adding a orchid dottyback

[Bax]

Hey all!

I've been wanting to post this for days, but I've just been very busy. So, I "successfully" paired a pair of orchid dottybacks pseudochromis fridmani back in my 75g over two years ago. In the move to my 120g I lost the female, soon after there was an ick outbreak and I lost my male.

I added another that has developed into a mature egg developing female. So, she needed a male. I bought one, it was much smaller then I thought, but I followed similar introduction procedures as I did a couple of years ago.

Here's what has happened so far ...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008018.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008020.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008019.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008curiousPF01.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008littledude.jpg

[Bax]

The established female is pretty large. The new male is very small, immediately my concern was, HE's TOO SMALL!

But this female is very accepting. Much more so then my first female. This one, instead of trying to kill the new male, she has accepted him, totally. She is in fact a "Mrs. Robinson" of ODs.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008allRcurious.jpg

She is immediately interested in the new addition.

[Bax]

So, I released him.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008ODpair01.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008ODpair02.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008ODpair03.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008ODpair04.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120March2008ODpair05.jpg


The female was immediately receptive. Amazingly so. My last female would have BBQ'd this little guy as an interloper. He is obviously too young for mating. Yet her patience is unwavering.

[Bax]

Here a video of the first few minutes of thier cohabitation.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/th_120March2008080.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/?action=view&current=120March2008080.flv)

[Bax]

And another ...

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/th_120March2008081.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/?action=view&current=120March2008081.flv)

[A sea K]

Congrats, That is quite special, and thanks for sharing.

[Bax]

Thanks A Sea K. Their interaction is amazing to watch.

He is still not accepting her advances and entering the burrow with her. But, he has moved into a cubby under a blue tort directly across the reef from hers. I am sure once the little guy has matured a bit more things will heat up between them.

For his small size, this little fish has some real gonads! He spars with all tankmates who check out the new guy as though he were fully grown, so I am sure he's got the right stuff.

[snorvich]

Now this is a GREAT posting. Do you think they will mate? Are you going to try to do anything with the "output" if they do?

[A sea K]

Bax,
What are the physical differences between the sexes? I've had my P. fridmani for a good while and a possible mate sounds interesting.

[Bax]

snorvich

Thanks!

I imagine that this pair will at some point mate. I say this only because in my last pairing attempt, my female was so aggressive that I do not believe they ever mated in my 75 g. I then moved them into my current 120. The female disappeared, I assume in an unfortunate aquascaping mishap? She was the first fish I bought after a pair of o. clowns in my initial SW system. It pained me to loose her.

This female is very accepting and obviously interested in mating. Because of her interest, I am fairly certain it will happen in due time. If they do mate. I may consider a larval rearing tank, but I do not have any such set up as yet. I do have Martin Moe's book "Breading the Orchid Dottyback" though, so we'll see.

A sea K

Let me preface my response by saying, I have no scientific reference to support this but ... It is very subtle. In general the female will be larger, more robust with a rounder belly for carrying eggs. The tail of the smaller male will have a sharper line to the bottom edge, almost pointy.

In both attempts, I have introduce a young individual and let it mature. In both cases this lone individual has developed into a female and produced eggs which she passes and it makes a great meal for the tank. I think, JMO, like many marine fish the sex is variable, ODs will develop into mature females if they have a territory. A immature individual introduced later will remain or become a male. Maybe they are born non-sexed and are suppressed to be a male??? At least , that's my theory.

When I set up my 220 I am considering a larger number maybe 5-7. I think watching the social interaction and resulting pairing(s) would be really interesting and add a lot of subtle activity to the tank. ODs IME live a life apart from the rest of their tankmates and dance to their own tune, which fascinates me. I can't imagine a reef with out an OD. :)

[A sea K]

Well I'm still pretty green at this whole thing and although it would be great to have a pair in the tank It's probably best just to stay with the one I have. I'd hate to add a second and risk losing one or worse yet both due to my inexperience.
Possibly in the future as my experience grows I would certainly like to try this.

Thaks again and good luck.

[Bax]

You are welcome. With your 210, depending upon your other fish, it would be an easy addition. Just use the clear jug for two to three weeks or more if needed until the established one seems more comfortable with the addition. I think my first pair would have mated in time if I did not have to move the tank. They are just doing what comes naturally 8)

Having a dottyback, any dottyback, is a commitment. I don't keep wrasses as they would cross niches even in my 120. In a 210 I would think you could keep a pair of ODs and still keep a wrasse or two if they interest you ( they certainly interest me :) )

[A sea K]

Bax,
That's part of the reason I don't feel I should try it. I have 4 wrasses (3 fairies) and a host of other small fish that seem to prefer the same areas of the tank as the Dottyback.
Someday though, I hope to be in this hobby for quite a while.

[Bax]

One more thing, since most ODs are now tank raised, they come in to the LFS pretty small. I think the best way to assure a male and female is to get one. Grow it out be sure it developes to a mature female, then add a young one which, if I am correct will be or become a male, as that's the beauty of nature. Perhaps one of the resident experts can comment on wether I am FOS on that point or not. This also assures they are not from the same brood, which if you want to rear the young might be important.

It's not that hard, if I can do it, any one can.

[A sea K]

I think mine is maturing or possibly mature at this point. I have had him/her since Dec, 06 and have noticed some physical changes in the fishes appearance recently. He seems to have thickened across the top of the head/ back region to almost a hump, not the slight taper as before. Could just be FFS (fat fish syndrome), I feed my fish fairly well.

[Bax]

Fat fish are good! :)

[snorvich]

Well I hope you will consider going the next step. The Martin Moe book is clearly the right place to start. I hope you will keep all of us informed. I have lost of fairy and flasher wrasses so dottybacks are a bit off limits for me.

[Bax]

Steve
I am thinking about the larval tank, it really wouldn't be too hard to incorporate into my rebuild of my fish room a pair of 20g tanks would be no sweat...we'll see.

And wrasses and dottybacks hmmm... I agree, its a tough mix and you need to be careful.

[sly fox]

very nice... thanks for sharing

[Bax]

sly fox

No problem! I'll do my best to up date this ever so often. It'll hopefully be interesting, and maybe even helpful to some, to record the development of their interaction.

[Bax]

I posted this in my build log but I wanted to updaye this thread as well:

So Friday I walk into my office and there are the orchid dottybacks doing the dance I have come so used to seeing. It never has resulted in ant courtship, until now!

Here is the established one who has turned into a obvious male over the last two months. He's poking out of the cubby, there are several enterances to it.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120June2008037.jpg

I often see them swimming close, but it's so hard to catch them both in frame.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/120June2008039.jpg

And I missed the courtship dance as I didn't think it was going anywhere, but shure enough, here is the little round bellied female ducking into the cubby!
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/th_120June2008035.jpg (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e354/bax01/?action=view&current=120June2008035.flv)

[dvmsn]

Very cool. I have been thinking about doing this for a while, but this thread cinched it.

[petoonia]

I've always wanted to add an OD to my 75G. How are the OD's as far as aggressive behaviour?

[A sea K]

Congratulations Bax,
Its great to see them settled in together. Unfortunately I will pass on attempting to pair mine as I seem to be somewhat overstocked at the present and the addition of that "one more fish" would probably have some negative impact.

petoonia, As far as Dottyback's, the OD is one ,if not the most passive of them all. Given the fish list in your sig I don't see any potential problems from a social standpoint.

[Bax]

Thanks dvmsn, petiinia & A sea K

dvmsn
Go for it! Just be patient with the introduction.

petoonia
A sea K is on the money, there is no more peaeful dottyback then the orchid. That said, watch future additions, as once stablished it will be reluctant to accept similar body types such as wrasses,, candy hogs, & other dottybacks.

A sea K
Bioload is a *****!

[A sea K]

I hear ya!

[petoonia]

Thanks for the info!!! If I were to add an OD it would be the last fish. I'll have to give it some thought. They are a beautiful fish!!!

[Bax]

If you have very porous rock work with lots of bolt holes and cubby holes, they are really great to watch. Lot's of personality, it's like they have their own agenda and the rest of the tank doesn't matter. You do have a very compatible fish list for adding an OD.

[Snapper66]

:) Words cant Describe your Fishes Beauty Thank you for Sharing.

[Bax]

Thanks Snapper66, I can't imagine my tank without my ODs.