Cooling alternatives to running a Chiller... ?

[tonyespinoza]

I'm planning a 200g display with 160g sump/fuge.

The display is shallow (18" water height) and 36" x 72" (rimless/braceless).

I'm planning to light with 6x 400W HQI (20K) in mini-lumenarc reflectors, but probably pretty high, maybe 18" off the surface.

In addition to running fans across the surface of the display, I'm hoping to dissipate heat in the sump. I remember reading somewhere of someone having water run across a sheet of acrylic against a set of fans (increasing evap) and getting a real temperature decrease this way.

Is there anyone out there running alternative methods of cooling?

I will certainly have a chiller in place, but want to design the system to minimize it's usage. The ambient temperature here stays below 80 almost year around, and with so much surface area to work with in the sump (34" wide?), I'm hopeful that some alternative method could help minimize the electrical.

[GuySmilie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12250355#post12250355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tonyespinoza
....Is there anyone out there running alternative methods of cooling?....
Work fine - last long time.
(cheap too)

http://www.reefugium.com/pix/chiller.jpg

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I use cold tap water circulated through a plastic coil in my sump, then out to my yard to water plants. It works very well. It is on a temperature controller, and costs next to nothing to run, especially since I would water anyway.

But it won't work if your tap water runs up to close to tank temperatures.

[tonyespinoza]

irrigation tap water is a good idea! what kind of plastic coil did you find?

[tonyespinoza]

the tank is peninsula style so i could also put in a fan to the outside to suck air in or push air out at the sump and/or display level. my question on this is how to avoid making the room too drafty... should i use a bathroom fan? would those work horizontally, or would they be too "leaky"? the climate here is such that we only heat - we never need to cool, so maybe this is a bad idea...

[adam1980]

Plum your sump into the basement. I have my sump there, My tank never gets to hot or to cold. Good luck!

[coralnut99]

I remember a thread a long time ago where someone routed his tank's drains into a a 4 inch PVC wye and connected a fan to the curved, downward-facing opening. I wish I still had the link, so hopefully you get the picture. I'm goona give this one a shot in addition to the usual fans running over the sump.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

irrigation tap water is a good idea! what kind of plastic coil did you find?

I just use several hundred feet of thin plastic tubing from Home Depot. Polypropylene, I think. It's all coiled up. :)

[Untamed12]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12254287#post12254287 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
irrigation tap water is a good idea! what kind of plastic coil did you find?

I just use several hundred feet of thin plastic tubing from Home Depot. Polypropylene, I think. It's all coiled up. :)

You've got enough normal pressure in your household supply to push water through several hundred feet of tubing? I'm assuming you are using standard 1/4" stuff....

I was going to look into specialized heat exchangers, but if a bunch of cheap tubing is effective that is certainly more cost effective.

[wld1783]

If you have a sump room put the largest water container and plumb it with the sump. Flow does not have to be high, I use a small ehim pump (80 GPH) from the sump to a 150 gal tub then gravity back to the sump. This cools my 330 gal and allows for easy water changes. Just drain the tub and fill it back up with RO water and mix, its offline for only 4 days while it fills.

This keeps my 330 gal SPS between 76-79 with 2 400 watt Mh and 3 160 watt VHO

Also that a lot of light are you sure you need that much?

Bill

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You've got enough normal pressure in your household supply to push water through several hundred feet of tubing? I'm assuming you are using standard 1/4" stuff....

Yep, regular tap pressure is adequate. I even dial it back in the early part of the spring/summer when the water is cooler and has a bigger effect. :)

[atvdave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12252119#post12252119 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I use cold tap water circulated through a plastic coil in my sump, then out to my yard to water plants. It works very well. It is on a temperature controller, and costs next to nothing to run, especially since I would water anyway.

But it won't work if your tap water runs up to close to tank temperatures.

This is what I do also but not for irrigation, I run my supply tap water through 100' of tube through my sump to supply my RO/DI water.

In the summer I'm always making more water dew to higher evaporation rates. It also brings the water temp up on my tap water for my RO/DI so I don't have as much wast water.

[sjames]

do you put a booster pump after the 100' of tubeing? Id think youd see a pretty good pressure drop after 100' of small tubeing.

[atvdave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12256845#post12256845 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjames
do you put a booster pump after the 100' of tubeing? Id think youd see a pretty good pressure drop after 100' of small tubeing.

No, as with any RO system the PSI drop is only momentary. The filters only let so much water through, and the restrictor valve only lets so much through as well.

It only takes a few sec's for the PSI to get back up to system PSI.

This will happen regardless of how much tubing you have in your system 1' to ????'

[JHemdal]

We've use the technique Randy is talking about as an emergency fix whenever a main chiller on any of our coldwater tanks breaks down. I've also never had a problem pushing tap water through 100 feet of tubing (although our tanks are larger, so I was using 1/2"). The only problem that we've run into is that when you need it the most (e.g. summer) the tap water is running at 68 degrees and the benefit is greatly reduced. If you don't have access to a temperature controller that will actuate the water valve, you can just turn the water flow up or down to get marginal control, and them have a heater set to turn on if the tank were to overcool for some reason.

Here is an excerpt from my Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques book where I describe a case history of using a fan to cool a large tank:

In one example, when a 1500 gallon reef exhibit was test-filled, it was discovered that the light coming in through the skylights, the additional metal halide lighting and the large number of pumps all contributed to raising the aquarium’s water temperature to 83 degrees, six degrees above the target temperature of 77 degrees. A 20” - 1/6th hp fan with airflow of 7500 CFM, was attached above the tank, directing air horizontally down the length of the aquarium, with the lower edge of the fan about 6” above the surface of the water. This lowered the water temperature to within a scope of 73 to 77 degrees. However, this wide temperature range was not acceptable, and was caused by the variations in the evaporation rate resulting from changing humidity levels and daily fluctuations in the room’s air temperature. By plugging the fan into a Goldline chiller controller (model SP-33) it was possible to reduce this temperature range to one degree, between 76 and 77 degrees. The controller would now operate the fan when the aquarium water warmed up in the heat of the afternoon, and then be turned off in the early evening when the water was cooler.

Jay Hemdal

[toothman]

My chiller is still in the box 2 yrs later. Our systems sound similar. I have a large 200 plus sump in the basement next to the air handler for the central air. Other choice could be add a duct to the central air to the stand base.

[tonyespinoza]

lots of great ideas... heading off to the new house to investigate the possibilities... i love the irrigation concept!

[DinX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12252796#post12252796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralnut99
I remember a thread a long time ago where someone routed his tank's drains into a a 4 inch PVC wye and connected a fan to the curved, downward-facing opening. I wish I still had the link, so hopefully you get the picture. I'm goona give this one a shot in addition to the usual fans running over the sump.

it's called bong cooling. It's mainly used by people who use watercooling for their computers. It works like this:

http://tweakers.net/ext/f/IcWUAyAYQjAR1IWTvONkoMmQ/full.png

I don't need to explain where they got the name from :p
Experience with people who use it on their computers are pretty good. The only downside is that it evaporates alot of water en you also loose a bit with because of the spray that escapes. you can solve that by placing a bit of foam in the top, and making the top high enough.

Peopel who use it for their tanks also tried placing bioballs in the PVC pipe. This way the water makes way more air contact (that's what's cooling it). Forming of nitrates should be minimal because it's in free air and you can easily clean the balls out. i guess you could place the bong right in your sump in stead of making a closed loop systems like used with computers. just let the water get out at the bottom.

[coralnut99]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12284846#post12284846 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DinX
it's called bong cooling. It's mainly used by people who use watercooling for their computers. It works like this:

http://tweakers.net/ext/f/IcWUAyAYQjAR1IWTvONkoMmQ/full.png

I don't need to explain where they got the name from :p
Experience with people who use it on their computers are pretty good. The only downside is that it evaporates alot of water en you also loose a bit with because of the spray that escapes. you can solve that by placing a bit of foam in the top, and making the top high enough.

Peopel who use it for their tanks also tried placing bioballs in the PVC pipe. This way the water makes way more air contact (that's what's cooling it). Forming of nitrates should be minimal because it's in free air and you can easily clean the balls out. i guess you could place the bong right in your sump in stead of making a closed loop systems like used with computers. just let the water get out at the bottom.

Yup, that's exactly the idea. The one I remember seeing here, used 4 inch PVC I think. I was thinking of adding a diffuser plate instead of the bioballs though. Certainly agree on how much this will increase evaporation, but top-off water's still a lot cheaper than running a chiller.

[Whalehead9]

anybody actually built a bong cooler? I want to here how well it works.

[DinX]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12286215#post12286215 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whalehead9
anybody actually built a bong cooler? I want to here how well it works.

I was planning on building one this weekend, together with a DIY nitrate reductor.

[Whalehead9]

let me know how well it works out. take pictures please.

[ConcreteReefer]

Bong Cooler- What about using a "misting" sprinkler head for the atomizer?

[DinX]

I don't know what kind of flow rate it can handle. When you use a misting sprinkler you don't get alot of waterflow. Will that be enough to cool 125 gallons of water ?

[ItsNeverEnough]

Hey tonyespinoza! I don't have any input on the Chiller, although I will say that I am going to use the basement idea on my next build which brings me to my question: I noticed that you are doing a 200gal rimless/braceless tank. Are you building this out of glass?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, my sump and refugia are in my basement, and I still need the water cooling system described above, so it is not always adequate. :)

[tonyespinoza]

yes - it's actually 250g rimless/braceless with 3/4" starphire.

i've also considered going eurobraced to get the cost down... still trying to decide on the manufacturer...

here's my build thread.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12305975#post12305975

[ItsNeverEnough]

I will check out the thread! I love the rimeless open-top look and am going to build 100 gal+ (Would love to go bigger but space just won't allow it!) soon but have never built with glass before and with the acrylic there is a major concern with bowing. I have considered building it with acylic with a eurobrace but think it might ruin the overall look. I love that starphire glass but it is expensive and I worry about screwing it up. Keep me posted on your build if you would and I will follow your thread as well.

[das75]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12251063#post12251063 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GuySmilie
Work fine - last long time.
(cheap too)

http://www.reefugium.com/pix/chiller.jpg

Wife suggested central air for the house, immediately though of tank and said yes, now we're both happy.

[Lutefisk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12338677#post12338677 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by das75
Wife suggested central air for the house, immediately though of tank and said yes, now we're both happy.

I installed a digital thermostat that also handles humidity. If it gets too humid in the house - which is what you get when you have over 250 gallons of saltwater - it kicks in the AC which condenses water out of the air.


Paul

[glassocean]

Does anyone know how much a fan (of any size) could actually cool down the water?(positioned right on top with maximum wind) If the room temp is say 86 degrees, is there a maximum number that the water can be cooled? Would a large fan be able to bring the temp down to 80?

[kelvin88]

Interesting.. let me know how it work out

[FunkieReefJunkie]

Glassocean I've ran up to three muffin fans over the sump and kept the tank below 80 degrees. This summer I'm experimenting with freezing and floating those big gatorade bottles with the handles in the sump to see if I can save some electricity. So far I haven't had to turn on the air conditioner for the sun room/fish room.

[morphlingman]

glasocean : Fans definately work, I use 1 6" fan & 1 10" fan, they keep the temp around 78-79 (80 when the room gets very hot), without the fans the temp goes to 85-88. I position the fans blowing air rear to front and across the length of the tank, a few inches above the water line. The draw back is a lot of evaporation.

I like the coil idea through the sump, to the RO unit.
I guess the only way to control the cooling would be to use a few heaters, if the coils cool to much. Or is their a way to connect a controler to it?

[UrbanSage]

My 100g sump is sitting on the concrete floor in my basement.
The display is 270g and lighted by 3x400MH.
I sold the chiller and added heaters.

Sitting on the concrete I believe drives a lot of heat away from the water.

[HornetMech242]

How do you incorporate that window AC unit to the tank for cooling? I havea window behind my tank so could i just use it to cool the stand?

[Brent Thomann]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12373691#post12373691 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HornetMech242
How do you incorporate that window AC unit to the tank for cooling? I havea window behind my tank so could i just use it to cool the stand? you would use it to cool the fish room.

[morphlingman]

Randy H & atvdave
Using the Polypropylene tubing coiled in your sump, would the water in the tubing not heat up quickly and not be very effective.

[Untamed12]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12375346#post12375346 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by morphlingman
Randy H & atvdave
Using the Polypropylene tubing coiled in your sump, would the water in the tubing not heat up quickly and not be very effective.

If the water in the tubing gets warm that means that it has worked to remove heat from the aquarium water. That cooling water in the tube runs down the drain....it isn't a closed loop like you are possibly thinking.

So the effectiveness of this method depends on how cold your incoming water is...how fast it moves through the coil (how much tubing you use)...and how efficiently the coil allows for heat transfer.

Seems to me a better use of waste water than just dumping it down the drain!

[morphlingman]

I plan on filling a 55 gallon bucket with a tap in it, with the waste water. Using it for irrigation. With 1/4" tubing could I run that tubing 12' up to my deck above and still have the same pressure, or would it back up the RO system

[plyr58]

What about the ground-cooled water idea by sinking a loop of piping into the ground, which in most places has a set temperature and pumping water through it. There have been several threads about this in the past.

[K' Family Reef]

those of you who are using the coiled polyethylene tubing in your sumps.......


is there a best way to place the tubing in the sump?

ie
just today purchased 400ft of tubing and running tap water thru it (thru the sump)... i wrapped this up into coils and put plastic zip ties around each coil... (to keep it from getting all tangled up and knoted)... think i have about 9-10 coils wrapped up...

but wondering if wrapping it up into a semitight coil
(might) be reducing the cooling capacity or potential of the tubing... being that its basically semitightly wound around itself/touching itself in the coil

vs
being unwound sitting w/n the sump where it might have more of a cooling chance

any thoughts on this?

thanks.


regards

[morphlingman]

I am just setting up my coils tonight. I am going to start with 100' of tubing, coiled tight using plastic zip ties. I have a feeling that after a certain number of coiled feet the temperature inside the tubing will have warmed up to the same temperature as the sump water, making the rest of the tubing ineffective. I am going to test it now. Will let you know how it goes.

[K' Family Reef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12444636#post12444636 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by morphlingman
I am just setting up my coils tonight. I am going to start with 100' of tubing, coiled tight using plastic zip ties. I have a feeling that after a certain number of coiled feet the temperature inside the tubing will have warmed up to the same temperature as the sump water, making the rest of the tubing ineffective. I am going to test it now. Will let you know how it goes.


with 400 ft going thru sump surprisingly the water coming out was still cold... didnt measure the temperature - it simply felt cold to the touch.

was hard for me to measure any sort of results bec we were not running our a/c and the temp inside the house was 89* which makes trying to cool using this method perhaps even more of an uphill battle...

good luck

regards

[sjames]

I think it takes a lot of tubing because the plastic tubing has very poor thermal conductivity properties. Polyethylene being about .5 k to aluminum being about 250 k.

You could accomplish the same thermal transfer with a far shorter length of titanium tubing if it were readily available and affordable.

You would want the coiling loose, so that water can be in contact with maximum amount of surface area.

If the water comming out the other end of the pipe is much colder than the tank water you should probably decrease the flow.

[bjmycroft]

I guess the idea of constantly running cold water through a pipe in the sump will work. My problem with it as an idea is that it is probably not that great for the environment and is a waste of water, PLUS the cost. If you are not on a water meter then I guess its free .... but for me im guessing it would quickly become expensive as I am on a water meter.

Im going to investigate the "Bong" idea as that sounds like a goer.

On the evaporative cooling front, I was also thinking about building a radiator-grill style affair from pvc tubing and running it outside with a fan behind it. I recon if its in shadow then it may work - im just not sure if pvc has the right thermal properties to lose heat fast enough?

-Bob

[morphlingman]

Well I've had the coil system running now for about 20 hrs and it seems to work very well, (almost too good). I turned off the fan, turned on the RO unit, and left the lights on for a few extra hrs. For the first few hrs the temp stayed around 82.5. By the morning the temp had dropped to 76.5, a little low. By the evening the temp was 80.0. Normally the temp in the evening with the fan running all day would be 84-85. After 150' of coil (no pressure lost) (100' which is submerged in the sump) the water is still cool, so i will add another 50' and see if it keeps it around 78 during the day.
Also I coiled my coil of tubing very tight together, so I'm not sure if it makes any difference, how tight the coil is.

bjmycroft: I am actually being more environmentally friendly, because I have unpluged my fan saving electricity. I was already running the RO unit almost all the time, so the wasted water is being used. And after the waste water cools my sump, it goes outside to 2 55 gallon drums with a tap, for my wife and her garden.

[Gomer]

I take no credit for it, but it is a nifty idea.
http://www.killies.com/images/DIYChiller02.JPG

[K' Family Reef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12453756#post12453756 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gomer
I take no credit for it, but it is a nifty idea.
http://www.killies.com/images/DIYChiller02.JPG


hey Gomer nothing showed up in the pic
:D

[tbittner]

Great idea! If the feed line for the RO/DI is run through the sump to help cool the system water, it also warms up the feed water for the RO/DI and makes it more effective and increases it's production rate.

[ReefEnabler]

the idea of running your cold water through the sump before the RO unit is interesting. it raises a couple challenges though:

How do you continue to cool the water when the RO unit is not being used? I have my RO solenoid on a timer so its not constantly turning on and off.... I guess it could instead be controlled via a temperature controller? But what if you either didnt produce enough water that way, or produced too much?

[tbittner]

Good point. My RO/DI isn't running continuously either. Could hook it up as a circulation loop with a T off to the RO/DI. As the water warms, it would rise back into the house loop and be replaced with cold water.

I've seen houses plumbed that way so when you turn on the faucet, the hot water is there immediately.

[morphlingman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12457766#post12457766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RyanBrucks
the idea of running your cold water through the sump before the RO unit is interesting. it raises a couple challenges though:

How do you continue to cool the water when the RO unit is not being used? I have my RO solenoid on a timer so its not constantly turning on and off.... I guess it could instead be controlled via a temperature controller? But what if you either didnt produce enough water that way, or produced too much?
I run my waste water through the sump, not my feed water.

I use alot of water, but I'll admit it will be a challenge to use it all.
Also if you have too much water produced, try turning it off when the lights are not on. The tank might stay constant through the night, or heat up might be minimal.

[ReefEnabler]

thats a great idea. relatively easy to implement. I wonder if youd get better results using a shorter titanium exchanger rather than so many feet of plastic tubing.

i might do something like this but have it set to operate a few degrees below the chiller, and leave the chiller for backup if necessary.

[morphlingman]

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12459827#post12459827 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RyanBrucks
[B]thats a great idea. relatively easy to implement. I wonder if youd get better results using a shorter titanium exchanger rather than so many feet of plastic tubing.

I'm, sure it would be better. What is the cost of titanum coil? My costs where $30 for the tubing.

[dots]

Thats what kills most of the exotic material ideas when trying to come up with another solution for cooling that using a chiller.

Yes, titanium has a better thermal conductivity value than vinyl or poly-pipe, however it is super expensive, fittings are next to impossible unless you go aircraft quality, welding is a problem, bending due to brittleness is another.

Rembember, its a cost vs benifit thing, if it costs twice as much and is half a efficent than the cheapest chiller, its not worth it. That is your maximum dollar amount that you are limited to.


In addition, treat heat like nutrient reduction. Establish ways to prevent it from even entering the system, as well as getting rid of what is there.

Due to water flow rate, volume of water to cool, how much energy you need to pull out, and the diferential between the tank and ambient will effect the rate of cooling.

Here is one I would like to throw out there:

I recently thought it would be "cool" to try an application much like a "cool can" used in drag racing to cool the fuel lines.

We already know bags of ice, frozen Gatorade bottles, etc are effective, however they melt quickly. This is largely due to the volume of ice compared to that of the water.

I would like someone coil a bunch of 1/2" vinyl hose into a large family igloo cooler and fill it with crushed ice. Using a pump with a ball valve on it, (not too big to negate what ever we accomplish or tap into an existing), use some bulkheads and a short distance to/from to minimize transfer into the air, the tank water is circulated through the cooler.

By controlling the dwell time with the ball valve to pull out the most heat possible, it will also increase the volume of the tank and slightly increase the heat capacity of the tank itself.

The ice pulls the heat from the display water, which over time raises the temperature within the coolor and reducing its effectiveness which could be further compensated for by slowing the flow even more.

Because of the insulation properties of the cooler, the energy from the ice is used for cooling the display only. (In a perfect world)

From camping in the past, we know ice takes several days to melt within one of these coolers, this could be true for this system, but at least could be used on the hottest of days possibly last 2-3.

How long, depends on those other factors listed above. I would think this would be a good alternative for a nano or possibly up to 75g, but it depends on the situation at hand.

Using evaprotive cooling, and resetting the lighting to come on in the cooler evenings, could be an effective system.

[morphlingman]

After 4 full days with 150' of coiled tubing. Temperatures are down between 79-82. RO unit shows no effects and I am shuting off The RO unit at night. I am going to add another 50'

[Gomer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12454656#post12454656 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WarrenAmy&Maddy
hey Gomer nothing showed up in the pic
:D

Lets try it again :)

http://www.killies.com/images/DIYChiller02.JPG
http://www.killies.com/images/DIYChiller02.JPG

[FunkieReefJunkie]

Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /images/DIYChiller02.JPG on this server.
:(

[eznet2u]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12466714#post12466714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots

Here is one I would like to throw out there:

I recently thought it would be "cool" to try an application much like a "cool can" used in drag racing to cool the fuel lines.

We already know bags of ice, frozen Gatorade bottles, etc are effective, however they melt quickly. This is largely due to the volume of ice compared to that of the water.

I would like someone coil a bunch of 1/2" vinyl hose into a large family igloo cooler and fill it with crushed ice. Using a pump with a ball valve on it, (not too big to negate what ever we accomplish or tap into an existing), use some bulkheads and a short distance to/from to minimize transfer into the air, the tank water is circulated through the cooler.

By controlling the dwell time with the ball valve to pull out the most heat possible, it will also increase the volume of the tank and slightly increase the heat capacity of the tank itself.

The ice pulls the heat from the display water, which over time raises the temperature within the coolor and reducing its effectiveness which could be further compensated for by slowing the flow even more.

Because of the insulation properties of the cooler, the energy from the ice is used for cooling the display only. (In a perfect world)



I do this every year in my little tank. Works great, sometimes a little too well. (Heaters running)

I wrote about it and got flamed...go figure.

It works.

$25.00 Chiller (http://www.cvreefers.org/showthread.php?t=5309)

[silvers]

My tank is by a window I put a small window unit in that blows directly into my canopy. Works Great and when our ac unit went out last summer it was a life saver for me and the tank

[Gomer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12479910#post12479910 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FunkieReefJunkie
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /images/DIYChiller02.JPG on this server.
:(

Doh. I just saved and uploaded to photobucket.

This is Venson's (EvolutionZ) at Killie.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/BeyondGomer/DSCF3318.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b248/BeyondGomer/DSCF3314.jpg

[Paul B]

I freeze gallon bleach bottles of fresh water and put one in the tank in the morning. It takes a couple of hours to melt and drops the temp about 2 degrees. I have a 100 gallon tank.

[hpglow]

Use a thermo-electric device aka a Peltier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

Buy some rubber hose coil it up in your sump and hook it to a small pump. From there run the loop into a water block securly attached to the cold side of the peltier. Fill the sump side with RO water in case it somehow leaks into your tank. On the hot side of the device you will have another water block attached to a small pump and then make another loop fill this side of the loop with a good effective chemical coolant as it is the side removing the heat from your tank. Inline on this side will also be a small radiator with an attached fan. Idealy you will want to plum this radiator into a crawl space or something to get the heat as far away from the tank.

The computer enthusiast community uses these products often.
http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l2/g30/c105/list/p1/Liquid_Cooling-Peltier_Coolers_TEC_Coldplates.html

The bong cooler aka the evaporative cooler noted a couple pages back is an effective cooler as well. It does have its flaws though. It is very loud, sounds like rain constantly. Its other flaw is that it can never cool the water below room temp. So if its summer and your house is 85F that is the lowest the tank will get when using this type of cooling.

[rhoptowit]

^i remember teclima made a nano chiller that exploited that concept of electrical cooling.

its not economical for larger systems though is wat i know of it, so thats why teclima only made a nano chiller w/ that technology.

[rhoptowit]

oh i forgot to ask, has anyone ever tried making a DIY version of the deltec eco-chiller?

from what i understand its just something that lets water pass over a medium like a sponge which gives the water a greater surfacfe area. then fans blow on it to rapidly evaporating the water, cooling it.

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12466714#post12466714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots

I would like someone coil a bunch of 1/2" vinyl hose into a large family igloo cooler and fill it with crushed ice. Using a pump with a ball valve on it, (not too big to negate what ever we accomplish or tap into an existing), use some bulkheads and a short distance to/from to minimize transfer into the air, the tank water is circulated through the cooler.
By controlling the dwell time with the ball valve to pull out the most heat possible, it will also increase the volume of the tank and slightly increase the heat capacity of the tank itself.
The ice pulls the heat from the display water, which over time raises the temperature within the coolor and reducing its effectiveness which could be further compensated for by slowing the flow even more.
Because of the insulation properties of the cooler, the energy from the ice is used for cooling the display only. (In a perfect world)
From camping in the past, we know ice takes several days to melt within one of these coolers, this could be true for this system, but at least could be used on the hottest of days possibly last 2-3.
How long, depends on those other factors listed above. I would think this would be a good alternative for a nano or possibly up to 75g, but it depends on the situation at hand.
I just set one of these up for parties and thought it could be used as a chiller.
http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/jockey-boxes/120-single.shtml
Please give us your thoughts on how this could be utilized.

[dots]

That is pretty much exactly what I had in mind. Because I don't even want to think about doing the Thermo on this, if the tubing is too long for the application, no big deal.

However, if we needed more for longer contact, can that been done easily and cost efficiently? This is why I had suggested the vinyl tubing originally.

If so, I would love to hear someone try this out.

Another idea simmilar to the "bong"

Using a larger diameter PVC tube horizontal, with a 90 on one end use some "misting" drip hose inside of it and blow a fan through it.

The atomized water evaporates easier increasing evaporative cooling, the water collects, then drains back passing through the 90.

[vvolfe1]

Is there any reason to not use stainless steel tubing versus titanium to get better heat transfer?

[Gomer]

if you are going to use stainless, you need one that is good for marine environments. normal 30X stainless still will rust. Get 316 SS tubing and you should be fine. Any rusting will be minimal and can be passivated with long periods between.

[Gomer]

or you could use thermally conductive polymer tubing. Not sure if it is mroe or less expensive them thin wall titanium tubing.

[dots]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12466714#post12466714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Thats what kills most of the exotic material ideas when trying to come up with another solution for cooling that using a chiller.

Yes, titanium has a better thermal conductivity value than vinyl or poly-pipe, however it is super expensive, fittings are next to impossible unless you go aircraft quality, welding is a problem, bending due to brittleness is another.

Rembember, its a cost vs benifit thing, if it costs twice as much and is half a efficent than the cheapest chiller, its not worth it. That is your maximum dollar amount that you are limited to.

[Lutefisk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12517681#post12517681 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hpglow The bong cooler aka the evaporative cooler noted a couple pages back is an effective cooler as well. It does have its flaws though. It is very loud, sounds like rain constantly. Its other flaw is that it can never cool the water below room temp. So if its summer and your house is 85F that is the lowest the tank will get when using this type of cooling.

Evaporative cooling can go significanly below room temperature. However, it works best in low humidity environments.

Evaporative cooling works not just by exposing the water to the room temperature but by the rather significant energy required for the transformation from liquid to gas as the water evaporates.

That is why something as simple as a fan blowing across the water surface has such a large effect.

Paul

[SulfurAcid]

Hey guys,

Working on an internship project at Rosenstiel, and i have a cool thing to share with you.

i am currently working on an aquarium product that is basically just as efficient or more efficient than a chiller, with 1/3rd the cost. We are using thermo-electric plates that run across a gas matrix, which is suspended next to an acrylic plate. This gas responds to heat changes quickly, absorbing heat from the water flowing from outside the acrylic. Then, the thermo-electric plates absorb the heat from the one side, and transfer it out of the cooling area. We are working on the part of the device that transports this heated air away from the device and the aquarium. Thinking of either hooking up some fans, or plugging it into an exhaust going outside.

[K' Family Reef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12624489#post12624489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SulfurAcid
Hey guys,

Working on an internship project at Rosenstiel, and i have a cool thing to share with you.

i am currently working on an aquarium product that is basically just as efficient or more efficient than a chiller, with 1/3rd the cost. We are using thermo-electric plates that run across a gas matrix, which is suspended next to an acrylic plate. This gas responds to heat changes quickly, absorbing heat from the water flowing from outside the acrylic. Then, the thermo-electric plates absorb the heat from the one side, and transfer it out of the cooling area. We are working on the part of the device that transports this heated air away from the device and the aquarium. Thinking of either hooking up some fans, or plugging it into an exhaust going outside.


:thumbsup:

look forward to updates!

regards

[yrema]

that sounds cool sulfuracid. :D will tag along for the updates too!

[Phillybean]

RODI Ice Cubes instead of an auto top off or have a bar fridge with your top off water in it. Simply top off with nearly freezing water.

[tonyespinoza]

Here's a wacky idea...

Anyone ever seen how they do radiant heat? Plastic tubes sealed in a thin, light-weight concrete slab.

What if I ran plastic tubing through a large, thick, regular concrete slab floor as a cooling system in my basement.

Think it would help? How big would it need to be to make a difference? :-)

[OCEAN SIZE]

Heat rises, cold sinks Tony (not saying this to sound patronizing, just to clarify the concept - your question is perfectly valid). That's why radiant flooring works. You'd need a chilled ceiling, if that makes sense. That's why ceiling fans are so effective.

I like Randy's coiled water hose tubing method personally. I'm going to set up my RO/DI feed water to coil through the sump first - which has a double nice effect of cooling / temp insulating the tank water, as well as warming up the RO/DI water (making it more efficient).

Then I'm running my exhaut RO/DI water out to my garden, and I'm planning to irrigate my whole property with it. In the summer when its hotter and my sump (in my shed) evaporates more, then more water will be used, thereby cooling my sump more as well as watering my property more.

Its a win-win, if this works out right. :)

I'd recommend a big fan and a window AC unit, as well as reverse light cycles (halides at night). Since the Bay Area is hottest around 4pm, I'm going to try to run my lights as late/early as possible.

[Dale Carlisle]

Not sure how the heat rises cold sinks reference relates OS? (unless you are thinking of a passive system (no pump).

Tony, I think you are describing a modified geothermic system, using a pump to move fluid through the slab (and being cooled by it) instead of burying the line under ground. I have no idea how large the area would have to be but I see a couple of problems with the idea.

1. It would cost a lot to build.
2. You would want the slab to be as cold as possible. This means maintaining a cold basement (If you heat the basement you are heating the slab and working against its cooling potential). To heat the basement you would need to have an effective thermal break between it and a subfloor which leads back to #1.
3. You would be permanently installing something that the next homeowner might not want (resale value).

I don't think you could even install it as a system to be converted to radiant heating in the future as most radiant floor systems have a thermal break between the tubing and the ground (directing heat up into the floor not down into the ground). That thermal break would reduce the cooling capacity of the slab.

As an experiment in a setting where some of the above concerns didn't matter it would be interesting to see what the cooling effects would be. Somebodies probably done it somewhere.

The idea of using a concrete slab to cool the tank has been discussed before though. For my coldwater system I have a fishroom in an unheated garage with a concrete slab floor. I experimented, trying to find passive methods of reducing heat inputs. By placing the sump directly on the slab I could reduce the overall system temps by a couple of degrees. The slab under the sump would heat up but the surrounding concrete stripped away the heat and the cool room air kept it cool as well.

Some other things I tried to (mostly) passively reduce heat inputs:
1. Venting the fishroom to remove room heat that accumulates from lights, pumps and the chiller.
2. Venting the chiller directly out of the room.
3. Reducing the lighting to reduce byproduct heat (Do I really need a full tank spread of MH at 12 Hr's/day?).
4. Running all pumps inline (no submersibles).
5. Raise the sump closer to the display so a smaller return pump can be used.

[OCEAN SIZE]

Hey Dale - radiant flooring works for warmth, not cooling. I've never heard of chilled water as radiant flooring, only heated. Simply putting a sump on a cold basement slab (like you've done) is as good as it gets from what I understand.

Hope that makes sense. Since heat rises, people run warm tubing through floors, rather than through ceilings.

Your point # 3 is especially key - its been a while since Ive been a heavy RC user, but last I read (years ago), MH lighting is good to have in powerful doses, obviously, but may not need to run for long periods.

I think it was proposed a long time ago at a conference that shorter durations of intense light are sufficient and the 12-18 hour days of photoperiod are better for growing the other kind of, uh, reef, not the corals.

Not sure what best practice is on mh lighting these days, just trying to help out. I have 1250 watts total available in just the mh ballasts I currently own. I plan to use a variety of kelvin ranges and a limited cycle. Not sure how that will impact coral growth, but it should help my power bill and keep my tank from boiling.

[tonyespinoza]

thanks for sharing the thoughts dale! all good points.

i'm going to be building a new house here (tearing down my current one) in a few years. at that time it will not cost a lot to add plastic tubing to the foundation (here in Palo Alto we have to build pretty substantial reinforced foundations since the water table is high and it's a quake zone). i dont' think it would affect resale value since it would be invisible to the new owner. (plus, since we're building this house we will be staying here at least until the kids finish school which will be another 24 years...) the concrete structure would be very very large (20'x16'?). i'm also thinking i could run tubing inside the back patio and use it to heat the tank at night.

oceansize - we built some high end property in SF in the past and used radiant heating. i am familiar with the "heat rises" concept. but if you have the entire foundation of a 3500 sq ft house built in one continuous slab of concrete and you run some plastic tubing through one portion of the house (one floor area and/or wall) it is going to cool the water. i'd bet the concrete will remain around 50 degrees year around. (our city property has a poured-in-place structure at the base that's 75'x36'x36' and man it stays cold even though it's exposed to sunlight on the outside).

[OCEAN SIZE]

Right on. Again - hope that comment didn't come across wrong. I'm following your logic. My only thought was what you pointed out... 50 degrees is a nice, stable, insulating temp to use as a baseline.

My only thought was you didn't need to make the extra effort (using tubing), but now I see what you were saying.

Wow, you get to build a new house around your next tank. Congrats !

[tonyespinoza]

heh... the house will be built around my family's requirements... the tank sucks a lot of energy, so it would be more efficient and less wasteful to figure out how to use the construction of the house to meet the needs of all us (including the corals)! :-)

[Dale Carlisle]

Tony,
If you are building new and thinking of reducing energy costs check out this thread.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1205844
The one thing I would have done different in my garage build would to have situated the fishroom in such a way as to be able to use solatubes. They probably would account for quite a savings by either reducing or replacing artificial lighting.
Good luck when you build.

[tonyespinoza]

thanks dale - i will definitely look into it!

another thought: there's a possibility that when i get to this project (which could be anywhere between 3 - 6 years) LED lighting may be finally adequate for SPS... :-)

[OCEAN SIZE]

I think they are already, arent they? There is a build thread in the Large Tanks forum with an LED setup...

[ReefEnabler]

look for Ed Reef's tank :D

[tonyespinoza]

If you look at Ed's tank, you will see a bunch of great colonies he grew under metal halides. He's just moved them over to a bigger tank with LED's but it remains to be seen if the corals will continue to grow and thrive. (I'm rooting for it, but if he succeeds, he will be the very first.)

[SFeST]

I make a stack of big ro/di icecubes and it works fine for those extra hot days. I have a freezer in my garage and I fill a bunch of tupperwear containers with water from my auto top off, and I just drop them in my sump if needed. Other than that, I just run cpu fans in my hood and a small clip-on fan over my sump and my temp almost never gets above 80. I just made sure that the fans are placed intelligently so that they either constantly suck in fresh air or blow out hot, otherwise they would just recirculate hot air and won't do much.

I don't run MH but I still live in California, in a house without AC so it's remarkable what those little fans do for cooling.

[das75]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12727097#post12727097 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tonyespinoza
Here's a wacky idea...

Anyone ever seen how they do radiant heat? Plastic tubes sealed in a thin, light-weight concrete slab.

What if I ran plastic tubing through a large, thick, regular concrete slab floor as a cooling system in my basement.

Think it would help? How big would it need to be to make a difference? :-)

Lots of different geo-thermal threads (see here) (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1289277). There was another that I can't find which was good also that was basically just a vertical shaft through the basement floor.

[Zegg]

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