Return Pump, how much it too much?

[Elevate]

I am building a 30 gallon cube with a planned 10 gallon sump/fuge. I may have opportunity to get a Eheim 1260, 900 GPH, for a decent price. Is this too much flow? I was planning on something along the lines of a Mag 5 but this might end up being cheaper. If it is too much, can I intentionally put some restrictive plumbing on it?

[McCrary]

The Eheim 1262 is around 900gph, is this what you are talking about? Or is it the 1260 at around 650gph? Either way, both are going to be way too much for a 30 with a 10 gallon sump. I got a Eheim 1250 for my 30 with 10 gallon sump and I am planning on dialing that back quite a bit. Remember that the return pump shouldn't be used for flow, it should be used to simply return water that has been through the skimmer, filter sock, fuge or whatever. Use powerheads and such for flow. I would shoot for something at around 200gph, even that may be a little much. But it is better to error on the side of too much and be able to dial it back than too little and have to buy a new pump.

[Longchamp]

The current trend is to have a sump flow of 3-5x tank volume. It helps keep microbubbles out of the display.

[xJake]

I'd get the biggest pump you can afford (one less upgrade later) and then simply use a tee and ball valve to bleed off some of the flow and have it empty right back into the sump.

[Elevate]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12526204#post12526204 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xJake
I'd get the biggest pump you can afford (one less upgrade later) and then simply use a tee and ball valve to bleed off some of the flow and have it empty right back into the sump.

This idea is appealing to me. Would this create too much turbulence in the return section of the sump?

[ManotheSea]

What size is your drain from tank to sump? Get a return pump slightly more than your drain will flow. You can use a regular ball valve on the output side of the pump to turn down the flow untill you match the drain line. No "T" valve needed unless you want one. I dont think turbulance in the sump will be bad for anything.

A 1" drain flows 600 gph, 2-1" drains flow 1200 gph. a 2" drain flows about 2400 gph. Just match up a pump that pushes a little more and use a ball valve to regulate it.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12526204#post12526204 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xJake
I'd get the biggest pump you can afford (one less upgrade later) and then simply use a tee and ball valve to bleed off some of the flow and have it empty right back into the sump.

Why? So you can waste electricity? You'll more than pay for the update in electricity.

[FISH WHISPERER]

Depending on the setup, you can use a flexible "snake" with nozzled links. By default they cut back the water flow, but with one running across the backside top of the tank you'll need nothing else inside for water movement. I agree with Rich about "wasting" electricity, which is why I think it's awesome to run an entire system of just one strong pump, a heater and the lights. ;)

I'd build in a ball valve and a tee during the construction of it all, just in case the links themselves don't restrict the water enough. Keeping a little excess turning in the sump if you have to does no harm.

[AZDesertRat]

Returning water back to the sump through a tee and valve is a very poor option. You are wasting power that is not needed. The better option is buy a pump slightly larger than you think you will need and install a valve on the discharge or return side to adjust flows.
Centrifugal pumps only draw the power necessary to do the work required of them(plus a little for inefficiencies). If you are returning flow to the sump you are pumping more water thus more work and higher power consumption along with more heat gain. By valving the discharge you increase the head, reduce the flow and the work required thus lowering the power consumption and heat produced.

[FISH WHISPERER]

AZ - long time no speakie! :) Howya. You know, I did not know they only draw the power needed. That being the case, no electricity would be wasted using that nice pump to as a solo pump for the system. I had to tee off my return in the big 'un, because I ran the nozzled links down each back side. With 1800 GPH I was still left wanting for "more" when it reached the ends of the nozzles, but it all worked out fine - there was indeed awesome circulation. Even with a ball valve on the output, he might be running it wide open as it is. Anyway... Grandkids, huh? LMAO!!!! I can only make fun of ya for a bit longer... gulp... any day now!

[Playa-1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12526204#post12526204 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xJake
I'd get the biggest pump you can afford (one less upgrade later) and then simply use a tee and ball valve to bleed off some of the flow and have it empty right back into the sump.

Energy consumption should be takin into consideration. 150 watts at 24/7 vs 40 watts can really add up after a while. I say oversize the pump a little and dial it back with a ball valve on the return line. Be sure to take into consideration headloss when your figuring out what size pump to get.

[BrianD]

Monty, it is darn nice to see you on the board :thumbsup:

I hope all is well.

[J.russell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12541772#post12541772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ManotheSea


A 1" drain flows 600 gph, 2-1" drains flow 1200 gph. a 2" drain flows about 2400 gph. Just match up a pump that pushes a little more and use a ball valve to regulate it.

Is this on all tanks?

If so I think I might have made a boo bo.

I have (2) 1 1/2" drains and only have a ViaAqua 3300 for a return. That pump only does like 700gph at 6' head.

[AZDesertRat]

J. russel, as long as you do not exceed the capacity of your overflow you are good. Its when your pump is larger than the overflow that you encounter problems. The level of the display will balance itself out based on your return rate.

[J.russell]

Ok thats what I thought. Just making sure.

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12526204#post12526204 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xJake
I'd get the biggest pump you can afford (one less upgrade later) and then simply use a tee and ball valve to bleed off some of the flow and have it empty right back into the sump.

This may sound good, but...

1. bigger pumps cost more
2. bigger pumps generally are louder.
3. turning down flow of pump with a valve makes most pumps louder.
4. waste electricity (?)

Also high flow sump are louder ( just the extra water movement), and the plumbing. high flow sumps tend to have micro bubble issues. Like mentioned above get your tank water movement from in tank powerheads/pumps... have your sump flow 100- (200 gph max) for your 30 gallon tank.

[FISH WHISPERER]

Gotta disagree, Roland... Having done so many different setups (as I'm sure we all have), far and away the best setup I ever did was the in-sump return pump. It has more to do with powerheads falling in the display - and it certainly had nothing to do with critters getting chomped by impellors (things that actually concerned more than a few people). I actually wanted to design the most "maintenence free" system, for one. I also wanted something aesthetically pleasing (read, nothing mechanical hanging in the display).

Anyway, I found with a nice Mag, working with on massive corner overflow built in to the back (custom corner tank), using the snakes I described above, I got excellent water turn, circulation and certainly never had any bubble issues. There's a lot you can do to quiet down loud sumps, so that was never an issue. You can have it plop down into the sump, plane it out, or run it to the very bottom. Assuming you are not using a salad bowl for a sump you can eliminate the water noise because you'll have the depth to do so. The noise comes from the overflow, if you're using one.

I had no other power consumption other than a heater and lights. And running massive lights, powerheads dim in comparison anyway. I take that back - I had probes until one broke - then I yanked the whole unit. You've got me on point 2: Bigger pumps are louder. But the big Mag was not a problem - it was sitting on a rubber mat and with the sump closed there was never even a sound issue.

Anyway, I guess any contention I have is that I believe it's optimal to get your water using a single pump return system. I didn't worry about electricity. I figured I had to be SAVING, if anything, since I just had the one pump vs. a multitude in the large display. I had nozzles pointing up breaking the surface, some going down the back of the tank - some out the front middle.

About the "micro bubble" issues. I did a "sump in a sump" sort of. I used pool-filter hosing (not because I was being brilliant, just because it flexes nicely and had the wide diameter I wanted - and was cheap!) lol. I don't know if that helped cut down on bubbles, but I surely didn't have any. I also ran that into an old activated carbon jug in the sump. That kept the turbulence WAY down. I mean, it was turbulent as all heck in that cannister where the flow ran, but then it just flowed nicely up and over the sides, flooding into the sump. Just a thought - I don't know what part of that eliminated bubbles, but the only time I ever saw any was when I was a bonehead and let the sump run too low and she sucked air. :D

We all know every system is different, and not all the mechanics will work the same. But in every situation I would try to make one return pump do the job with a corner overflow. As long as your sump is large enough to handle the overflow if the pump goes off, you have no risk of flooding. That should be a no-brainer though. I lost power plenty of times and knew where to keep my levels.

One of the biggest factors someone else addressed up there that I "thought" I had considered was indeed that return head pressure. I feel like I could have shot water across the room until I started making it climb, and then I did tee it off so I could get two snakes of nozzled links along each backside of the tank. By the time all this drastically simple "engineering" reached the last nozzle on each snake it was hardly what I thought it would be. The biggest problem was the little snails that took a ride in my big 'ol waterpark and ended up not fitting through the small nozzles of the return snakes. Ugh.. That actually required me to get my hands wet. :D

Anyhue, just a contrasting opinion. ;)

(Insert shameless personal greeting plug here:)
Heya Brian! I don't want to hijack, so I'll shoot ya an email when I get a chance. Mine's montyfc@gmail.com if you beat me to it. I'm doing decently, and here's a quick "Itinerary" of my journey: CA to KS, back to CA, then to AL and now in OH. Eyes rolling, are they? Loved it in 'Bama - I was out there with Smitty (Mike) and family, and the next division football coach is trying to get me and my and Mr. Binks back there. This would be good if he were in COLLEGE and not just a little turd. He's good, too, though. A trained 'Bama football "seeker!" LOL I'll email ya, huh? I have to email Niko, too. Uh... Dare I do one of those "general all-about-me emails that I despise?" lol Anyway, enough of the hijack, but I think this chap has it right with plenty of suggestions that work. :)

Monty

[Roland Jacques]

Monty, With small tanks you have a point With one pump vs muti pumps. Still everything i said is true.

For one "strong" pump to = the current that can be made by some intank pumps the strong pump would have 3-10 xs more watt usage. You really cant compare a 23 watt Sureflow maxi pump pumps flowing 2400 gph. Compared to even a highly efficient Dart pump uses 5 times more power.

I don't like seeing equipment in my display tanks ether. So for some of my higher end tanks I've used enductors but ill tell you the the pressure pumps needed to drive them where anything but efficient.

[FISH WHISPERER]

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. I know I was undoubtedly paying a premium run a monster. But you're absolutely correct. In a much larger system there's no way I'd have anything short of a pool filter sized pump complete with the noise! :eek: This guy's talking about a 30g cube, so I'd go with my preferred "one in the sump" method. FWIW, I only had that on my main display. All other tanks had the usual stuff, and to be honest, having my trigger tank with no sump was actually worry free with the two HOBs. I guess, comparing all the power usage sucked up in my household, the pump becomes a miniscule worry. When comparing the major electric sucking sound from my lighting, the last thing I ever worried about was the pump. :D But I DID work "semi-green" with that, because I timed my lighting cycle to come on at dark, and with my nuclear facilities going on above the tank I needed no lights in the two adjoining rooms! :D :D

Anyway, Roland, you have my complete agreement about the pressure pumps need to produce to work from the sump - especially if you are using them to circulate via split-plumbing. Like I said earlier, I knew I was going to be in for some poor pressure so I made sure I went with a big enough pump. The noise never bothered me (not an issue at all, really) and I didn't notice my power bill shoot up. I think what is important is this guy's just rigging a 30G. It would be nice and easy to keep it clean, and I'd be using that 10g sump of his to store the goods.

Reading your four points, I don't disagree with the validity. I just dont see any factors that would outweigh my decision to rig a 30 with the one pump. I kill far more watts using terrible incandescents in lighting fixtures where the flourescents don't fit! :D (I'm talking in the house - that's where my biggest "frustration" problem is with the electricity.) lol.