been on increasing the number of inverts and useful bacteria in the tank.
I had some caulerpa right at the beginning but got rid of it do to the evasive properties of it.
Probably with your low flow you have not had the problem of caulerpa spores entering back into your water column and evading the tank--that would be another concern of mine.

as far as which consumes more nitrates and phosphates I wouldn't know---I wonder if any one has tested for that.

Good discussion--I wonder if I should start a thread in the reef discussion thread--caulerpa vs chaeto?

I agree that this topic will be a good discussion. Don't get me wrong; I would never say that one macro is better than another. I have just had better results with caulerpa.

I set my current sump up with the duplex style refugia, much like Mr Wilson had outlined in another post. I have a lower benthic zone and the upper part of my eggcrate is rubble and caulerpa. It will take some time before I can report results. If the caulerpa doesn't work out, I will switch to chaetomorpha!

mash2k
03/19/2008, 06:55 AM
Capn, I also use the same curly 26 watt compact flourescent light that you do. Your chaeto looks fantastic by the way.

Aquarist007
03/19/2008, 08:45 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12126831#post12126831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mash2k
Capn, I also use the same curly 26 watt compact flourescent light that you do. Your chaeto looks fantastic by the way.

thanks--do you have the link to that thread by Mr. Wilson--would love to read it

mash2k
03/19/2008, 08:59 AM
Here you go:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=969713

This is another one of those forever lasting posts. Make sure you read it all carefully. He uses both types of macroalgae in his sumps.

tmz
03/19/2008, 09:44 AM
Caulerpa problems are not a myth, I've used it and dealt with the mess of sporulation.

mash2k
03/19/2008, 09:53 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12127964#post12127964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Caulerpa problems are not a myth, I've used it and dealt with the mess of sporulation.

Tom, I agree that caulerpa can be problematic when it goes sexual. All one needs to do to keep it from going sexual is to keep it in a shallow environment. You don't have to keep your lights on 24/7. I use a reverse photoperiod: Metal halides 8 hours/fuge lights 16 hours. That allows the caulerpa to grow, unlike caulerpa that is exposed to consistent 24 hour lighting.

mash2k
03/19/2008, 10:04 AM
Tom,
Not to cause confusion, but I meant that the myth was that one cannot keep caulerpa without it eventually going sexual. Here is an excerpt from another post:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10253036#post10253036 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Chaeto is good if you want an algae that won't get sucked into pumps or spread throughout the sump. The down side is it's a slow grower, and it traps detritus. It also tends to grow in a large ball, with the areas exposed to light flourishing, while the greater shadowed area slowly dies off. The die off often goes unnoticed as the bound nitrate and and phosphate is returned to the system.

Algae will not grow well in a 24 hour photoperiod. Photosynthesis requires a six hour period of darkness for proper respiration. A 16 hour photoperiod will not lead to seasonal cues (shorter days) that cause algae to reproduce.

Allowing caulerpa to overgrow the space to the point of shadowing itself is the most common environmental cue (stress) for sexual reproduction. A shallow tray of caulerpa will grow quickly, remove more organics, will not crash (sexually reproduce), and will not trap detritus. Caulerpa is also more useful, as it's a food source for the fish in the display tank.

tmz
03/19/2008, 10:12 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12128057#post12128057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mash2k
Tom, I agree that caulerpa can be problematic when it goes sexual. All one needs to do to keep it from going sexual is to keep it in a shallow environment. You don't have to keep your lights on 24/7. I use a reverse photoperiod: Metal halides 8 hours/fuge lights 16 hours. That allows the caulerpa to grow, unlike caulerpa that is exposed to consistent 24 hour lighting. :) Thanks, I like caulerpa but now use red kelp and chaetomorpha. I also use reverse photo period. I might try a sprig or two of caulerpa again. How deep is shallow?

mash2k
03/19/2008, 10:33 AM
Great question. I am currently experimenting on that one. I have a 30 gallon sump that has an 11" glass partition between the skimmer/overflow entry and my duplex refugium. I have roughly 5 inches of water for my caulerpa to grow in. After I get home from work, I will take a pic and post it.

Aquarist007
03/19/2008, 10:49 AM
I linked this thread to "refugiums and macro algae--the good, bad and ugly"

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12128512#post12128512

tmz
03/19/2008, 11:00 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12128400#post12128400 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mash2k
Great question. I am currently experimenting on that one. I have a 30 gallon sump that has an 11" glass partition between the skimmer/overflow entry and my duplex refugium. I have roughly 5 inches of water for my caulerpa to grow in. After I get home from work, I will take a pic and post it. ;) Thanks

Rouselb
04/09/2008, 04:10 PM
I have a 75 gal fuge, i have a 2inch substrate, and both cheato and caulerpa. The caulerpa grows under the cheato, and its been running this way for years. I run lighting on a reverse cycle. If/when caulerpa begins to spore, small white spores form on all the leafs. If you see this happening, you can simply remove it. Only once have i encountered what i thought may be the beginning of this, and i removed that leaf and some near by. I dont really trim that often. I do weekly water changes 10%. I have a high throughput at about 3000gph. I used MM for a year or two, but i really cant tell if substrate is needed. Has anyone removed the substrate in the fuge after it had been running for a yr or two?

Aquarist007
04/09/2008, 04:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12293166#post12293166 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rouselb
I have a 75 gal fuge, i have a 2inch substrate, and both cheato and caulerpa. The caulerpa grows under the cheato, and its been running this way for years. I run lighting on a reverse cycle. If/when caulerpa begins to spore, small white spores form on all the leafs. If you see this happening, you can simply remove it. Only once have i encountered what i thought may be the beginning of this, and i removed that leaf and some near by. I dont really trim that often. I do weekly water changes 10%. I have a high throughput at about 3000gph. I used MM for a year or two, but i really cant tell if substrate is needed. Has anyone removed the substrate in the fuge after it had been running for a yr or two?

in a refugium the real value is the chaeto and or caulpera and its ability to export nitrates and phosphates from the system. If this is your purpose of the refugium then nothing is needed but the macro algae.
However if your main purpose of the refugium is to produce a greater variety of inverts, phytoplankton and useful bacteria for the display tank then reef rubble and a sand bed give a habitat for the type of creatures that live in and around it.

In both cases IMO, a deep and bed is not needed

Aquarist007
04/09/2008, 04:52 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12128057#post12128057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mash2k
Tom, I agree that caulerpa can be problematic when it goes sexual. All one needs to do to keep it from going sexual is to keep it in a shallow environment. You don't have to keep your lights on 24/7. I use a reverse photoperiod: Metal halides 8 hours/fuge lights 16 hours. That allows the caulerpa to grow, unlike caulerpa that is exposed to consistent 24 hour lighting.

and yet I have read the opposite--that keeping a light on 24/7 is suppose to prevent caulpera going sexual
IMO there is no gurantee that it won't sporalate in the fuge and that the spores won't end up in the display tank.
Chaeto doesn't have that same caution---and they both export phosphates and nitrates---so I gues it comes down to how big a risk taker you are;)

devgru
04/30/2008, 08:14 PM
i was hoping to start a new fuge...actually 2.a 40g under main and above sump with a 4-6" DSB and approx 200gph or so flow rate coming of a 't'd main overflow containing mangroves and 1/2 my cheato and some rubble.the 2nd is a 10g i would like to place above my main with miracle mud about 2" the other 1/2 of chato and some more rubble run off a MJ400/600.

any advice?

Aquarist007
04/30/2008, 08:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12444622#post12444622 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by devgru
i was hoping to start a new fuge...actually 2.a 40g under main and above sump with a 4-6" DSB and approx 200gph or so flow rate coming of a 't'd main overflow containing mangroves and 1/2 my cheato and some rubble.the 2nd is a 10g i would like to place above my main with miracle mud about 2" the other 1/2 of chato and some more rubble run off a MJ400/600.

any advice?

what is your purpose for having two separate fuges?

SkyPapa
04/30/2008, 09:02 PM
I have chaeto in a BB refuge and a RSDB (for 3 yrs) and a Phos reactor.
Not sure if the rsdb helps but my 'trates are less than 5.
I still battle HA 'cause I feed a lot. Too many fish.

However for Chaeto vs Caulerpa, RH-F keeps a lot of caulerpa and has said it has never "gone sexual" for him in 10 years IIRC.
OTH, Mr. Bertoni has just said he uses chaeto.
Even the resident experts can agree to disagree.

davidryder
06/02/2008, 11:07 PM
Refugiums are nice.

InsaneClownFish
06/03/2008, 12:15 AM
1. Fuge. Cheato. Moderate to slow flow. Tumble the cheato.

2. Listen to bertoni.

:) Enjoy your new reef..

Insainoreefer
06/28/2008, 04:17 AM
Is there a rule of thumb for the size of the 'fuge to the size of the main display? I've always heard as large as you can fit, but I don't know how valid that is.

tmz
06/28/2008, 10:15 AM
No rule I know of. I believe there are references in the litterature that shoot for 20% of tank size in order to maximize it's effect. Even a small one is a plus.

Aquarist007
06/28/2008, 10:41 AM
everyone has different tank conditions so they have different setups to meet them.
I indexed the refugium site so you could have a look at the variety of refugiums that are out here:

Index Time
For those joining the thread for the first time:
I started this thread orginally to show different ways of setting up refugiums so thanks goes out to the following reefers how participated sometimes many times

Jefe112234
Tswifty
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...25&pagenumber=1

mrkalel
Captaincoral
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...25&pagenumber=2


adtravels
gsxunv04
sltloser
PaulB
aaroneous
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...25&pagenumber=3

acrocrab
3dreef
jnewman
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...25&pagenumber=4

tbittner
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...25&pagenumber=5

cbuiz
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...25&pagenumber=7

habs#1
J schottenfed
chrismunn
Sci-ed-zoo
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...25&pagenumber=9

tony45power
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=12

2farnorth
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=13

skaterzero23
sk8ergolie
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=14

misst
dzeadow
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=16

sjm817
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=18

cviacona
MrRoo
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=19

gsxun04
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=20

bergzy
franburcks
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=22

kmcartney
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=23

mkbtank
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=31

rahyoto
melev
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=34

mrkalel
oceanspray
kingricky
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=36

albativo
smspring
mudskipper
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=37

slakker
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=39

Special thanks to Melev who featured this thread in this months Reef Keeping magazine plus a great slide show of many of the refugiums ideas in the thread
Melev you are one heck of a good guy, a great help, and extemely knowledgable in reef keeping

Aquarist007
06/28/2008, 10:50 AM
drat--I guess you can't copy links from another post

Okay so if you look at the page number at the end that should help