sick tang: crypto and seizers?

[seafansar]

I'm treating my fish for crypto right now in a QT tank. I'm using Cupramine, but it's still not at full strength yet. My convict tang has been doing great, eating and staying fat, just sometimes covered in ich spots. But today he was acting weird. He would dart around the tank running into the sides and the top of the water and then lay stiff on the bottom with all his fins flared out. I picked him up thinking he was dead, but he was still breathing, just really stiff. I kept him upright for a few minutes and then he tried to swim (not very well) and a few minutes later looked fine. About a half hour later while I was feeding the fish, he did it again (but not as bad as the first time). Is he having seizers?

I've checked the copper level and it's not even to the recommended concentration yet. I was thinking he might be having a hard time breathing from the ich. Would a freshwater dip help? The other fish in the tank seem fine, other than being covered in ich.

[kmf507]

I was confused by your post. Do you have all your fish in QT or just your tang?

I have freshwater dipped one fish, it wasn't a pleasant experience watching a $60 saltwater fish sink to the bottom of freshwater, but it helped.

[seafansar]

Sorry. All the fish are in the same QT tank.

Haha...I know that feeling. I've dipped a few other fish, but it didn't seem like it did much for them. But I'll try dipping this guy. I just hate the way he and the other fish freak out when a net hits the water.

[stuccodude]

its so less stressfull to the fish to just soak there food in garlic to build there immunities and fight off the parasite, just my own experince, good luck

[seafansar]

I tried that and a UV sterilizer, but after 4 fish died and the ich was not getting any better, just worse, I tore down the tank and put all the fish in QT. I must say the rock work looks a lot better. Now my 125 is a pretty invert only tank for a few months. The shrimp love it!

So far I haven't seen the tang have any more seizers. I just really hope he doesn't die. I love that little guy.

[Bruno3047]

Forget the freshwater dip. It'll only weaken the fish and do nothing against the Ich.

Keep the copper level where it is for now, even if its not at a therapeutic level. Tangs don't do well in copper and what you're seeing might be a reaction to the increasing copper levels.

Let him get used to the raised copper levels, then try increasing it slowly to a therapeutic level.

Keep him eating and don't forget to clean the tank of any uneaten food.

Good luck!

[seafansar]

Thanks. I heard some people had success with Cupramine and sensitive fish since it's not as toxic as other forms of copper. I was trying hypo-salinity. I don't know if I didn't have it low enough or what, but it didn't seem to be doing anything. After I lost more fish, I decided to use copper. Ich really sucks!!!!!

[demonsp]

You would see the ich on them, do you ?
What size tank is this?
How long have you had this fish?

[Bruno3047]

"Ich really sucks!!!!!"

No doubt. Sounds like you're on the right track, though.

Keep testing your parameters while you're treating, particularly ammonia and nitrite levels in addition to your copper levels.

Copper will destabilize your biological filtration somewhat, so you need to stay on top of your nitrogen compounds.

If you see ammonia levels increasing at all, reduce your feeding to a bare minimum (1/4 of the normal amount). If this happens, you must then keep a close eye on nitrite levels, since these follow ammonia in the nitrification process. Contrary to what some folks might think, nitrite is much more lethal than ammonia, even in much lower concentrations.

Once you see both ammonia and nitrite at 0, you can then start increasing the food portions slowly to the normal amount.

Curing fish of Ich is not an easy thing to do, but it can be done, if you do it right.

Good luck.

[seafansar]

I have one of those AmmoniaAlert badges in there to keep track of ammonia. I also do water changes and add Prime (removes ammonia and detoxifies nitrite and nitrate) to the new water. There's no biological filtration in the tank anyway (new filters and no sand or rock).

The QT tank is a 20 gallon. I've had the convict tang for about 4 months. It was ich free until I added it and the other fish to my new 125 gallon tank. I think there was ich in the sand/water/rocks that were in the tank already. I used everything that came with the tank, because it was up and running when I got it.

And I can definitely see the ich on the fish!

Now one of my clowns is not looking well. Great!

[demonsp]

GL.

[Robgixxer]

damn that sucks... sorry to here. i used to battle with ich alot in my 55g. seems like almost all my fish that i brought home would get it. But now on my 150 when i started it up before i got the regular tank goiong i just ran a closed loop recirc on my sump/fuge through a uv sterilizer. it is 30 gal. total between skimmer space, fuge, and sump. I had 40 lbs. of rubble that i put in the fuge to get it starting to build bacteria on it. ran the uv sterilzer from day one on that thing. as i was buying and still building the equiptment for the rest of the system. Now i must say that i am 100% ich free and everything i have put in the tank so far just thrives like they are superman creatures. my best work yet and is working quite well. good luck with your situation.

[Robgixxer]

see, here is how i set it up. and is still running the same way on it's own closed loop.

<a href="http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/?action=view&current=150FilterSetup005.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/150FilterSetup005.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/?action=view&current=150FilterSetup002.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/150FilterSetup002.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/?action=view&current=150FilterSetup003.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/150FilterSetup003.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[tmz]

Leaving the fish without treatment and feeding garlic soaked food because it is perceived as less stressful will not cure ich . If you can't get the fish out then you may have to hope and cope. Some fish survive the parasite with or without garlic(which has no proven therapuetic value for marine fish) but the ich survives as well lurking.
Moving the fish and treating with copper or hyposalinity or the transfer method is much less stressfull than continued exposure to an infectious parasite which will tears through the fish's flesh , clogs and damages the gills, weakens the fish and leaves it open to other infections.

Copper at the appropriate dose will not hurt tangs in my experience. There is no reliable information to the contrary. Get to the therapuetic level quickly to prevent a secondary infection. The erratic swimming could be an effort to help the fish breathe through clogged or damaged gills.

A freshwater dip may kill some parasites on the skin but won't help much. If you think there may be other infections in play as is often the case in an extensive infestation, a formalin bath for 40 to 50 minutes in a container full of tank water can be very helpful and doesn't stress the fish if properly dosed.The formalin will counter any thing on the fish's skin.

If you are worried about copper on any fish and don't like hyposalinity either for a specific specimen ,you can use the tank transfer method. Move the fish from tank to tank every 3days for a total of 4 moves,thouroughly cleaning the tank it leaves before reusing. This leaves the parasites behind and allows them to clear out of the fish without any chance of reinfestation.

You also have to worry about ich lingering in your dispaly tank. Most advocate 6 weeks without fish, although some cysts may remain vialble for as long as 72 days.

[tmz]

I use several uv sterlilizers. They will not rid your system of ich in a ricurculating system even if they are very large. They may reduce some numbers temporarily and may effect the virulence of potential secondary infections like amyloodinium(velvet). Strelilizers are useful for a number of things but they only effect what passes through them ;not the parasites in or on the fish or the cysts in or on the substarate. The ich parasite(cryptocaryon irritans) is a relatively large protozoan much larger than the bacteria and agale sterlilizers usually effect. There just isn't enough radiation in a typicaly sized sterilizer to kill larger parasites.

[seafansar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12479253#post12479253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Leaving the fish without treatment and feeding garlic soaked food because it is perceived as less stressful will not cure ich . If you can't get the fish out then you may have to hope and cope. Some fish survive the parasite with or without garlic(which has no proven therapuetic value for marine fish) but the ich survives as well lurking.
Moving the fish and treating with copper or hyposalinity or the transfer method is much less stressfull than continued exposure to an infectious parasite which will tears through the fish's flesh , clogs and damages the gills, weakens the fish and leaves it open to other infections.

Copper at the appropriate dose will not hurt tangs in my experience. There is no reliable information to the contrary. Get to the therapuetic level quickly to prevent a secondary infection. The erratic swimming could be an effort to help the fish breathe through clogged or damaged gills.

A freshwater dip may kill some parasites on the skin but won't help much. If you think there may be other infections in play as is often the case in an extensive infestation, a formalin bath for 40 to 50 minutes in a container full of tank water can be very helpful and doesn't stress the fish if properly dosed.The formalin will counter any thing on the fish's skin.

If you are worried about copper on any fish and don't like hyposalinity either for a specific specimen ,you can use the tank transfer method. Move the fish from tank to tank every 3days for a total of 4 moves,thouroughly cleaning the tank it leaves before reusing. This leaves the parasites behind and allows them to clear out of the fish without any chance of reinfestation.

You also have to worry about ich lingering in your dispaly tank. Most advocate 6 weeks without fish, although some cysts may remain vialble for as long as 72 days.

If my fish are still alive tomorrow, I'll get some formalin. I was already considering this, but wasn't sure if it was safe to use at the same time as copper. Should I use the water with copper in it for the dip or water from my fishless and copper-free tank?

[demonsp]

Do you see ich?
What size tank and is this the main tank?
Whats used for water flow?

[seafansar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12479486#post12479486 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by demonsp
Do you see ich?
What size tank and is this the main tank?
Whats used for water flow?

Huh? I already answered this. Yes I see the ich. The fish are in a 20 gallon QT tank. I'm using two tiny underwater filters for flow and an air stone.

[demonsp]

Fish can live in many poor conditions but low O2 isnt one of them.SW fish receive proper O2 exchange through water flow and surface exchange,the stone may help but little without water surface movement. Low O2 means stress and unability to recover.

[seafansar]

Oh. Well they've been in this tank for a little over 2 weeks and have been acting fine (other than looking bad from the ich), so I don't think that's the problem. There's pretty good water movement.

[demonsp]

If its a QT tank and its been running without fish in it then it had un used O2 then after the new stocked used it up then un explained stress will acure. Though this maynot be the only problem its easy to try with an addition of a powerhead.

[seafansar]

Ok I'll try that. I actually ran into the room and added another air stone after I read what you said. lol.

[demonsp]

You want 20 times turn over.Atleast 400 GPH powerhead.

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12479587#post12479587 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by demonsp
You want 20 times turn over.Atleast 400 GPH powerhead. :) Air exchange is important but this is not a question of flow. The fish have ich and need treatment.
I do not use formalin and copper together. I use water from the tank without copper in a 2 gallon buckett with a small powerhead for airation and current. The fish stays in there for 50minutes. I observe periodically thoroughout this treatment for any sign of stress. I have treated many fish prophylacticly as well without ever seeing any ill effect. I don't know if you can mix copper and formalin safely.

[seafansar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12480919#post12480919 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
:) Air exchange is important but this is not a question of flow. The fish have ich and need treatment.
I do not use formalin and copper together. I use water from the tank without copper in a 2 gallon buckett with a small powerhead for airation and current. The fish stays in there for 50minutes. I observe periodically thoroughout this treatment for any sign of stress. I have treated many fish prophylacticly as well without ever seeing any ill effect. I don't know if you can mix copper and formalin safely.

Thanks for the clarification on the formalin treatment.

I added two more air stones and aimed one of the pumps toward the surface of the water. The fish seem to be doing better. Hopefully it was just a lack of oxygen that can easily be fixed rather than something else. I have another pump I'm going to add to the tank. Thanks Lance!

[demonsp]

He said they where in the QT tank 2 weeks then started acting wierd and with no water movement im guessing the O2 level dropped below an acceptable amount. This would be a resonable reason and an easy one to fix or atleast eliminate.

Fish like tangs can come with ick but with proper conditionss may never show any sign but if it gets stressed then outbreak.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12480919#post12480919 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
:) Air exchange is important but this is not a question of flow. The fish have ich and need treatment.
I do not use formalin and copper together. I use water from the tank without copper in a 2 gallon buckett with a small powerhead for airation and current. The fish stays in there for 50minutes. I observe periodically thoroughout this treatment for any sign of stress. I have treated many fish prophylacticly as well without ever seeing any ill effect. I don't know if you can mix copper and formalin safely.

[tmz]

Stress does not cause ich. If it was there it would come out sooner or later. As noted air exchange is important but a lack of flow won't cause ich or vice versa.

[demonsp]

Im not saying this caused ick. Im just saying with no flow in that tank then after 2 weeks this could cause stress in fish.The fact that ick may always be present was a side note.
A quote from here. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen, and overcrowding are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of stress,

http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html

[demonsp]

Please stop implying im guessing all the time. Rather , help me avoid bad sources.MMMM K.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12486801#post12486801 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Stress does not cause ich. If it was there it would come out sooner or later. As noted air exchange is important but a lack of flow won't cause ich or vice versa.

[demonsp]

Not so quick to reply now?

[tmz]

I have read the Steven Pro article several times. It is an excellent piece of work.
Of course the stressors noted including low oxygen will weaken a fish and make it more susceptible to infestation if the theronts(free swimming stage) are in the tank. How exactly do you think they would they get into a qt tank without a fish brining them in as trophonts(the stage embbeded in the fish)?If they are embedded in the fish they will come out eventually wether or not the fish is stressed.
Limiting the stressors will help prevent reinfestation in a tank with active parasites but since copper or hyposalinity will kill the theronts(free swimmers) the fish will not get ich even in the poorest of conditions although if conditions are bad enough they may die from something else.
So while air exchange is important and oxygen depletion may have contributed to the fish's behavior a discussion about the size of powerheads is not really on point when the original question concerned copper dosing.

[demonsp]

Proper QT enviroment will desrease stess aiding in the fishes recovery. And any additional information learned by you or any viewer is what RC is all about,No?We are all here for info and to help other succed.