Whats the quickest way to cure DIY rock

[Pattylucylaura]

As the title says wondering what the quickest way to cure DIY rock is will be using the portland sand salt mix if this makes any difference.

[jade76]

you can always keep it in the back of your toilet....you get constant water changes this way....no really, it works!

[Pattylucylaura]

Yeah I know that way have done it with smaller pieces but I am wanting to make some larger pieces.

[RParker]

I've heard of people sticking it in thier local river, lol not sure I would do that myself.

[Pattylucylaura]

I know I can just do it in a tub of water but I am wondering if there is any way to speed up the process

[jade76]

that river idea sounds interesting.

[KafudaFish]

I don't think you should use the river/creek. There are issues such as is this considered dumping?, how will the pH change downstream, and issues concerning water quality both from the salt leeching from your rock as well as anything binding to your rock.

[Rysam]

portland and salt will take a forever to leach. im at almost 3 mos with flow and 100* water and a PH over 9 with water changes every other day.
use perlite and sand instead of salt. or if you do use salt only use a small amount and dont add any until your almost ready to make your rocks. you dont want it mixed into your cement very well.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1286738&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

[NeveSSL]

Anyone put a powerhead in their toilet yet? :lol:

Hey! It may help. Perhaps? Koralia 1 may be good for it... weird noises when you flush, but its all good. Just be sure to tell guests. :D

Brandon

[alpine]

No there is no way to speed up the process.Many have tried and all have failed to find a way to speed up the curing process.If you find a way make sure to post up your results.

[Pattylucylaura]

I may just go with sand and portland since I have those 2 things laying around

[Rysam]

go to your local nursery/garden center and get a bag of perlite, its worth it in weight savings. dont get the miracle grow perlite, get the real stuff.

[Pattylucylaura]

What is this perlite stuff and what does it do?

[kcress]

This is a chemical thing. Everything chemical happens faster with elevated temperature. Every 10 degrees doubles the rate.

So if you are talking 70F and it takes a year.

80F => 1/2year
90F => 1/4year
100F => 1/8year
110F => 1/16year

???:dance: :beer: :confused:

[Rysam]

perlite is the little white balls in your potting soil. for about 5 bucks you can get a good sized bag. its basically inert puffed glass. not exactly, but close enough for our needs. it really reduces the weight of your rocks.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12553403#post12553403 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KafudaFish
I don't think you should use the river/creek. There are issues such as is this considered dumping?, how will the pH change downstream, and issues concerning water quality both from the salt leeching from your rock as well as anything binding to your rock.

Honestly? Dumping? A few pounds of DIY concrete rock in a river? What about the concrete piers used to hold the bridge up? The concrete boat landings, the concrete erosion control along the creek? The exposed limestone that the river or creek cut through? The limestone rip-rap that lines the banks? What about the salty runoff from the winter roads?

I suppose there is some knucklehead in some bureaucratic office in some useless department that would consider putting a lump of concrete in a creek "dumping". I am sure they have nothing better to do than to wring their hands about the environmental impact... Here in the real world, it is a lump of concrete that has no effect on anything other than the over educated, under informed bureaucrat:)

[Otto2]

Put it in the ocean.

[hyperfocal]

Has anyone tried bubbling CO2 in the curing water? It'd help drop the pH, perhaps neutralizing the alkali in the mix a bit faster...

[KB3MMX]

Or how about bubbling with with a heavy dose of ozone in hot water ??

[JayB1224]

BeanAnimal: I was thinking about the exact same things you stated above.
The ReefBalls they use to make artificial reefs out of are made ot of concrete. they give them a 28 day cure/dry time then ship them out to be dumped into the ocean where life takes hold within weeks. Granted its the ocean (lots O water) but still, life is on the rocks while they are leaching, so i dont think a few pounds is going to hurt the river or its inhabitants.
I personaly would toss them in a river or creek myself. cant get a much flow then that, and a perpetual water change.

[Pattylucylaura]

I think the concern with the river was stuff getting from the river to the rock then to the tank. I may have to look in to that perilite so do you just use sand that and some portland and let kure for a few weeks?

[KafudaFish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12559187#post12559187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Honestly? Dumping? A few pounds of DIY concrete rock in a river? What about the concrete piers used to hold the bridge up? The concrete boat landings, the concrete erosion control along the creek? The exposed limestone that the river or creek cut through? The limestone rip-rap that lines the banks? What about the salty runoff from the winter roads?

I suppose there is some knucklehead in some bureaucratic office in some useless department that would consider putting a lump of concrete in a creek "dumping". I am sure they have nothing better to do than to wring their hands about the environmental impact... Here in the real world, it is a lump of concrete that has no effect on anything other than the over educated, under informed bureaucrat:)

I agree that there is a difference between real world and theory. Isn't the concrete that is used already cured? If not then yes all of those leech chemicals and alter pH of the water. All you have to do is look at a concrete mixing plant on a river. It is on a much different scale than putting some rock in for an aquarium but it is still an issue. The OP stated that he was going to do a large amount of rock. How much is that 50#? 500#? Does not matter it is still dumping.

I also agree that there are far worse impacts to a stream such as salt runoff, urban development, and poor agricultural practices. It does not mean that what the OP wants to do is correct just because it is a "few pounds". If that is the case why not just let your septic tank empty directly into a river. I mean it is only 1 family's waste right? One oil change? No big deal.

If this was the case then anyone living near the coast could go out on a boat throw some rock out there and come back and harvest it later. If a wildlife officer searched their boat and found the rock I wonder what would happen?

I do find it ironic Bean that you are attacking someone whose job it is to protect the environment that you and I live in regardless if you feel that they are over educated and under informed. I have read countless threads in which you reply to a hostile person and ask them not to do so. Why are you doing it now? If you are playing devil's advocate then take my comments with a grain of salt please.

Basically why should the OP impact the area he lives in? If he is making DIY rocks to not impact a reef why not carry it over to where he lives?

[Pattylucylaura]

I was never considering putting it anywhere but in a tub in my backyard was just wondering if there was a mixture or anything to do to the water to speed up the leeching process.

[Rysam]

it takes 28 days for the cement to attain max strength then into a bucket of water for a couple months. it doesnt get any faster for quality rocks. i use dolomite sand, perlite and portland.

[Pattylucylaura]

So if I started a batch begining of june you think it would be ok to go by august or september?

[Rysam]

it will be good to go when the Ph falls to an acceptable level 8.8-8.2 is a good number to shoot for. if you dont use salt and do plenty of W/C's you should be close with those dates i would guess. the longer you let it air dry,the better. the ph will fall a few points naturally on its own. while letting the rocks air dry be sure to keep them moist so the rocks dont dry out completely. they will be stronger.

heres a few pics of mine...
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/norcalreefer/DSCN2964.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/norcalreefer/DSCN2966.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/norcalreefer/DSCN2941.jpg

[Pbrown3701]

In theory, using hot water should speed up the diffusion process. Practically speaking - don't know how much of a difference it would really make...

[JCTewks]

According to some....Thorite used instead of portland will make rocks/plugs that need no curing. I would still soak them until the PH was right....but it may never spike.

Last months thread of the month uses thorite for frag plugs and puts them in the tank as soon as they are dry...you can check it out here.... http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1215102&perpage=25&pagenumber=1 :D

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12560578#post12560578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KafudaFish
I agree that there is a difference between real world and theory. Isn't the concrete that is used already cured? If not then yes all of those leech chemicals and alter pH of the water. All you have to do is look at a concrete mixing plant on a river. It is on a much different scale than putting some rock in for an aquarium but it is still an issue. The OP stated that he was going to do a large amount of rock. How much is that 50#? 500#? Does not matter it is still dumping.

Again, that same creek has bridges, dams, concrete culverts, runoff from asphalt and concrete roads and structures and a million other sources.

To insist that placing 500 pounds of concrete in a stream or river to "cure" is "dumping" is, well, kind of silly. I actually can't believe you would make the argument, let alone defend it.

I honestly thought you were pointing out that somebody may (as silly as it may sound) see it that way.

The argument is akin to telling somebody that peeing in the woods is polluting the environment and that they should be fined for dumping raw sewage.

If that is the case why not just let your septic tank empty directly into a river. I mean it is only 1 family's waste right? One oil change? No big deal. Please, lets no go down that intellectually dishonest path. You can make similar comments about ANY topic, they are meaningless. Oil changes and septic systems? My goodness.

I do find it ironic Bean that you are attacking someone whose job it is to protect the environment that you and I live in regardless if you feel that they are over educated and under informed. Thanks, but I don't need or want that type of protection. It follows the same misguided (and maybe well intentioned) logic that allows somebody to tell me my clogged culvert in the drainage ditch, that flooded my front yard, must stay that way because the area has been deemed a "protected wet land".

I have read countless threads in which you reply to a hostile person and ask them not to do so. Why are you doing it now?I was not being hostile. I did not attack you. I gave my opinion on the subject and made the assertion that putting a few (hundred?) pounds of concrete in a river or stream is NOT "dumping" and/or environmentally irresponsible. I said that to assert otherwise is rather silly and very long stretch from the reality. I said that I am sure there are some people that would waste time and money trying to prosecute over something so meaningless. I used the word bureaucracy. I stand by that.

On the same token, if you honestly want to make the argument that placing a hobby(or any reasonable amount) of concrete in a stream is "dumping", then I would honestly question your reasoning. I am not commenting on what the law could be twisted to fit, I am talking about the reality.

Let me kindly remind you again that it is common practice to use concrete structures in waterways of every size. These structures CURE in the water and continue to cure until they return to dust and aggregate decades later. The structures consist of everything from damns and bridges to erosion control devices and water management features. They exist in the smallest of creeks and the largest of rivers. Hundreds of millions (billions?) of tons of concrete are used in such projects. The Hoover dam alone has 11 million tons I (dam, spillways, bypass tunnels) of concrete in it. Every storm drain on every street empties into a creek or river. They are made of concrete and asphalt. Limestone is commonly used as rip-rap. The waterways cut through caclerous beds and soils. What about the acid soils near evergreens? Pine cones, pine needles? Decaying plant matter... the list goes on and on, acid and base.

The PH shifting capacity or environmental impact of a few hundred pounds of concrete in stream is laughable, as would be the "salt" mixed into the DIY rock. We are not even talking about an ant fart in a windstorm here. Does your concrete driveway or sidewalk runoff into a waterway? It had to cure, it is still curing.

Basically why should the OP impact the area he lives in? If he is making DIY rocks to not impact a reef why not carry it over to where he lives? Because the IMPACT is non existent in any reasonable context and to argue any differently is a bit silly. Honestly.

If and when the guy decides to put a concrete plant on the bank of the 2 foot deep stream, then he may want to look into the effluent and the impact.

[KafudaFish]

Bean,
Yes I stand by my statement that it is dumping. What else would you consider placing the rocks in the stream? The amount should not matter. Yes its impact is minimal but it is still an impact.

And yes I WAS pointing out that someone could take what he is wanting to do with dumping. A neighbor could see what was happening and report him and he could be fined depending on the situation. As we both have said there is a difference between real world and theory. We know that it exists in every profession and situation. I realize that 500# really is just peeing in the woods but still it is a situation that the OP should not do.

I am sorry that your culvert has caused problems. This is probably one of those theory/real world issues. Does the City Public Works not maintain the culvert?

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12562969#post12562969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KafudaFish
Bean,
Yes I stand by my statement that it is dumping. What else would you consider placing the rocks in the stream? The amount should not matter. Yes its impact is minimal but it is still an impact. And I say that one of the silliest thing I have ever heard. I understand that the definition could be stretched to fit just about anything, but given the reality that concrete is the building product of choice for waterways...

...Anyway, I will pouring 2.5 yards of concrete this week for my deck piers. The area will directly drain into a french drain running under my deck. The water will travel 60 feet into the storm drain on the street. From there it travels about 100 feet and dumps into the creek behind my neighbors house. I suppose somebody could make the argument that I am dumping and that I should contact the DEP for a variance or permit, or be barred from pouring the concrete.

And yes I WAS pointing out that someone could take what he is wanting to do with dumping. A neighbor could see what was happening and report him and he could be fined depending on the situation. To be very frank, I am not sure who would be more petty and misguided, the neighbor or the person who actually writes the fine. If it were MY neighbor, then my problems would likely not be limited to "dumping", I fear that I would also likely be facing assault charges by the end of they day. I would face the charges blind because my eyeballs would have long earlier popped out of their sockets.

As we both have said there is a difference between real world and theory. We know that it exists in every profession and situation. I realize that 500# really is just peeing in the woods but still it is a situation that the OP should not do. I fully disagree, why should he not do it? Common sense should prevail. Instead we have people that are willing to twist the spirit and intent of the law to fit anything, just for the sake of doing so. Peeing in the woods, is peeing in the woods, nothing else. Putting a sack full of rock into the stream putting a sack full of rock into the stream, nothing else.

I understand your theory but, to me, that is where it should be left, as theory. I would fully support you telling somebody "bad idea" if what they were doing was really a bad idea. I would also support the idea of warning people that some nitwit neighbor my wrongly consider their actions harmful and some nitwit bureaucrat would be silly enough to listen.

I am sorry that your culvert has caused problems. This is probably one of those theory/real world issues. Does the City Public Works not maintain the culvert? It was not MY culvert or yard. The culvert in question was at the edge of a farmers property in Horry County, South Carolina. Storm water carried debris into the culvert and it flooded 5 acres. Without getting into the whole silly story, a sluice gate was constructed in place of the culvert and the property was flooded to the previous high water mark and is that way to this day.

We can fill a thread with thousands of examples of common sense being trumped by silly application of "theory" and law.

Enjoy the afternoon... I have post holes to dig (in the rain of course) and a hot water heater to replace.

[Rysam]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12562289#post12562289 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
According to some....Thorite used instead of portland will make rocks/plugs that need no curing.

yes, thorite, thoroseal, thoroplug, quickset,etc will make rocks that will need minimal curing, but it seals the rocks completely=no porosity. it works great for plugs, but for rocks where porosity is the main goal it fails. thats why portland is used. it is a porous cement when it dries.



i cure rocks in a stream over the winter when i have classes and no time to kure it in tubs . no 3 eyed fish or negative impacts have been recorded. its 1/2 mile from a preserve that is heavily monitored by the NR program at the local college. some is still in the stream in milk crates and so far ranger rick doesnt care. its hard to see as dumping when i have it all organized and laid out in order.
btw, i also am a NR student at that college.
if i parked my rig in the water,peed on the tires while it was there and changed my oil then yeah, i would be concerned. but not over a couple of hundred pounds of concrete. the 20 ft long bridge 25 ft downstream used far more concrete when we built it last summer. no issues.





where did common sense go?

[BeanAnimal]

Ranger Rick... Hey I had a subscription to that when I was a kid (or maybe it was my brother)!