Overdose on lime water.

[DennisRB]

Its is possible to have too much alkalinity and/or calcium from using limewater to replace evaporated water to the point coral and livestock could be harmed?

I was under the impression that unless you have precipitation, the levels would never be too high.

So whats the verdict?

[FunkieReefJunkie]

Yes. Years ago I brought alkalinity so high from kalk my xenia literally blistered at the stalk. It's actually an interesting phenomena in xenia to watch because as a long as you bring the alk down it will pass without irreparable harm to them.

There's been observations of associations of low potassium and high alkalinity causing tissue necrosis from the base up in sps.

If you're afraid of spiking your alk and or pH trying to meet the calcium demands of your tank with kalk there's always the option of adding vinegar to the the solution.

[DennisRB]

Thanks. I have been adding vinegar to the solution, but doesn't that just allow even more calcium and alk to get into the tank? My PH is 8.2 on a salifert kit.

I had an acro STN from the bottom up so I am thinking I may have too much alk and an anenome died. I haven't been using a calcium or alk test kit although I will be getting one pretty soon. (yes yes I know I should already have one) I always thought I could never go too high if I kept it under the precipitation point. But I guess I was wrong.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But I guess I was wrong.

I think you are basically correct, and would not attribute any problem you had to excess alkalinity unless you actually measured it to be excessively high.

It is fairly unlikely but possible to get excessive alkalinity and calcium from limewater. It is true that the negative feedback from the elevated pH, calcium, and alkalinity drives greater demand (both precipitation and consumption by organisms), and so limewater is often self limiting.

I would not worry about this unless you actually observe alkalinity higher than you want.


If you're afraid of spiking your alk and or pH trying to meet the calcium demands of your tank with kalk there's always the option of adding vinegar to the the solution.

pH yes, but not alkalinity, since it will allow higher alkalinity.

[DennisRB]

Thanks Randy. So my basic assumption was correct hey?

I thought I could get away with not using a test kit by just dosing limewater as a top off, using precipitation as a sort of test that I have gone to high. However I have never reached the precipitation point.

I have been adding about 300ml of vinegar to my 60 litre top off container with more than enough lime to reach the saturation point, and monitoring my PH to make sure it doesn't skyrocket. How high could I go before I encounter probs?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd suggest at least tracking pH and alkalinity for a while to make sure it is running OK. I rarely test because I know my system runs OK with limewater like that, but I'd want to see evidence on other systems before assuming it was OK.

I personally would not add vinegar unless the pH got significantly over 8.5. My tank usually runs pH 8.35 to 8.5 or so.

[DennisRB]

Randy, does adding vinegar to the lime water decrease tank PH? I thought that it just allowed more lime to be dissolved and if there was enough lime in the mixture the PH of the mixture would always be the same?

I thought you would have to add the vinegar directly to the tank to reduce PH, or use less than the stoichiometric amount of lime in the lime water?

Funkie. Are you sure your probs were not related to an overly high PH rather than just overly high alk?

[FunkieReefJunkie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12172397#post12172397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
x

x


If you're afraid of spiking your alk and or pH trying to meet the calcium demands of your tank with kalk there's always the option of adding vinegar to the the solution.

pH yes, but not alkalinity, since it will allow higher alkalinity.

Thank you for clarifying this Randy. The idea that pH and alk aren't inherently correlated despite how many times it's been hammered into my head still has yet to become solidified in the brain matter. :hammer: Frankly, the Calfo marbles in a bowl analogy (too much is too much no matter what it is) is what sticks.

Dennis, your question like so many others would have a sure answer if I kept tank diaries. I've attempted it in the past but some where along the way I tire of it. I'm pretty sure the pH was high as well... but the memory s e e m s to d r i f t into the a b y s s. :lmao:

The only point to my reply was to back up my, "Yes bad things can happen by exceeding levels with kalk even without a precipitation event."

Out of here.:wave:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, does adding vinegar to the lime water decrease tank PH? I thought that it just allowed more lime to be dissolved and if there was enough lime in the mixture the PH of the mixture would always be the same?

If you add enough vinegar it will lower tank pH yes, relative to adding no vinegar to limewater. Whether limewater plus vinegar raises or lowers tank pH relative to doing nothing (no limewater at all) will depend on the exact amounts used. the ph lowering effect of vinegar (either in limewater or added directly) comes first when it is added, and then a second round later when the vinegar is metabolized by organisms to CO2.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for clarifying this Randy.

:thumbsup:

Happy Reefing. :)

[DennisRB]

OK I just got salifert calcium and alk test kits.

I have so much calcium that I needed to fill the dropper syringe again for the solution to change colour. I had to add about 1.1ml. This is with a half spoon of the powder so it says to double the result! If this is true I have like 1000ppm. I doubt that but lets say its VERY high.

Alk is 14dkh. or 5m.

pH is 8.3

Should I be worried? What are the upper safe limits, and what are optimum values. What should I be doing right now?

I have stopped using kalk.

[bertoni]

Wow, that's the highest Ca reading I've seen. I'm not sure that I believe it. I would try some water changes, personally, to lower the calcium, but many people have let the tank consume the excess and not had problems.

I don't know of any specific known safe levels, but the usual recommended ranges are 7-11 dKH and 350-450 ppm calcium. The higher levels might encourage more growth.

[DennisRB]

I am suspect on the reading. I will try again but in any case it is extremely high. Maybe my test kit is a dud?

[bertoni]

Could be. I'd try testing some freshly-mixed saltwater, as a sanity test.

[DennisRB]

I redone the test. I'm the dud. I made the mistake of using half the powder scoop, but still used 2ml of water instead of 1ml. I repeated the test again with a full scoop and 2ml of water, the result was the same, but no need to double the result. I used just over a full syringe, which is off the scale over at 500ppm! I'm guessing that is good right?

As for the alk would my readings of 14dKH or 5 meq/l be dangerous to livestock?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A reading just over 500 ppm about matches some salt mixes (what mix are you using?), and while not a big deal, I'd personally let it drop back to 380-450 ppm or so, matching seawater better (the plan below won't accomplish that big of a drop, but will help a bit; using a low calcium mix may also help). :)

I'd also let the alkalinity drop.

I would stop any additives for a few days (except top off water). Then when alkalinity is back in the say 7-9 dKH range, restart limewater using about half or a quarter as much lime in it., if that is what you are still using. Then measure again after a few days and see where you are. :)

[DennisRB]

I use natural sea water. I have stopped with the lime and only use RO water as of today. I will monitor calcium and alk every few days and start with a less concentrated dose as you suggest to maintain a lower more natural level. How long might it take for my alk to drop down?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How long it takes depends on the demand in the tank. In a medium to high demand tank it may drop 1-3 dKH per day or so. In a low demand tank it may be a bit slower.

Do you collect the NSW yourself?

Do you do routine water changes?

[DennisRB]

I pay to have it delivered. Its tested for nutrients before I get it. I have never done a water change since the tank was relocated 3 months ago. (I don't have any algae or nutrient probs).

I had no water container to hold it and it comes in 1000L deliveries. However I just got a 1000L container and was planning on getting it filled ASAP so I can do some overdue changes, but the tank is leaching phosphates! So I need to clean it out and flush it more until it stops leaching phosphates. My tap water reads 0ppm and the tap water I filled in reads 2ppm after circulating in there for a few days! The tank used to hold detergent and some of it has dried to the insides of the tank. I think if I blast it with high pressure water and rinse it for a while it might come good, I hope.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What sort of tank?

How do you know it is leaching? Just the 2 ppm TDS?

FWIW, even CO2 from the air can raise TDS a bit, and certainly some natural dust and salty droplets from a skimmer can push TDS way up. I would not assume it is leaching anything of concern. Even if it is leaching something, I would not assume it is phosphate unless you measure it directly.

That said, cleaning it is a fine plan. :)
.

[DennisRB]

Its a IBC. I used a salifert phosphate test kit on it. It has a reading of 2ppm of phosphate. I don't have a TDS meter.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, I'd certainly give it a give clean out. :)