Refugium & DSB Questions.

[happyclam]

I have a few questions on DSB's:
1) What sand did you use to set-up your DSB, & to what depth?
2) Do you have to replace 1/4 of the sand yearly to prevent "pollution" from building up in sabd bed? If so, how do you do this?
3) What did you think of it, and was it effective?

For the filter I was goiing to have a DSB, live rock, and chaeto algae in my sump, lit by (2) 18w P.C.s, combined with a 10% weekly water change. Does sound O.K. as a filter?

[das75]

Had a DSB in my 75g with sugar sized sand ~5 inches. Didn't change out a 1/4 a year but did occasionally add sand to keep the level up.

There's lots of DSB bashing out there but when I moved after the DSB setup for more than 3 years and removed the DSB there was no foul smell, nothing to indicate it was a crap trap etc. I'm sure a maintained DSB (by use of snails etc) will function.

That being said, I'm currently BB and relying on LR only for a bio-filter and nitrates always test zero or near zero. Basically don't believe you need a DSB for nitrate reduction. If I was the do sand again (will admit sand for looks still has pluses over BB, but BB way more convenient) I would just go will a SSB and probably not more than an inch.

[newyorkstyles]

Deep sand beds are the way to go. I would not run a marine system without one. My experience with DSB's have resulted in zero nitrates and no waterchanges on both my 45 gallon and 90 gallon tanks.

On the 45 gallon FOWLR tank, I have a 4" DSB, 65 Lbs. live rock, HOB Aquafuge refugium, CPR Back Pack protein skimmer and a Fluval 305 canister filter. I have not performed water changes in over a year and my fishes are healthy and colorful. I only add supliments when depleted and top off water using a 5 stage spectrapure RO/DI system.

On my 90 gallon reef, I have a 4" DSB of Natures Ocean live sand, 110 Lbs. of fiji and tonga live rock, AquaC EV 180 Skimmer and a 30 gallon sump.

With the right size sand (less than 2 CM) and a good clean up crew as well as top quality RO/DI water, no water changes are needed. I would only consider doing a water change if my corals spawn or fishes get sick but that has yet to happen in my systems.

[cweder]

I think you can go either way on this one. I think if you have a quality modern skimmer and keep detritus from building up in the tank/fuge/sump areas you can manage very well without the DSB or refugium. I like sand in the tank, but it does not need to be that deep. Investing in a good skimmer and you likely will never need this other stuff.

[newyorkstyles]

I agree with you on the skimmer. The problem is that the end process of the cycle is nitrates and you cannot remove nitrates from a marine tank with just the skimmer. The skimmer helps remove undisolved organic matter before it turns into amonia but does not remove nitrates. so what can be done about nitrates in a tank that has a nitrate problem? The answer lies in using a natural means of nitrate removal which is done via a DSB when anaerobic bacteria establishes itself in the lower part of the sand bed. Once this bacteria establishes itself you will begin to see gas bubbles form in under the sand bed. The gas bubbles are the waste produced by the anaerobic bacteria eating the nitrate and converting it into nitronious gas. This gas is then slowly released into the surface of the tank via the clean up crew and critters in your tank. Hence no water changes are needed because there is no evidence of any waste in your system as it is being cycled constantly. One of the best aspects of marine keeping is that everything eats everything in a marine tank when properly set up.

The evidence is clear when you test your water and no nitrates are present. I have gotten into discussions with LFS owners that say it is impossible that you dont have nitrates in your tank and that the only way to remove nitrates is via water changes. What I do is take then some of my water and then they say ok maybe you are right.

[cweder]

I know the DSB will work, but if the skimmer pulls out the waste before it can breakdown to nitrate you are a step ahead of the game. If you have a nitrate problem you can also do the vodka/sugar dosing although I think this is putting a bandaid on a problem until you can find a real solution. The best solution may be the DSB and refuge. Adding more coral will also help by feeding on the waste too. If you go DSB I would use the finest sand you can find that will stay put with the flow you intend to use and then a maintenance crew to keep it worked otherwise it may get chunky. For a fuge I would use chaeto with high flow to keep it turning. Low flow will let detritus to build in the fuge, fueling the chaeto but not what you want. When you can keep the chaeto from growing much in a month then your probably doing something right and dont need it anymore unless you like the pods that can grow in it.

[newyorkstyles]

I hear you on this one and agree with you but with that kind of system, bi weekly water changes are needed. Do you do water changes on your tank? I preffere to do less maintenance on my tank and the ditritus that settles on the sand in my tank is consumed by the worms, pods, sanils, hermit crabs, and 2 brittle stars I own. As a matter of fact, with a DSB and a good amount of live rock, a refugium is not needed since your main display will act as your refugium. Unless you want to refuge a perticular animal you own away from the display and or grow extra pods for feeding your fish.

[LPS_Blasto]

I am currently struggling with this. I've always liked the tall tanks and always run a DSB. Even in a nano without much room.

I just bought a 110 bare tank and don't really know which way to go. I have a 30g to use as a sump. Not sure if I want to try a BB tank and just use the 30g as a refugium. Of course, it would have a skimmer compartment.

I guess I don't understand the difference between a sump and a refugium. I know a refugium is supposed to be a "refuge" for more delicate animals in the system. I like refugiums with a DSB and a large chunk of cheato. Does a sump just run faster water flow? No cheato? How would you describe the difference between the two?

I want to use a DSB in the DT and the refugium. It's what I'm used to doing and it works. I never register any nitrates in my systems and I only trim cheato every couple months. Must be doing something right. Logic tells me not to alter what I've been doing.

But I kinda want to try a BB tank and still use a DSB in the refugium.

BTW, this is the biggest tank I've ever had. It's going to be an LPS dominated reef with plenty of cool zoas, ricordia, polyps and mushrooms. No softies or SPS. Minimal fish. Maybe a goby or two and a wrasse. Might try a dwarf angel.

Any suggestions? :confused:

[Paul_PSU]

You can always go with a BB tank and a RDSB. I just set one up in a 5gal bucket with 50lbs of sand. I also have a 5 inch dsb in my tank. I have 3 big *** nassarius snails the bury themselves under the sand and when I feed they come up like zombies and eat all the food off of the surface. I will add a serpent star to get in between the rocks also.

Paul

[LPS_Blasto]

I considered the RDSB. It's convenient, because if it fails, you just unplug it from the loop. It's inconvenient because of the extra plumbing.

Might not be a bad idea though. Even a 3g bucket, or a rubbermaid container would do the job.

[newyorkstyles]

LPS_Blasto........I am with you when you stated "if it's not broken, dont fix it". What works for you may not work for others and if you had previous success with DSB's I would stick with it. I would use the maim display as a DSB, live rock and a great clean up crew so that the critters tanke care of the waste and ditritus on the display and nitrates maintain at zero without water changes. The main idea is to keep it as natural as possible for better succes and less maintenance. I would use your sump to house un-atural filtration such as the skimmer, filter sock, chemi pure elite and activated carbon. Both ways work well but if were you, I would weigh out the pros and cons of both set ups and then make a decision. My main goal in this hobby is to never ever see nitrates on my tank. here are some pics of my 90 Tech Tank with a DSB in the main display.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/1871501-med.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/1871502.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/1871503.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/1871504-med.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/1/18715027.jpg

No water changes in this tank and the fish are happy and colorfull. Infact, I've heard several stories of people that swear that water changes do more damage than good to your live stock.

[newyorkstyles]

Oh, and one other thing. Lets not forget strong water movement.

[saltyFISHscales]

Newyorkstyles, what type of snails and how many do you have? What type of clean up crew you running, if you don't mind me asking.

[newyorkstyles]

60 turbo snails, 20 nazarus snails, 6 fancy nazarus snails (good critters that burry in your sand), 14 cerith snails, 30 red leg hermits, 20 blue leg hermits, 3 emerald crabs, 2 porcelain crabs, 2 brittle stars and a bullet goby that spends all day sifting sand in his mouth and out his gills.

Aside from this crew I made sure I purchased large pieces of live rock (7 pieces only on my 90 equalin 110 Lbs) with lots of holes so that the population of copods and amphipods have places to hide. These hitchikers are a must and constantly clean everything, especially at night.

If you allow your sand bed and rocks to develope massive amounts of natural hitchikers such as worms and pods by not adding fish for 3 months, your hitchiker population will stay strong for as long as your system runs. If you feel you want to rush and see life in your system within this three month period, then add the clean up crew first after the cycle and then stock up on corals.

This crew keeps the tank so clean that I often have to replace some snails from time to time (about 5 a month) because the hermits run out of food and pray on the snails.

[das75]

Again, I've got a 145g reef (SPS, LPS, Soft, clam) and a moderate fish load (2 tangs, foxface, 3 clowns, 2 damsels, 6-line) and my nitrates with Salifert regularly test zero but there is a rare time might have one increment above zero (believe 0.1). This is without a DSB and running BB in my display, refugium and sump. I do a 10% water change every 2-3 weeks.

My experience is a DSB is not necessary for nitrate reduction.

To someone new I would suggest a setup with either BB or a SSB, plenty of LR and the occasional water change.

If it is determined that nitrates are a problem after the tank setup for a while, then look into a RDSB. This can be done in either a old 5g salt pail or by adding a DSB to the sump. Couple of other way to deal with Nitrates is with a Sulphur reactor here (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1288082) or even just a coil (there's different builds on those around as well).

[newyorkstyles]

For those of you that enjoy doing water changes and spending the extra cash on sea mixes and RO water, then by all means, do you!

I have 2 very close friends that own marine tanks and both have readings of nitrates on the 20 PPM scale constantly. both have a nitate leveI suggested the DSB apprach and one of them gave it a try. In a week and a half, my friend had 5 ppm nitrates and in 2 months the nitrates were gone. And he feeds heavily with DT's phytoplankton and all kinds of frozen meaty foods.

[Paul_PSU]

I have found out one thing when setting up a RDSB; the output of the RDSB needs to be above the sump if you are going to use the 5gal bucket and lid approach. I had it outside of the stand on the floor and the output was about 3 inches below the top of the sump and the water was dripping out from under the lid(not very much just a couple drops every 30 secs). I put a small box under the bucket and now the output is about 4 - 5" above the sump and no drip. :D I have an MJ1200 pumping water through mine. I did not want to use a smaller pump since the flow would have been too slow.

[newyorkstyles]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12307985#post12307985 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by happyclam
I have a few questions on DSB's:
1) What sand did you use to set-up your DSB, & to what depth?
2) Do you have to replace 1/4 of the sand yearly to prevent "pollution" from building up in sabd bed? If so, how do you do this?
3) What did you think of it, and was it effective?

For the filter I was goiing to have a DSB, live rock, and chaeto algae in my sump, lit by (2) 18w P.C.s, combined with a 10% weekly water change. Does sound O.K. as a filter?
Here's an interesting link to help you answer your questions. http://kb.marinedepot.com/article.aspx?id=10151

[Los]

"With the right size sand (less than 2 CM) and a good clean up crew as well as top quality RO/DI water, no water changes are needed. "

NewYorkStyles, please don't take this the wrong way. You have clearly found something that works for you and I happen to agree that sand beds are great. That said, I'm wondering a bit about suggesting to folks - especially self described beginners - that they don't need water changes. Most experts would suggest otherwise. That said, I'd like to hear more about your system:

How long have you been keeping reefs and how long have you kept your 90 running?

How do you supplement the micro nutrients that your corals use up and do you test for those or just wing it?

Cheers,

Los

[newyorkstyles]

I want you to know that I understand where you are coming from in regards to me giving people advice on DBS's and no water changes or better said, very few water changes a year. This is a very controvercial topic and I have had numerous discussions with many marine aquarists about this recieving both negative and possitive feedback on the issue.

Ever since I set up my first marine tank a little over 6 years ago, I was drawn deeply into this hobby eventually leading to the experimentations of different marine set ups. I am one of those individuals that like to experiment and so tried to find the best and easiest way to maintain a reef aquarium. With that said, Here are my thoughts on this appraoch and a little of my background when it comes to reefkeeping and DSB's.

First, let me start out by stating that there is a lot of bashing on the net about DSB's and statements that water changes on a weekly, bi-weekly or monthly are a must. If you read up on the history of marine keeping, just 20 years ago it was thought that deep sand beds were a ditritus trap and that keeping your marine system as sterile as possible was the way to go. Times have changed and most aquarists are still stuck on the past and dont like to try new appraoches.

My fisrt marine tank was a 45 Gallon FOWLR tank which eventualy turned into a reef with SPS and LPS corals. Initially, for about the fist year, I had a 1" sandbed, bleached coral rocks, and did not use RO/DI water resulting in a constnat battle (via water changes) against nuisance algae, nitrates, silica, and phosphates. Just when I was about to give up on the hobby, I broke down the system and started from scratch. I went all out and bought a spectrapure 5 stage RO/DI unit, an AquaC EV 120 skimmer, 65 pounds of fiji and tonga live rock and added the 4" live sandbed by natures ocean to the main display. (NOTE: in this hobby, you can not rely on cheap equipment, dont make the same mistakes I made by purchasing cheaper equipment or you will be sorry). I recall clearly the joy I felt knowing that the tank cycled in 8 days and that I did not do a water change for a year with no problems in this system after that. It is important to know that at this time, I was more advaced in knowing what the chemistry is in natural sea water and that one must know this for the propper adjustments to the water in your tank. Aside from testing my water for the usual (amonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, copper, silica and phosphate) I would test my water for calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, iodine and strotium. I would use B-Ionic calcium and alkalinity buffer to buffer the system when needed and would also use iether boyd's or Kent marine products to replace some of the major and minor elements needed for proper coral growth and keeping. Within a few months, I got to know my system well and knew what was needed and when it was needed without testing all the time. My corals and fish were colorfull as ever and I fed heavily. Fishes were fed 2-3 times a day and corals were fed once every 3 days.

Think of it this way. What's the real purpose of water changes? To replinesh major and minor elements?, to remove fish and coral waste? or is it to remove phosphates and silica as well as nitrates?. The answer is all of the above. The good thing about saltwater keeping is that it is a full blown eco system and everything eats everything else. So, with that said, with a properly set up marine system including exellent RO/DI water for top off, a powerfull skimmer, deep live sand bed, live rock, great clean up crew and bi-weekly changes of activated carbon as well as the adittion of chemi pure elite (very important), polution in your tank will have a very short life span. All I really do to my most recent 90 gallon system is blow the rocks biweekly with a power head, scrub algae on the glass, wait about an hour for it to clear up and collect in the sump (sump has no bio balls), then I use a battery operated gravel vac that contains a filter sock to trap ditritus and re-releases the water back into the sump as it is being syphoned, change the carbon and viola! water is as new as ever. Aside from this, if my minor and major elements are depleted, I use the products indicated above to replinish these elements as needed. As long as you test your water (I use salifert test kits) and add the correct doses, you wont have a problem.

[newyorkstyles]

Oh, and to answer your question about my 90, It was set up on March 5th of this year. It is a new tank but one that cycled in 8 days where amonia, nitrites and nitrates were undetectable on the 9th day.. I stocked up on the clean up crew on the 13th day and in 1 more weeks time I added the corals and fish. Those pics were taken 30 days after the initial set up. Livestock is still being added slowly. More to come soon.

[Los]

Thanks, NewYorkStyles. I agree that "very few water changes a year" is much better said than "no water changes". I'd go further and suggest that you might have even better luck doing regular water changes if you want your corals to thrive, but I have seen one tank of the month example (sorry, can't find the link) from a guy who hadn't done a water change in a year either - so it is possible. Congrats on your new tank and I hope it works for you. One of the great things about this site is people can share their experiences and there are a lot of people willing to experiment with different styles. Who knows, doing few or no water changes may become mainstream.

For the benefit of HappyClam and others, I'd recommend reading more before taking the above advice on water changes. I'd venture to guess that 90%+ of the experts on this site would recommend - no insist - on regular water changes as being a critical component to maintaining a healthy reef tank. Don't take my advice; I'm a relative beginner myself. Just read or ask around a bit. Best of luck!
Los