NOW What!?

[64Ivy]

Okay, give it to me straight. AEFW damage or something else?


http://www.moyesreef.com/uploads/Damaged-Acro-1.jpg

http://www.moyesreef.com/uploads/Damaged-Acro-2.jpg

http://www.moyesreef.com/uploads/Damaged-Acro-3.jpg

[Mchava]

no aefw here but might have some thing to do with water quality or even a pathogen. in the first picture it lookes like brown slime on the acro. Have you checked your water maybe an alk swing

[64Ivy]

I didn't think it was flatworms either but parameters are fairly stable. For instance Alk only fluctuates between 9.3-10.2 dkh (Salifert & Elos), CA 400ppm , Salinity 1.026, Mg: 1200, PO4 0.02 (Hanna), Temp 77.9-79.2, ORP 408 (Red Sea. Controller turns off ozone at 350.) I have not tested Nitrates in awhile. Will do that tomorrow.

There are plenty of highly metabolic fish in the tank such as Anthias, Tangs, and Triggers so they can't be starving from a lack of nutrients. But yet, not 7 hours after snapping the third shot above:


http://www.moyesreef.com/uploads/Damaged-Acro-3.jpg

...I come home to this:

http://www.moyesreef.com/uploads/Damaged-Acro-3a.jpg

Excuse the color inaccuracies, the white parts are spot on though. Anyhow, I removed the piece, dunked it into fresh water and blew all over it with a turkey baster. No flatworms, no eggs. Any other possibilities I could be overlooking?

[trueblackpercula]

Look I just had this happen to me and it was my salanity. It was reading 1.024 but when i took water to my freinds house it was 1.032. i was also having major problems with My home made randys two part that stuff really stinks. I did a 50 % water change and lowered the salanity to 1.024 and went back to Bionic and Bang corals have full PE and the flesh has started to grow back.

good luck
Michael

[snorvich]

What are you reading salinity with? Hopefully a calibrated refractometer.

[trueblackpercula]

Naaaaaaaaa i am to cheap:) old fASHIONED hydrometer. i think its time i spend the cash and get a new one:)

Michael

[fishdoc11]

Looks like RTN:(
That flaking/peeling off edge to the white spot is pretty indicative.
It can be caused by any type of stress. Are those new pieces?

[trueblackpercula]

it looks likethe same peice just 2 pictures

[NewbieForever]

In the first post theres three different acros,

All three look to be RTNing but the second also looks to have some damage to the tissue at the base where it was encrusted over the plug. That is usually IME from an ALK swing.

FWIW I know you know your stuff Ivy but I just did a large WC on my fairly new SPS tank and have some "alk burn" on the base of one of my acros like yours in pic 2 of the 1st post. This happened with my alk swinging from 11 dkh to 9.5 dkh.

I also lost a frag recently to RTN as after I got it I was so paranoid over AEFW I bathed it in TMPCC too long and although it didnt RTN immediatly after I got it, several days later it did suddenly. Seems it was stressed when I got it, and then I put it through more stress with the dips, and then it just broke down till it RTN'd.

How were the pieces before the tissue loss started, were they showing good polyp ext. at day or night?

[nismo driver]

how long were these pieces browned out before this started happening?

[NanoReefWanabe]

my birdnest did the exact same thing last night...i went from a 6x6x6" colony to 2 viable 2" frags...in one day...:(

definately looks like rtn...and i dont know what was the culprit...so i did a 25% WC and changed out PO4 media..

[OnlyCrimson]

How long ago were they added? How old is the system? What have you done differently in the last few weeks/months?

[64Ivy]

Most of these frags were added between 4-12 weeks ago. They tend to brown out fairly quickly but, oddly, all purple frags such as torts and such, seem to retain their color. There does not appear to be any real growth or encrustation on any so some form of shock is certainly evident. And not all frags are affected with the problem, but I'd say of the 15 or so, perhaps 5-7 are, though not to extent of the one in the last shot. My LPS are doing fine. For example, my all Cyphesrea colonies grow wonderfully. Echinos, Acans, Blastos,...all good. I was doing a nice, slow light acclimation with them just reaching their maximum early last week. Will do a par reading today.

I will also check my alkalinity again. I use both Salifert and Elos kits and they seem to be in agreement with results in the 9.3-10.2 range. This has been steady for several months. I employ both a calcium reactor and kalk doser, btw.

The system suffered a major crash about 10 months ago after which I changed approx 75% of the LR (after letting it cycle, of course). Before this, it ran for nearly 10 years. I never completely shut it down however as the fish were unaffected but spent several months doing water changes to make sure the pathogen was gone (perhaps it's not :( ).

I appreciate all of the questions so keep them coming. Maybe they'll trigger something I hadn't thought of. But are we agreed this does NOT appear to be flatworm damage? That would really put my mind at ease as I'm not sure I'm ready for another major issue so soon after the crash.

[fishdoc11]

That doesn't look like the couple of ways I've seen AEFW's do damage........maybe #2 but the only way to tell would be if you found them on the coral.
It's also fairly common for Acros to just never "settle in" and to give up a few weeks later if they have really been stressed. Although that usually happens sooner than later I've seen it happen after several months with wild colonies. You probably already know that though:)
Chris

[george albert]

looks like rtn

[JB NY]

looks like RTN Michael, I'm not sure what is the cause. Your pretty on top of your parameters normally, so the only other things I can think of are lighting and flow. Did you ever see the polyps out on those frags since you got them?

[64Ivy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12424247#post12424247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
looks like RTN Michael, I'm not sure what is the cause. Your pretty on top of your parameters normally, so the only other things I can think of are lighting and flow. Did you ever see the polyps out on those frags since you got them?

On some, especially at night, but not all. The last colony pictured never showed any PE and not only was it placed in an area of particularly strong and random flow but was also at the highest point in the tank! Oh, and it was one of the older pieces at about three months!

Again, not all the frags are showing signs of rtn. Some are even retaining their color, esp. purples and blues, but none have shown any evidence of growth yet.

Finally, alkalinity once again tested in the high nines (Salifert) and ten (Elos).

[fishdoc11]

Did you ever test the tank for stray voltage?

[64Ivy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12424987#post12424987 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
Did you ever test the tank for stray voltage?

No, I haven't. But I will. Thanks.

[Kip]

i hope you get the problem nailed down and can find a corrective course of action

i went thru this all of 2007 until whatever it was (still dont know) just ran its course... i lost a TON of stuff... there were times i wished i would find AEFWs so that i'd know definitively what the problem was

i really hope you dont end up chasing your tail for months on end the way i did

best of luck to you

[marino420td]

I going through this same issue with all of my acropora's right now. All params check out ok, all other tank inhabitants and corals are thriving but I'm losing my acros.

I decided to just let everything run its course and the damage seems to have slowed down. I actually see some acros growing tissue back over some of the damaged areas.

I still don't know the cause but I'm afraid to add anything to the tank. I'll just ride it out.

Good luck. Your tank is still amazing.

[Travis]

I would think it is safe to assume that is not AEFW damage. Definitely some sort of tissue necrosis. IME, tissue necrosis comes from fluctuation water parameters (especially alk swings), low light/flow, and immature tanks. How long has it been since you added new live rock to this tank? Have you tried running any UV or ozone to help clear the water of possible pathogens?

[64Ivy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12426457#post12426457 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis
I would think it is safe to assume that is not AEFW damage. Definitely some sort of tissue necrosis. IME, tissue necrosis comes from fluctuation water parameters (especially alk swings), low light/flow, and immature tanks. How long has it been since you added new live rock to this tank? Have you tried running any UV or ozone to help clear the water of possible pathogens?

I added the new LR last fall. I am running both UV and ozone although my ORP tends to run above the controller's 350 setting so it doesn't run much.

[Travis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12426507#post12426507 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 64Ivy
I added the new LR last fall. I am running both UV and ozone although my ORP tends to run above the controller's 350 setting so it doesn't run much.

Well, dang, that pretty much eliminates all of my suggestions. No idea what could be going on there. But at least you can sleep soundly not having to worry about AEFW's.:)

[-=DieselDave=-]

Did you check your nitrates yet just my guess but I bet they are very high.

[64Ivy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12434330#post12434330 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by -=DieselDave=-
Did you check your nitrates yet just my guess but I bet they are very high.

Actually, they aren't too bad: According to Elos, they're running right between 5-10 mg/l. And I even plan to bring that down shortly as I've just finish cycling in my denitrator after having it offline for a few months.

Anyhow, after having my mind put at ease about the flatworms, I'm beginning to think that my tank is still going through that weird 'not quite ready for prime time' period and I'm just going to have to wait a while longer before adding any more SPS. I'll still, of course, tend to the frags I've got and the second I begin to see any growth and improvement, I'll jump to finish restocking but should things remain in limbo here, I just might wait until summer vacation is over and try to pick things up in the fall.

Still haven't checked for stray voltage yet however as I don't yet have the proper equipment (or a small cut on my finger) for testing.

[64Ivy]

Bought a voltmeter. No stray current detected.

[Philwd]

I've seen this from very high alk; >12. One thing I've not seen suggested is look for dead sponge. I've seen a couple tanks with RTN from a sponge that died deep in the rocks. Won't show up on any tests.

[NanoReefWanabe]

corals browning would lead me to think...high PO4, or old lights...

[Philwd]

Corals will brown out with stress. Think of how corals look after shipping.

[imaqt4utoo]

64Ivy, are you still loosing corals or are they doing ok? Did you frag any of the ones losing tissue? I'm going through the same thing in my tank, but I can't put my finger on it either. Prior to all of this happening I had good PE and all corals looked good.

[64Ivy]

Of the 20 or so 'SPS' frags remaining, the vast majority are still dormant. One or two continue to suffer vv('very, very')stn but others, mainly the torts, are actually holding their color. The rest are mostly brown with little to no PE except for two Millis which will display their polyps, albeit weakly. All of the fish and 'LPS' are doing wonderfully with a Cyphastrea frag rapidly spreading across the tank's bare bottom! Except for routine maintenance, I've decided to leave things alone until the fall. Then, if I see some positive signs, I'll try restocking more acros.

[imaqt4utoo]

Thanks for the info! Yeah, my torts are all fine as well as my digis, monti caps, milles. It looks like it's affecting the stags. I fragged what I could and just left the rest to ride out.
I too don't know what happened the only thing is that one coral could have been stressed and sent a chain reaction to the rest of the group. One day is all it took to loose tons of $$$$.
I'm considering reverting back to LPS and softies as they were 100% easier to deal with.

[NaH2Ofreak]

Do you run any phosphate remover? If so, anything different about it? Just curious. Sometimes it can cause these RTN issues.

Dennis

[imaqt4utoo]

GFO, but at an extremely low dosage and that has been running for quite awhile.

[jmaneyapanda]

Any changes to how you've dosed the ozone? What type of salt do you use (or more specifically, is it high in Bromine)? I have heard (yeah, I know, heresay), that ozone can create some bromic acid issues.

[imaqt4utoo]

Well I moved all my corals to another tank that I had running. The RTN/STN has subsided. I did leave 1-2 corals in the old tank and they have also stopped RTN to a certain degree albiet slowly.
I don't run ozone, but am curious as to the bromic acid issue.

[64Ivy]

Just thought I'd mention this: It has now been approximately 1 year and one month since my crash and let's say, about 6 months since my 'rebuild'. Since then and as previously stated, all of the acro frags I introduced went completely dormant, some browned out, some died, but every one of them just sat there doing nothing.

Well, I'm happy and completely befuddled to report that for the first time, I'm noticing color, PE, and possibly even the beginnings of encrustation on a several of the pieces. It's as if something triggered them to respond and all at once! I have changed absolutely nothing in terms of maintenance, nor have I added anything in terms of supplements, additives, or bioload. My water parameters are exactly the same as they were last April.

I heard about a research paper looking into the cause of crashes being due quite awhile ago, maybe from a study being done in Japan if memory serves. If so, I'd sure like to read it...heck, I'd like to read though ANYTHING in this regard. But in the meantime, can anyone take a guess as to what finally may be happening.

[Zoom]

what finally may be happening.
Well looks like the New old tank start to mature .:D
I when through the same thing after my tank crashed last year .
I re started the tank just like you and to save my life i was not been able to keep sps for about six + months but all the LPS and fish was doing good .
Well i can say now everything is almost back to normal.
I did slow down alat just like you on sps and it just kick back in on it's own.
Any pictures of the new lay out?
Enjoy.

[ooja3k]

It might be the PO4 media...

I ran a reactor with like 1/4 recommended dosage and one of my frags started to stn/rtn on me... I fragged it, took the media offline, and will wait things out... Necrosis seems to have stopped though.

Just a thought...

[tacocat]

Check for metal contamination from magnets. pumps, seals on your Sequence pumps, etc.

[InsaneClownFish]

STN sometimes has no logical explanation. I would also look into modifying your flow..alternating directions..etc. SPS can become very stressed...brown out...STN from too direct or inadequate flow.