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View Full Version : Why do people make big fuss over tanks under 3 gallons, shipped fish is 10x worst.


SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 09:59 AM
When we order fish from a pet shop that is on the other side of the US and that pet shop ships it to your house what do you think happens with that fish. Does someone sit with it on there lap the whole trip, I DON"T THINK SO, that little guy goes for the ride of its life.

#1 it gets pickup from your regular Fed-X or UPS guy that knows the pet shop owner and is a cool guy

#2 the delivery guy drops it off to the Fed-X location and the journey starts. it gets put on a conveyer belt that shakes the little fish in that little bag and that bag has no more then 30oz of water. all the way to when they put it in the truck and they don't place it down they THROW it in the truck and that truck takes it to the airport.

#3 that little bag in a dark box gets taken out of the truck and dropped on a belt and loaded on a plane and God only know how hot it must be on that plane. The flight that this little fish took is not any good for this little guy, how often do fish fly in the wild sea "Never'.

#4 Now that box takes a trip to the state of destination then step 3, 2, 1 is repeated. If that is not one of the big cities that they care about it gets sent to another states and trucked to the station of your town.

#5 now the box goes on a journey once again to your door and God, you and the pet shop is the only ones that know if the little fish in a 8"x12" bag is still alive. As far as Stress the fish gets stressed a few times before it gets to you house.

From the sea to the warehouse that holds the fish, to the dealer in the US that gets it to a pet shop for retail and final stop your home. WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW and at the same time it is shipped in a little bag that has no space for him to move in.

Boy people make big fuss over a fish in tanks that are smaller then three gallon with a filter, skimmer, power compact and lots of love. And I know more then half of you guys and gals mail order so let look in the mirror and think we all do wrong by loving this hobby. There is nothing like having a Sea World that we put together right in the center of our Home. God Bless this Hobby.

And this hobby still owns my heart. There is no better hobby then reef and marine fish.

DS:strooper:

emoore
04/09/2008, 10:03 AM
What is the argument here? Sure a fish has a tough journey being shipped but it is only temporary. Keeping a fish in a tank too small for months or years is much different than shipping a fish.

jthomps123
04/09/2008, 10:03 AM
I think the difference is shipment is temporary. 3-gal hell is a lifetime sentence. This is comparing apples to shoe-laces.

seapug
04/09/2008, 10:08 AM
This a bold statement for someone with 1 month of experience.
There's a difference between temporary conditions needed for a couple days of transport and long term housing.

Also worth mentioning-- many many fish die in transport. The store doesn't put those in the tanks. You only see the ones that survive.

Earl111
04/09/2008, 10:09 AM
when you're on a plane and confined to a little seat without much room to walk around, do you enjoy it? Would you like to spend your whole life on that plane, or go to a one room apartment and never leave?

scrmbld33
04/09/2008, 10:10 AM
all you mentioned was a temp deal. its kind of like driving cross country getting banged around in a tight car, just to see that you have to live in a closet for a few years. i cant think of any fish that should be in a 3 gallon tank or a 1 gallon mentioned in your sig for that manor.

lowendmelody
04/09/2008, 10:12 AM
People will complain and question others in the hobby and their practices, especially the people with more money in my opinion (not all). Those of us who don't have all the big money and big name equipment. I know you did not say this, this is my opinion. I definatly agree with you though.

LET"S NOT FORGET THAT IT IS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE, WELL, ALL OF US THAT THESE CREATURES ARE EVEN TAKEN FROM THEIR HOMES IN THE FIRST PLACE! WE ARE THE REASON THESE FISH GO THROUGH THE STRESS THAT THEY DO. IF THEY ARE FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO FIND AN ACTUAL LOVING HOBBYISTS BEFORE IT GETS KILLED ALONG THE WAY (AND I HAVE SEEN PLENTY OF PEOPLE HERE WHO ARE NOT, EVEN THOUGH THEY MIGHT LIKE TO THINK SO), WHETHER IT BE 3 GALLONS OR 300, AS LONG AS THEY ARE LOVED AND PROVIDED FOR, THAT SHOULD BE THE ONLY TRUE CONCERN.

SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 10:12 AM
I just wanted to know how people felt about this because there are lots of people that just love small tanks and might be thinking of starting tanks less than 3 gallons and they could read what kind of trouble they are up against. So don't take this as making trouble. But an information that need to be clear.

SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 10:14 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290452#post12290452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug
This a bold statement for someone with 1 month of experience.
There's a difference between temporary conditions needed for a couple days of transport and long term housing.

Also worth mentioning-- many many fish die in transport. The store doesn't put those in the tanks. You only see the ones that survive.

Sorry I kept you guys waiting so long. I did have two other big tanks; one about five years back that was a 90 gallon bow front with the black stands that had two doors. I had it running with a

1-Eheim enclosed Wet/dry system
2-Two Hagen Aqua Clear Powerheads model 70
3-UV Sterilizer “don’t remember the size”
4-Sea Clone Skimmer 100
5-Fluidized Bed Filter
6-Two Hagen Powerheads model 30 “on timers to hit the bottom of the tank”
7-Standard strip with two fluorescent Coralife bulbs
8-One single strip with a Actinic bulb “that would come on first thing in the morning for one hour before the two light strip and shut one hours after the strip with the two light shut down.
9-LR
10- Crush Coral for the bottom of my tank
11-Titanium Probe “this was one of the most important parts of my tank and fish. It kept my tank grounded”
12- The Tap Water Filter “I use to use this type of filter because it was cheaper then a RO and worked just as good”

I had this tank for about seven years and my landlord around Bay Parkway Brooklyn NYC, was stealing my electric and I don’t notice that my wet dry was out for about two weeks and when I went to do a water change I notice that where I had my wet dry plugged had shut down because they were messing with God know what, so I gave most of the stuff in the tank that was still living away to a friend and my local pet shop, I cleaned the tank and equipment and moved out. I let all that stuff sit in my sisters basement. That was five years ago, and my sister and I don’t talk anymore so I lost everything.
My first tank was 110 gallon tank with the Oak top and bottom had a regular wet dry with a little giant pump pushing the water, at the time I live in Sunset Park with my little girl’s mom and things didn’t go good so I lost that one too. So I stopped the hobby for about five years and now things are very different then when I was in it. At the time the pet shops didn’t want to hear anybody trying to build a reef tank under thirty gallons and look at it now. So I’m back trying my luck with the Nano World. I can’t stop thinking of these reefs in small tanks. That is why I ask so many questions it’s a bit different now then five year back, Who knew that you can cycle a tank with a raw shrimp, you would of told that to the guy that worked in World of Pets on 86 street and 7th Ave in Brooklyn NYC and they would think you were Crazy. But now things are coming back to me, but every now and then am a little lost. My thing was just fish and now fish and coral. Do you need anymore info?

DS

kar93
04/09/2008, 10:17 AM
You say you have one months experience but then you say youve been reefing since 5 years ago. Not to be picky here but...... well you know.

seapug
04/09/2008, 10:21 AM
"AS LONG AS THEY ARE LOVED AND PROVIDED FOR, THAT SHOULD BE THE ONLY TRUE CONCERN."

Are you kidding?
This is like Mice and Men.
Lenny loves the little bunnies so much he squeezes them to death.

Loving and care for your fish goes beyond your personal emotional connection to them. Caring for them means providing them with conditions that are conducive to their well being. A three gallon tank is not conducive to the well being of any fish, no matter how much you "love" them.

downhillbiker
04/09/2008, 10:27 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290476#post12290476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lowendmelody
People will complain and question others in the hobby and their practices, especially the people with more money in my opinion (not all). Those of us who don't have all the big money and big name equipment. I know you did not say this, this is my opinion.

I agree. Why do people have to bash on others because we dont have the highest price equipment. I use odyssea light, odyssea uv sterilizer, viaaqua protein skimmer, and just ordered off brand ro/di unit. people act like it wont ever work, thats BS, not true at all.

"You get what you pay for" hmmm....if this were true we would all drive cars that cost $250k. This statement is just not true.

SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 10:31 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290523#post12290523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kar93
You say you have one months experience but then you say youve been reefing since 5 years ago. Not to be picky here but...... well you know.

My story tells, about me having fish not reef and reef is not the problem here, keeping a fish in a small tank is.


If you think about it we are all wrong a tank dose not compare to the SEA. What does w have to say to that?

I am pretty new to reef, don't get me wrong I tried it back in the days but had no luck, Now I can go online and get all the information I want from these Forums and that is why I'm back to try my luck.

THANK GOD FOR FORUMS!

DS:strooper:

kar93
04/09/2008, 10:32 AM
I can see why you would think this. but the fish still ned the right enviroment not just feeding and good water. Like tangs need alot of room to fish where as a fish such as the clown goby sits there all day and can be kept in say a 2g pico.

moogoomoogoo
04/09/2008, 10:38 AM
My mothers womb was dark, kinda cramped, and I felt every step she took and in my first few seconds of life on the outside someone slapped me on the *** just to make me cry, but I came out of it alright.

downhillbiker
04/09/2008, 10:38 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290648#post12290648 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kar93
I can see why you would think this. but the fish still ned the right enviroment not just feeding and good water. Like tangs need alot of room to fish where as a fish such as the clown goby sits there all day and can be kept in say a 2g pico.

i agree. these tanks are fine, but need to be housing fish that live stationary lives. keep a couple sexy shrimp, keep a clown goby, keep a cleaner shrimp, keep a small jawfish, but not all of them.

thecichlidpleco
04/09/2008, 10:39 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290523#post12290523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kar93
You say you have one months experience but then you say youve been reefing since 5 years ago. Not to be picky here but...... well you know.

Remember people can put what ever they want in their little avatar and quotes and not have it be true, either way dont put so much into someone with a supposed month or someone with a supposed decade.

I would say a cramped trip would suck, but it is only a trip. Terrible living conditions before you may or may not get purchased is worse imo. "Death"co tank would not be so fun to wait it out for hillbilly george to come pick you up.

dcombs44
04/09/2008, 10:41 AM
The argument here isn't whether or not I have more money and better equipment than the next guy, it's whether or not you are providing a suitable home for your tank inhabitants. A 3 gallon tank is not a suitable tank for any fish. If you want to talk about affordability, walk into petsmart and buy a 30 gallon tank for 30 bucks. If you can't afford a $30 tank, then you need to reconcider entering the hobby. It's well known throughout most hobbyists that you can provide sufficient care for a reef tank without the best equipment, the high dollar stuff can just make it easier. But a 3 gallon tank??? Come on. That's like buying a dog or a cat and knowing you didn't have the cash to feed it. It's cruel. Sure you love the dog, but if you can't feed it, that makes you a pretty crappy owner. Same scenario sticking a fish in a 1-3 gallon tank. It's cruel enough to stick them in a 300 gallon tank, but you've got to draw a line. They can't even turn around in a 1 gallon.

kar93
04/09/2008, 10:42 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290712#post12290712 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thecichlidpleco
Remember people can put what ever they want in their little avatar and quotes and not have it be true, either way dont put so much into someone with a supposed month or someone with a supposed decade.


Im not trying to start a big fued here but im jsut spreading my views. I dont see why someone would put they have 1 month if they really have 5 years etc.

BTW: Love your avatar:D:lol:

lowendmelody
04/09/2008, 10:44 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290555#post12290555 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug
"AS LONG AS THEY ARE LOVED AND PROVIDED FOR, THAT SHOULD BE THE ONLY TRUE CONCERN."

Are you kidding?
This is like Mice and Men.
Lenny loves the little bunnies so much he squeezes them to death.

Loving and care for your fish goes beyond your personal emotional connection to them. Caring for them means providing them with conditions that are conducive to their well being. A three gallon tank is not conducive to the well being of any fish, no matter how much you "love" them.

no I am not kidding and thank you for asking. I never said I kept a 3 gallon or agree with it. What I said is that these creatures need to be PROVIDED for, which to anyone who LOVES theyre fish and whatnot, I would assume would supply the necessary enviroment and take the necesssary steps in filtration and husbandry. I never said anything about stuffing the wrong fish or anyfish in a 3 gallon box. However, it is not up to me to reprimand someone else over it and they're budget. I've seen enough fish shipped, heard enough horror stories, and hae seen enough negligence at LFS's and whatnot to realize that even if that little yellow goby is in a 3 galon tank, he is lucky to be still living and have the oppurtunity to be given some care, let alone any care after what it has been through to that point.

Do not mistake me for someone who likes to think they take good care of they're fish, like the folks I mentioned earlier, but do not. I myself put alot of elbow grease and time into my efforts to care for my livestock, even though I don't have the biggest and the best setup or someone to share bills with, which would allow me to spend freely like some of you other folks do. Again, I never said I would stick a fish in a 3 gallon tank, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna reprimand someone for, again, putting that little goby in a 3 gallon tank, taking the necessary steps in maintenance and husbandry and giving it a loving home, emotional attachement or not. Thank you. :rollface:

kar93
04/09/2008, 10:46 AM
A 3 gallon tank is classed as a Pico they are kept by quite alot of people they are small and dont require much filtration or lighting you could just put a couple of corals in them and a clown goby, shrimp or something like that. The clown gobies are very small fish and they are hardy aswell and dont do much all day they just generally sit in the branches or SPS or sit on any other neighbouring coral. They also literally dont add anything to the bioload. Anyway lets get back on topic.

lowendmelody
04/09/2008, 10:50 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290778#post12290778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kar93
A 3 gallon tank is classed as a Pico they are kept by quite alot of people they are small and dont require much filtration or lighting you could just put a couple of corals in them and a clown goby, shrimp or something like that. The clown gobies are very small fish and they are hardy aswell and dont do much all day they just generally sit in the branches or SPS or sit on any other neighbouring coral. They also literally dont add anything to the bioload. Anyway lets get back on topic.

Thank you...... :D

seapug
04/09/2008, 10:57 AM
This isn't about money. This is about common sense in what you keep in the tank you have and can afford. The OP is trying to assert that because fish can survive a couple days of transport in a liter of water, that means that it's okay as permanent housing.

My first tank was a 12 gallon nano cube because that's what I could afford at the time, but just because that's all I could afford I didn't think it was okay to keep a Tang in it, even though I would have "loved it with all my heart." A three gallon tank is a fun experiment to try some hardy corals and perhaps a tiny, sedentary clown goby at most, but realize a weekend away without topoffs will probably spell disaster for it.

If you are on a tight budget, get a standard 10 gallon tank. If you can't afford that, then this probably isn't a hobby you should attempt right now.

SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 10:59 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290703#post12290703 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
i agree. these tanks are fine, but need to be housing fish that live stationary lives. keep a couple sexy shrimp, keep a clown goby, keep a cleaner shrimp, keep a small jawfish, but not all of them.

To come clean, I started up a one gallon tank, after it was cycled I put in a very very small Damsel to make the water ready for a Clown fish and I ask another forum and this one for help picking a Clown after I had put the Damsel in the tank. And all hell broke loose, I was told to bring that Damsel back to the store if I didn't know what I was doing. My mistake was that I put a Damsel in the one gallon tank before I asked the question, but that damsel is not going to be their for long, I wanted a Clown fish and they though I was crazy to even think that, the argument is still going on, and I don't think they are wrong, I just thought that there was a Clown that would do well in a small tank. So the Clown goby you say is good for a small tank, well I was told that NO FISH IS GOOD IN A SMALL TANK UNDER FIVE GALLONS. So I am going to turn that tank into a Reef Tank.

SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 11:20 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290748#post12290748 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kar93
Im not trying to start a big fued here but im jsut spreading my views. I dont see why someone would put they have 1 month if they really have 5 years etc.

BTW: Love your avatar:D:lol:


The reason I put one month is because I just started with reef in Nano tanks and like I said before I had no luck when I tried it ten years back and if you need information on where I use to buy my fish from I can give it to you, the name of the pet shop was "A World of Pet" and at the time they had a reef tank in the middle if the fish section, I move from NYC about three years ago and the last time I heard about them they had stopped selling Marine stuff and are just selling dogs. They are located in around 86th Street and 7th Ave in Brooklyn and they have a 2nd store on 5th Ave Sunset Park, Brooklyn. At the time I use to spend all my money in that place, they should still have my name in there system. What other information do you need to stop calling me a liar because, I put that I been in the Reef hobby for a month.

It's true my cousin gave me a ten gallon tank and setup as a gift and that is why I started up again
.

kar93
04/09/2008, 11:23 AM
I wasn't calling you a liar nor implying that. I was just confused.

Earl111
04/09/2008, 11:29 AM
There are also plenty of people in this hobby who will almost literally give things away. A guy near my house just gave away a 50 gallon and a stand for free. Like Pug said it's not about the $, it's about being responsible. We shouldn't feel like we are rescuing fish because they went though shipping and they would be lucky to be in any tank just to be out of a pet store

StunnaShadez
04/09/2008, 11:30 AM
doesnt apply to me.. i keep only corals :D

widmer
04/09/2008, 11:38 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290885#post12290885 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SwimSwimDiego
To come clean, I started up a one gallon tank, after it was cycled I put in a very very small Damsel to make the water ready for a Clown fish and I ask another forum and this one for help picking a Clown after I had put the Damsel in the tank. And all hell broke loose, I was told to bring that Damsel back to the store if I didn't know what I was doing. My mistake was that I put a Damsel in the one gallon tank before I asked the question, but that damsel is not going to be their for long, I wanted a Clown fish and they though I was crazy to even think that, the argument is still going on, and I don't think they are wrong, I just thought that there was a Clown that would do well in a small tank. So the Clown goby you say is good for a small tank, well I was told that NO FISH IS GOOD IN A SMALL TANK UNDER FIVE GALLONS. So I am going to turn that tank into a Reef Tank.

It doesn't matter what fish you put in a one gallon tank, the one gallon tank will never be ready for any fish. Meanwhile, if you are an aquariumkeeper whose wet/dry filter shuts off and you don't notice that it's off for 2 weeks, you probably won't be able to keep any coral alive in a five gallon tank for very long either.

It sounds like you just need to take some time to understand the mechanisms that govern water parameters. These little bodies of water are highly subject to change in temperature, dissolved organics etc. If you want to keep a little tank, buy a 20 gallon, this will give you some of the room for error that you're going to need. I know I would never put salt water in a tank that's under 20 gallons.

Amoore311
04/09/2008, 11:39 AM
Why are people bringing up an argument about people w/ expensive tanks looking down on people w/ little money?

To be honest I'm on this forum almost all day M-F browsing around while I'm at work. Very rarely will you see this attitude.

In this hobby you do in fact Get what you pay for. Whether you like it or not it's the truth 90% of the time.

If you can't afford expensive equipment that's fine, but the hobbyist needs to pick up the slack for the equipment.


Anyone arguing about people putting fish in Pico tanks do to lack of funds is utterly ridiculous.

For what it costs to buy a clown fish, you can go buy a 10 Gallon tank at Walmart and give it a 1/2 decent home.

Like another poster said, if you can't afford $10-$30 for a tank then you need to take a step back and assess your situation.

SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 11:41 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290875#post12290875 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug


If you are on a tight budget, get a standard 10 gallon tank. If you can't afford that, then this probably isn't a hobby you should attempt right now.

Well my budget is not tight and I do have a ten gallon tank as of now and a BioCube 8 that I plan on starting soon, like in the next few days. Right now I am waiting for a HQI that was shipped on 4-7-08 and will be getting to me by Friday if God willing, so the budget is not the problem. The problem was that I wanted to try putting together a one gallon tank and it caused a whole lot of trouble. I have posted my little tank on my galley

Amoore311
04/09/2008, 11:45 AM
Having a little tank is fine. Just stock it with some hearty corals and enjoy it that way.

kar93
04/09/2008, 11:46 AM
Bit off topic but what do you mean by
"Tank with fish to help make LR and LS stronger"?

seapug
04/09/2008, 11:52 AM
Diego, HQI's are great tanks. Wait until you get that to do your clownfish tank. I use one to house a pair of maroon clowns and a BTA colony and it's a healthy thriving system.

But do more research first. Things have changed a lot in the past 5 years. Using damsels and cocktail shrimp to cycle a tank is an outdated idea. Visit the Nano Reefs forum here and take a day to read. There are many great threads about easy mods and tips for setting the up HQI tanks with pictures to show what can be done. Good luck.

HowardW
04/09/2008, 11:57 AM
<<< It sounds like you just need to take some time to understand the mechanisms that govern water parameters. These little bodies of water are highly subject to change in temperature, dissolved organics etc. If you want to keep a little tank, buy a 20 gallon, this will give you some of the room for error that you're going to need. I know I would never put salt water in a tank that's under 20 gallons. >>>



Exactly! Tiny little tanks are too subject to greatly shifting water params and there's zero room for error.

SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 12:02 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12291297#post12291297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug
Diego, HQI's are great tanks. Wait until you get that to do your clownfish tank. I use one to house a pair of maroon clowns and a BTA colony and it's a healthy thriving system.



The 150W HQI pendent light is for my 10 Gallon tank. I am thinking of putting one Clown fish in the BioCube, depending on what I read on this site about other BioCube owners.

Earl111
04/09/2008, 12:03 PM
story time,
When I started this hobby i had a 20 long, put a yellow tang in it. I went to a store in Yonkers and they had a grouper there, not sure of the name, orange with blue spots. The OWNER of the pet store said " a 20 may be a little smal but they should be fine together. Don't have to tell you what happened. He also said , when asked about an ick problem " oh you denfinitely need a protien skimmer." Someone turned me on to reef central. I read and read for 3-5 months before I started up again. Im proud to say that I rarely ever loose a fish these days and most of my fish are in the 3-5 yr range. My point is that there are a lot of great people on this site that care a lot and have a ton of great experience. When we see someone making a point or arguing something that's been discussed over and over again, like putting fish in a 1-3 gallon tank. it can get a little frustrating and people can fly off the handle. With this hobby , there is a wealth of info and if everyone does thier research, we can vastly prolong the health and vitality of the fish in this hobby.

seapug
04/09/2008, 12:05 PM
sorry--misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about the 28 gal. JBJ HQI tanks.

If you are going to puta 150W MH over a ten gallon tank, be sure you have a good thermometer.

The advice to research and spend some time in the RC nano reefs forum still stands.

downhillbiker
04/09/2008, 12:24 PM
i agree with the comment of "if you have a tight budget get a standard 10 gallon tank. this is true. i would not put any fish in a 1 gallon, and only 1 really, really small stationary fish in a 3 gallon, but more likely crabs and shrimp. but in all reality a 10 gallon would be just as cheap and much better.

SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 03:04 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12291172#post12291172 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by widmer
It doesn't matter what fish you put in a one gallon tank, the one gallon tank will never be ready for any fish. Meanwhile, if you are an aquariumkeeper whose wet/dry filter shuts off and you don't notice that it's off for 2 weeks, you probably won't be able to keep any coral alive in a five gallon tank for very long either.



First of all at the time I was working from 4pm to 2am six days a week and would come home to feeding the fish, topping the tank with RO water and sleeping at least five hours to go back to work 1 1/2 hour away. And water changes are not done every week when you have a big tank or I would have noticed it before. But now I work as a Direct Mail Broker and sit all day and night home looking for things to do when I am off the phone with my clients. It's a lot easier for me to do things these days, so as far as time I have more time then most of the people on this site. And the main reason the wet dry went off on me was because my crook of a land lord was using my electric to power up his garage and they were down there messing around with there little car play mechanic and that side of the apartment went off and the only thing plug to that side was a lamp and the wet dry. Good thing it was an enclosed system or I would have had at least 30 gallons of water all over the rug.

Now who has time to waste on there hobby, Just 24 hrs a day if I don't sleep.

DS:strooper:

styndall
04/09/2008, 04:29 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12291327#post12291327 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HowardW
<<< It sounds like you just need to take some time to understand the mechanisms that govern water parameters. These little bodies of water are highly subject to change in temperature, dissolved organics etc. If you want to keep a little tank, buy a 20 gallon, this will give you some of the room for error that you're going to need. I know I would never put salt water in a tank that's under 20 gallons. >>>



Exactly! Tiny little tanks are too subject to greatly shifting water params and there's zero room for error.

Tiny tanks aren't as problematic as you might think. Many people keep fishless or single fish (tiny goby, etc.) reefs in the 2 to 5 gallon range. So long as you're careful, they're no harder to maintain than a larger system.

Check out the nano section here or the pico section on nano-reefs to see plenty of examples. I kept a fishless 3-gallon and got great growth out of my corals, all while having zero water quality problems.

seapug
04/09/2008, 04:56 PM
FISHLESS being the key. Diego is talking about putting a clownfish in a 3 gallon. Why? Because they can survive in a small bag of water during shipping no problem, so it's fine, right?

Wrong.

Diego also says:
"And water changes are not done every week when you have a big tank or I would have noticed it before"

Wrong again. Fish only tanks can tolerate quite a lot of neglect. Reefs cannot. I personally do partial changes weekly on all my tanks, a 10, 12, 28, and a 90. If I had a 3 gallon I'd probably do them daily.

Then there's Diego's wet/dry filter that was off for two weeks before it was noticed. If the power went off on most reefkeeper's sumps, it would take them about 30 seconds to notice it. It would take me a bout 5 seconds. 2 weeks with a dead sump and most reef tanks would be 1/3 empty from evaporation and everything would be dead.

Diego has a lot to learn. There's nothing wrong with that. The issue is with making crazy statements like "fish can live indefinitely in a bag of water" when you obviously know so little. All anyone is trying to do is encourage Diego to learn a little more before he subjects any more fish to the tortures of his misconceptions.

reefergeorge
04/09/2008, 05:19 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290600#post12290600 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
I agree. Why do people have to bash on others because we dont have the highest price equipment. I use odyssea light, odyssea uv sterilizer, viaaqua protein skimmer, and just ordered off brand ro/di unit. people act like it wont ever work, thats BS, not true at all.

"You get what you pay for" hmmm....if this were true we would all drive cars that cost $250k. This statement is just not true.

Your odyssea lights are fine if you like a yellow look. If you want to compare what your viaaqua skimmer pulls to mine. Bring it over, and your off brand rodi will work fine if you like nuisance algae.
There is a reason people buy the higher priced equipment, Because it works better, and more efficient.
Now go sit in a Bentley, and tell us how you miss your F150.

I have a nano cube 12, and think it would be cruel to keep any fish in that small of a tank. JMO

Megalodon
04/09/2008, 09:05 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290476#post12290476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lowendmelody
[B]People will complain and question others in the hobby and their practices, especially the people with more money in my opinion (not all). Those of us who don't have all the big money and big name equipment. I know you did not say this, this is my opinion. I definatly agree with you though.If you don't have enough money, I feel for you, but I have to say that you shouldn't be in this hobby then. I'm looking at a ten-gallon hospital tank I have here that cost me only $11 and I can't imagine saltwater fish in a tank less than a third of that size. You say love is more important but reality check... fish cannot feel your love. They can only experience the environment you provide for it. If your tank is too small, they will die, and what good would your love do then?

sprinj76
04/09/2008, 09:13 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290421#post12290421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jthomps123
I think the difference is shipment is temporary. 3-gal hell is a lifetime sentence. This is comparing apples to shoe-laces.

I agree. Only I think instead of lifetime sentence it should death sentence. The tiny box with a little water is just the holding cell for death row.

SwimSwimDiego
04/09/2008, 09:56 PM
Well the reading stands about the same.

Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-a little lighter then last night. Between 0 and 20
Alk-300
PH-8.4

I gave it a 10% water change about 3:00pm and all seem the same, little guy looks happy he even posed for pictures and normal breathing and not afraid of people movement and fed very good.


Daily Report, Over and Out. Scotty beam me up. Cheese Whizzzzzzzzzzz

DS :sleep: baby fish is sleeping

carlso63
04/09/2008, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by downhillbiker:

I agree. Why do people have to bash on others because we dont have the highest price equipment. I use odyssea light, odyssea uv sterilizer, viaaqua protein skimmer, and just ordered off brand ro/di unit. people act like it wont ever work, thats BS, not true at all.
"You get what you pay for" hmmm....if this were true we would all drive cars that cost $250k. This statement is just not true.

Originally posted by reefergeorge

Your odyssea lights are fine if you like a yellow look. If you want to compare what your viaaqua skimmer pulls to mine. Bring it over, and your off brand rodi will work fine if you like nuisance algae.
There is a reason people buy the higher priced equipment, Because it works better, and more efficient.
Now go sit in a Bentley, and tell us how you miss your F150.

I have a nano cube 12, and think it would be cruel to keep any fish in that small of a tank. JMO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the "truth" lies somewhere in the middle of those 2 opposing viewpoints.

And you have to make room for experience as well. Experience can allow a person to utilize "off brand" stuff in a more efficient way.

So, Biker, I would not say that "You get what you pay for" is untrue; I would say it was partially true: "Buyer beware and be informed before you buy" ...

And I also take issue with some of Georges comments. Experience told me to check out my tap water TDS before commiting to any RO / DI system; doing that first showed me that my local taps TDS was low enough that an "off brand" RO/DI unit would be MORE THAN ENOUGH - despite being told here (by several "experts" on the subject) that "...that POS won't even give you enough "0" TDS water to fill your (125 gallon) tank up!"

A year later my "POS" unit STILL gives me output at 0 - 2 ppm MAX TDS (checked and verified by several skeptical sources with their own handheld meters, BTW)

And Odyssea lights are perfectly fine IF you swap out the MH ballasts...

I also feel there are some here on RC who buy "expensive" for an additional reason - they like to brag about it.

Which (actually) is fine with me... heck, if I owned a "Bentley" I'd brag about it too!

And I "brag" about my new 225g setup ALL the time

(insert shameless plug here)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1354081

:D

RocketSeason
04/09/2008, 11:26 PM
sure a trip across country with your family all piled into the good 'ol family truckster isn't fun. But in a couple of days you can all relax and take a break. Go for a walk, see new sites. breath a little bit.

Try living in that station wagon for the rest of your life.

SwimSwimDiego
04/10/2008, 12:18 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12296172#post12296172 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RocketSeason
sure a trip across country with your family all piled into the good 'ol family truckster isn't fun. But in a couple of days you can all relax and take a break. Go for a walk, see new sites. breath a little bit.

Try living in that station wagon for the rest of your life.

1-But what are the chances of one of the family member dying from the bouncing around in the car?

2-Someone dropping one of the kids on the ground and killing him or her, just to make it to your house on time.

3- Maybe because it's to hot in your little car.

4-The wife dies in a pool in Bahamas because was overcrowded like the hold tanks in the islands take capture the fish that we all buy.

Maybe, Maybe, Maybe. I just love the way we all compare it to human life situations. It's a fish, and as long as we put them in tanks they are prisoners that are fed buy humans and not Mother Nature. :D :D :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbdown :thumbsup:

And I still love this hobby.:smokin:

DS
:strooper:

schigara
04/10/2008, 12:31 AM
Most of the responses have answered all the problems posed from the original posters questions.

I have just one thing to add that may be overlooked by many newcomers.

Most fish, when you buy them, are fairly small.

The OP states that he might want to keep a clownfish in a 3 gallon tank! Sure, a juvenile clown may be ok in a very very well maintianed 3 g tank for a few months.

You have to realize the smallest clownfish reach a full length of 3.5in and the largest, maroons, can almost grow to 7 inches.

That's a huge bioload on such a very small tank.

Having said this, I'm sure there will be some who will say, "You're full of crap, I have kept a pair of Maroon clowns in a 5g tank for the past 12 years and they are doing great and I have 0 nitrates."

schigara
04/10/2008, 01:02 AM
To be in this hobby, you have to be at least a little selfish because you want to keep something foreign and beautiful in a confined spaced for your own personal pleasure but come on, a line has to be drawn somewhere, doesn't it?

downhillbiker
04/10/2008, 01:12 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12291192#post12291192 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amoore311
Why are people bringing up an argument about people w/ expensive tanks looking down on people w/ little money?

To be honest I'm on this forum almost all day M-F browsing around while I'm at work. Very rarely will you see this attitude.

In this hobby you do in fact Get what you pay for. Whether you like it or not it's the truth 90% of the time.

If you can't afford expensive equipment that's fine, but the hobbyist needs to pick up the slack for the equipment.


Anyone arguing about people putting fish in Pico tanks do to lack of funds is utterly ridiculous.

For what it costs to buy a clown fish, you can go buy a 10 Gallon tank at Walmart and give it a 1/2 decent home.

Like another poster said, if you can't afford $10-$30 for a tank then you need to take a step back and assess your situation.

I just feel like if i make a post about lighting...people say my odyssea 760 watt metal halide isn't good enough, well thats not true. It will grow any coral out there, and looks good. My uv sterilizer, odyssea, got shun for that too. I recently posted thread for ro/di unit, and everyone said that my cheap unit wasnt good enough. well if it does 0 tds for a year, than it is just as good as others, but no, i was told over and over again that the unit wasnt good enough and i should spend at least 160 dollars.

downhillbiker
04/10/2008, 01:22 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12293601#post12293601 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefergeorge
Your odyssea lights are fine if you like a yellow look. If you want to compare what your viaaqua skimmer pulls to mine. Bring it over, and your off brand rodi will work fine if you like nuisance algae.
There is a reason people buy the higher priced equipment, Because it works better, and more efficient.
Now go sit in a Bentley, and tell us how you miss your F150.

I have a nano cube 12, and think it would be cruel to keep any fish in that small of a tank. JMO

Common now, have you ever heard of 14k or 20k bulbs? hey they're not yellow, i guess you learned something today. My skimmer pulls 1/2" of dry skimmate a day, and when i run wet i have to empty the cup every 4 hours and that skimmate is still green. Ro/Di? Do you know what you're talking about, nuisance algae, 0 TDS is 0 TDS, thats all there is to it.

I like Ford. Or Dodge, Toyota, just dont give me one of those overpriced vehicles that you cant work on and pay 5x the price for a oil pan, even though it is just a piece of 16 gauge sheet metal.

Earl111
04/10/2008, 08:09 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RocketSeason
sure a trip across country with your family all piled into the good 'ol family truckster isn't fun. But in a couple of days you can all relax and take a break. Go for a walk, see new sites. breath a little bit.

Try living in that station wagon for the rest of your life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1-But what are the chances of one of the family member dying from the bouncing around in the car?

2-Someone dropping one of the kids on the ground and killing him or her, just to make it to your house on time.

3- Maybe because it's to hot in your little car.

4-The wife dies in a pool in Bahamas because was overcrowded like the hold tanks in the islands take capture the fish that we all buy.

Maybe, Maybe, Maybe. I just love the way we all compare it to human life situations. It's a fish, and as long as we put them in tanks they are prisoners that are fed buy humans and not Mother Nature.

And I still love this hobby.

Guys , we are all wasting our breath, it's obvious from the statement above we are not going to change Diego's mind. It's like one of my friends that says, well if i had a dog and didn't want it anymore it's my rite to bring it out bac and shoot it in the head. It's just a dog!

Fishfreak218
04/10/2008, 09:35 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290399#post12290399 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SwimSwimDiego
how often do fish fly in the wild sea "Never'.
wrong.
http://i29.*******.com/33ol2td.jpg

;)

SwimSwimDiego
04/10/2008, 10:59 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12297504#post12297504 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Earl111
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RocketSeason
sure a trip across country with your family all piled into the good 'ol family truckster isn't fun. But in a couple of days you can all relax and take a break. Go for a walk, see new sites. breath a little bit.

Try living in that station wagon for the rest of your life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Guys , we are all wasting our breath, it's obvious from the statement above we are not going to change Diego's mind. It's like one of my friends that says, well if i had a dog and didn't want it anymore it's my rite to bring it out bac and shoot it in the head. It's just a dog!

It's not that I don't care about the fish, becuase if I didn't care i would not be posting up all of the water reading, day after day. I just hate when people compare it to real human life situations.

And if I thought like your friend, I would of got a Dog or maybe a horse and rode him around till he breaks a leg and shoot him in the head to get him out of his misories.

We are talking about a fish, lets be REAL.

Earl111
04/10/2008, 11:13 AM
I'm not saying that you don't care at all Diego. I'm simply trying to put it in perspective as we all are with the plane and family truckster references. Because we have the ability to communicate and reason , it's our responsibility to be responsible about mother nature. From your statement above, you feel that a fish's life is less significant than a dog or a horse. Is a dog's life more important than a $100 queen angel because you can pet it and take it for a walk? Or is it everyone's perception? Would you keep a Saint Bernard in a Studio apartment? We are making references to people to give you an idea of what an animal must go through. I agree by taking specimens out of the ocean isn't exactly right to begin with and we are never going to exactly duplicate the ocean or make them as comfortable as thier natural enviorment. But because of this it doesn't give us a free pass to do whatever we want. what we can do is give them the best enviorment possible. That includes not putting a clown in a one gallon just because we can

Megalodon
04/10/2008, 11:17 AM
Diego, you just started another thread about this.

One is enough.

kar93
04/10/2008, 11:25 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12296356#post12296356 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SwimSwimDiego
1-But what are the chances of one of the family member dying from the bouncing around in the car?

2-Someone dropping one of the kids on the ground and killing him or her, just to make it to your house on time.

3- Maybe because it's to hot in your little car.

4-The wife dies in a pool in Bahamas because was overcrowded like the hold tanks in the islands take capture the fish that we all buy.

Maybe, Maybe, Maybe. I just love the way we all compare it to human life situations. It's a fish, and as long as we put them in tanks they are prisoners that are fed buy humans and not Mother Nature. :D :D :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbdown :thumbsup:

And I still love this hobby.:smokin:

DS
:strooper:

when they are in tanks they are still part of nature, as are we. You may see things this way but you still would be incredibley stressed out by doing all of these. If you go to the Bahamas and the pool was way too crowded and increibly cramped youre wife is going to be P'd off! A clownfish in a 1gallon - Cramped space, lack of oxygen, high bioload, unstable water, stress, Not much space to swim.

Anemone
04/10/2008, 11:45 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12291172#post12291172 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by widmer
It doesn't matter what fish you put in a one gallon tank, the one gallon tank will never be ready for any fish.

Sorry, I couldn't let this stand. An experienced hobbyist could keep one of several different types of regularly-available hobby fish in a one gallon tank. A neon goby or a barnacle blennie would work very well in a very small tank like this.

Would I recommend it to just anyone? Nope. But a small biotope tank can be both challenging and rewarding to an experienced hobbyist.

Kevin

Earl111
04/10/2008, 11:54 AM
I agree Kevin, but not to someone who hasn't noticed his sump had gone dry and there was no water movement for two weeks!

lowendmelody
04/10/2008, 01:45 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12295295#post12295295 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Megalodon
If you don't have enough money, I feel for you, but I have to say that you shouldn't be in this hobby then. I'm looking at a ten-gallon hospital tank I have here that cost me only $11 and I can't imagine saltwater fish in a tank less than a third of that size. You say love is more important but reality check... fish cannot feel your love. They can only experience the environment you provide for it. If your tank is too small, they will die, and what good would your love do then?

Don't feel for me. I never said I didn't have the money to be in this hobby. I just choose NOT to spend all that money. Don't get me wrong, the bigger the enviroment the better, and in MOST cases, the bigger more expensive equipment works significantly better. I know this, at this time I am planning my own upgarde and looking into my setup and equipment I will be considering.

However, in this sense I am speaking from personal experience. Not even looking where your from, if you live in Socal, you would know that there is no place else on the planet that is more materialisitc and superficial. ALOT of the bigger system owners I have met, would much rather sit there and talk about themselves and the expensive equipment they have and how much they spent on it. You'd be surprised how many of these people know much less than I or my peers, but wont value our opinion because they know they have the best equipment so they think everything will just work out fine. WRONG. THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM A BETTER AQUARISTS. PASSION AND EDUCATING YOURSELF ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT IN THIS HOBBY IN MY OPINION. This hobby does not begin and end with money and how much money you've spent on it, IT BEGINS AND ENDS WITH A PASSION, AND A DRIVE. A passion, not an emotional attachement such as love that you might have for your dog or mother or girlfriend, but a genuine concern for your animals well being.

Please understand, I am not being bitter or trying to start a arguement or an issue of how much people will spend because I am just as frugal as the next person. I love to spend money on whatever I'd like. However right now, I only have a 72 gallon with two aquaclear 110's stuffed with rubble and a hangon prizm deluxe pro, which I know these things are crap compared to even the smaller basic EuroReef's or whatever, but it does remove a good amount of wet skim weekly and I do 25 percent water change every week. I have 5 fish and 4 nice big peices of Tonga Branching and it is barebottom, with great flow. I vacuum any detrius that gathers a bit in one corner every 2 days. Can you sit there and seriously tell me that the person with the 300 gallon and 30 to 50 fish, alot of them being big tangs, even with the 100 gallon sump and a better skimmer than I and has lots of corals that exude lots of slime. Are you actually gonna tell me this person has better water quality than I? That would be ignorant if you did. And no one here said that, I am just saying as example.

Love, passion, call it whatever you want.

and again, I never said that I would put any fish in a 3 galon tank, but I'm not gonna rip this dude for doin it, as long as it is a small, very small, solitary fish. As long as he has the passion and urge to educate himself and take the proper steps, then by all means, see what you can do my man and the best of luck to ya!:D

Regardless, most of you have helped me more than you will ever know, even though you may think I sound bitter. I love this place for the sake of vonversation and info sharing on a killer hobby that most of us truly love, and I am so glad that a year and ahalf ago i jioned ReefCentral, it's one of the best things to happen to me in this hobby!

Megalodon
04/10/2008, 02:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12299741#post12299741 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lowendmelody
Regardless, most of you have helped me more than you will ever know, even though you may think I sound bitter. I love this place for the sake of vonversation and info sharing on a killer hobby that most of us truly love, and I am so glad that a year and ahalf ago i jioned ReefCentral, it's one of the best things to happen to me in this hobby! Sorry, disregard that post. I thought I was speaking to and had quoted SwimSwim, not you. I didn't mean to make you feel like you had to explain that all. Very silly oversight/error on my part.

lowendmelody
04/10/2008, 02:16 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12299877#post12299877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Megalodon
Sorry, disregard that post. I thought I was speaking to and had quoted SwimSwim, not you. I didn't mean to make you feel like you had to explain that all. Very silly oversight/error on my part.

No worries. My bad too, I wasn't trying to put you on blast or anything, but I've been following this thread and a few of the other comments was more of the reason for my point or view. I do feel that people can be real reefsnobs, but you are not one and I hope you didn't feel any animosity towards yourself my friend:rollface:

reefergeorge
04/10/2008, 09:35 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12296545#post12296545 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
Common now, have you ever heard of 14k or 20k bulbs? hey they're not yellow, i guess you learned something today. My skimmer pulls 1/2" of dry skimmate a day, and when i run wet i have to empty the cup every 4 hours and that skimmate is still green. Ro/Di? Do you know what you're talking about, nuisance algae, 0 TDS is 0 TDS, thats all there is to it.

I like Ford. Or Dodge, Toyota, just dont give me one of those overpriced vehicles that you cant work on and pay 5x the price for a oil pan, even though it is just a piece of 16 gauge sheet metal.

If I have to change the ballast, and bulbs as soon as I get a light it should be a good indicator. Also don't forget to open the light and tighten the loose wire connections. Or you could have a fire. Not worth it to me.
And 0 tds isn't the same across the board. I'm not an ro expert, but start a thread with that question, and see what others say.
In this hobby you get what you pay for. Unless you are a decent diy er.

downhillbiker
04/10/2008, 09:57 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12303757#post12303757 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefergeorge
If I have to change the ballast, and bulbs as soon as I get a light it should be a good indicator. Also don't forget to open the light and tighten the loose wire connections. Or you could have a fire. Not worth it to me.
And 0 tds isn't the same across the board. I'm not an ro expert, but start a thread with that question, and see what others say.
In this hobby you get what you pay for. Unless you are a decent diy er.

You dont have to change the bulbs and ballasts. Here's my tank with totally stock bulbs/ballasts. It is more of a white color, than the yellow. I will never change the ballasts, they are fine. I checked out the wires when I got it, and they were good, the reason they had all the fires was due to a non-electronic ballast.

I too am not a TDS expert, but 0 TDS on a meter, is 0 TDS. There is no if ands or buts about it. There is no way that with 0 TDS on a meter (made by a different company-handheld) is not as pure as it can be. FYI my TDS is only 30-40 before I even treat it. That is one of the lowest, if not THE LOWEST in the whole country.

downhillbiker
04/10/2008, 10:00 PM
Sorry Heres the PIC: (i have more live rock curing as we speak)
And yes I will get 14k bulbs, but not until these wear out, and I will buy odyssea 14k bulbs because I am very impressed.
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/IMG_2293.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/IMG_2324.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/blue.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/condi.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/IMG_2319.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/green.jpg

seapug
04/11/2008, 08:29 AM
Biker, you need to stop spending money on Acro colonies and lightbulbs and spend some money on more live rock. I know you say you have more curing, but it should go in the tank before the Acros.

Based on your previous posts I know you are a little paranoid about the wight of the rock, but Live rock is more than decoration. It's very important for maintaining proper water chemistry and establishing biological filtration. Based on the green algae coating everything in your tank, it is not ready for any corals, especially SPS colonies.

Amoore311
04/11/2008, 08:44 AM
Yeah something is up with that algae. I don't really see many pooping creatures in there either...

I think I see a Cardinal, B&W Clown, and an Urchin (nice Urchin btw)


Wondering how you could be getting so much algae if that's all you have in there. Do you have a tank build thread so I can ask questions on it w/o cluttering up this thread........even though it is a terrible thread to begin with lol?

kar93
04/11/2008, 08:49 AM
I think this thread is useless and wasting forum space.
Any mods here to close?

downhillbiker
04/11/2008, 09:43 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12304595#post12304595 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug
Biker, you need to stop spending money on Acro colonies and lightbulbs and spend some money on more live rock. I know you say you have more curing, but it should go in the tank before the Acros.

Based on your previous posts I know you are a little paranoid about the wight of the rock, but Live rock is more than decoration. It's very important for maintaining proper water chemistry and establishing biological filtration. Based on the green algae coating everything in your tank, it is not ready for any corals, especially SPS colonies.

I have all the rock spaced out in the tank and it is probably more than you think. I have about 40lbs in there now, and 40 more lbs curing. it will be put in next week. the tank has been set up for about 6+ months and everything is happy, but yes i have some algae. The rock and sand i have in there was from my other tank, that was set up for 2 years, so it is well established. a good indicator is pods, and they literally make the rocks look like they are crawling at night time.

i think the bio filtration is where it needs to be, i have perfect water parameters, and i think the algae problem lied in not using ro/di water. i now use ro/di and the algae has cut back a ton!

i admit that i shoudn't necessarily have acros, but i didn't know they were so difficult/touchy. a local reefer had an add on craigslist, and when i went over there he said they would be easy, no problem. i had some tissue loss, but they are good now, and rebuilding tissue and adding color again. they were too close to the light, and the ro/di problem contributed too.

kar93
04/11/2008, 09:45 AM
One thing will be your use of tap water contributing to phosphates and other nutrients. If thats 40lbs in there now then you will need alot more than another 40lbs.

downhillbiker
04/11/2008, 09:45 AM
i will start a tank build thread for comments, and tips.

downhillbiker
04/11/2008, 09:48 AM
I know i need more than 40lbs more but i also want more of an open look, i will have two structures of rock that go 3/4 up the tank, and move the rock in the midddle. i think that it will look like many that i have seen in here before.

yes i know the tap water contributed, but now i am using ro/di and like i said the algae (in 2 days) is more than half gone.

downhillbiker
04/11/2008, 09:51 AM
i will start the tank build thread in a week so i can show what it looks like with the new rock and no algae.

amoore311: there is 2 tangs in there a 2" regal tang, and a 2.5" tomini tang, a maroon gold stripe clown, and a 4 stripe damsel.

the rest of my stocking list will be added to the tank next week, they are in qt now.

flame angel
coral beauty angel
royal gramma
rainford's goby

styndall
04/11/2008, 10:07 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12303757#post12303757 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefergeorge
If I have to change the ballast, and bulbs as soon as I get a light it should be a good indicator. Also don't forget to open the light and tighten the loose wire connections. Or you could have a fire. Not worth it to me.
And 0 tds isn't the same across the board. I'm not an ro expert, but start a thread with that question, and see what others say.
In this hobby you get what you pay for. Unless you are a decent diy er.

While Odyssey might not be the best fixture, it will suffice, and this hobby suffers from as much price-queen status syndrome as any Manhattan social circle. "You get what you pay for" is a true adage, but largely in the same sense as "a fool and his money are soon parted." With both equipment and corals, you're often paying a huge premium for a label on the shipping box.

Finding a good balance between price and quality is critical, and to find this balance, you've got to discard the "spending more is always better" attitude that's so frequent on these boards.

cwilson
04/11/2008, 03:44 PM
ive got a news flash for everyone...

regardless of what anyone here on RC will tell any other member on RC, there is no guarantee that they will take the adive or listen in the least bit. not saying its righ tor wrong, or that ANYONE on here has 100% of the answers, but i sometimes think people forget this

and i really dont want to sound cruel, or start any fights here, but if anyone is REALLY AND TRUELY that upset over someone giving a fish the improper care in any sort, they themselves better not have a fishtank. there is a lot of death that goes into this hobby. dont get me wrong, i think captive reefs are super awesome, and i think its a fun and enjoyable (although expensive) hobby. but i think 99% of us here have killed a fish before. hell, i used to have fresh water oscars. i killed an average of 2 dozen minnows each week :rolleyes:


BUT ANYWAY...

although i think there are clearly acceptable and unacceptable tank sizes AKA "can i keep a nurse shark in my 30?" "will my 4 damsels be ok in my currently unstocked 220?", there are other things you must consider. mainly filtration/mntc, flow, aquascaping, and tankmates. now i mean no disrespect to any examples i may use, but its something we can all look up and see.

filtration/mntc- this one is somewhat self explanitory. i fyou have a strong filtration setup (be it skimmer, fuge, CUC, carbon, whatever), you can support a bioload accordingly. now keep in mind this is completely disregarding the amount of room in the display, which you should never do. also, overall system volume can be a similar factor

flow- i had a 46gallon bowfront set up for quite a while. i had 6 blue/green chromis in the tank, along with a 6line wrasse, bicolor blenny, and two anthias'. the chromis would spend about 75% of the day swimmign directly into my sump return as hard as they could. i guess in nature they stay in water columns to get food. now, you have to think as to what would happen if i had the same group of fish in a 10 gallon, but with strong flow like in the 46. i would be willing to bet they would send most of their time in the water column, like before. so, i can sort of say that if you have decetn flow, and the fish have a spot to sort of "hop on the water treadmill" this would be a factor in selecting a tank size. an example i have is an RC member that put a sinle clown in a 5.5 gallon. i supported him for the reason of having good flow.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...25&pagenumber=1

aquascaping- the October of 2002 TOTM, Chuck Fiterman's AKA MtnDewMan, is a perfect example. although his tanking is stunning, and i am totally jealous, it is rather crowded. you can see in a few of his pictures just how many SPS he has in there. it seems that a 75 gallon has kind of become the minimum size for tangs. if you were to put a yellow tang in there, from the looks of the pictures, the fish could not in swim at the top it is so jammed with SPS. not such a good idea. i think aquascaping plays a pretty big role in whether or not the fish belongs in the tank.

tankmates- i think this one is pretty simple too. if al lthe fish are constantly getting into the others personal space/ no one has anywhere to go, thats ot ok. is a yellow tang ok in a 6ft 125gal, with an "average" amount of lie rock? i would say so, and i doubt too many people here would disagree. but, what about 8 yellow tangs in the same tank? thats a different story..


FINAL DISCLAIMER- im merely giving my $0.02 worth. i REALLY do not mean to offend anyone, or point out anyone doing things right or wrong. i think the two tanks i used for specific examples are awesome, they both are great tanks. i just think some people here on RC try to have a solid exact number for what fish/how many in what sized tank, and i think that there will never really be an EXACT, end-all-be-all number. simpley becasue of all the factors i mentioned above

seapug
04/11/2008, 04:17 PM
right cwilson...you can push SOME limits within reason with due consideration to the factors you mentioned, as well as diligent husbandry.

I think the issue people have with the OP of this thread is when someone who is new to the hobby and has a history of being less than attentive to their previous tanks (i.e. not noticing the return pump in their sump was off for two weeks) and has some severe misunderstandings about the needs of captive fish (ok in a bag for 2 days of shipping = fine forever) thinks they can do the same.

gman0526
04/11/2008, 04:53 PM
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i303/ReefPR/popcorn.gif

tkeracer619
04/11/2008, 05:15 PM
I don't see what the fuss is about. I would stock it with a sohal tang....

All kidding aside those of you who KNOW that a fish can't live in a 3g are plain wrong. Many people do it succesfully. Obviously it has to be stocked properly but no need to jump all over the guy because he might or might not have 1 month experience.

I find it funny that someone wouldnt know the return pump is off, especially for a matter of weeks. There was this lady that had her husbands old tank and I had to break it down.... she left all the pumps plugged in and never topped the tank off for 5 months... with 4 kids in the apartment. She is lucky she didnt burn down the complex..... people don't always pay attention to details no matter how bad you want them to.

SwimSwimDiego
04/11/2008, 11:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12308452#post12308452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tkeracer619
I don't see what the fuss is about. I would stock it with a sohal tang....



I find it funny that someone wouldnt know the return pump is off, especially for a matter of weeks. There was this lady that had her husbands old tank and I had to break it down.... she left all the pumps plugged in and never topped the tank off for 5 months... with 4 kids in the apartment. She is lucky she didnt burn down the complex..... people don't always pay attention to details no matter how bad you want them to.

Well when you live NYC if you don't have two jobs or good overtime in one job, you just don't make it and between working, driving to and from work six days a week. You forget your name at times from being so tired. Maybe if the powerheads were plugged in the same outlet I would of had a better chance, we all make mistake, tell me no. And those few that don't you must live a sweet life.

DS:strooper:

Tylt33
04/12/2008, 12:38 AM
I found that you can easily fit three tangs in a one gallon tank... if you use a blender.

SwimSwimDiego
04/12/2008, 02:21 AM
LOL

cwilson
04/13/2008, 06:12 PM
gman- :lol: :lol: i love the popcorn face! thats too funny! :lol: