sand??

[ReefKid15]

Im starting a 60 gallon tank and i would like to know what type of sand i should use.

play sand, or live sand from an LFS. play sand would help the budget but live sand would actually be live... does play sand from somewhere like home depot eventually become live?
and the last question, how many inches of sand should i have? is 3 or 4 enough?

[basssnake]

I wouldn't use play sand myself. I would buy a bout a inch worth of live sand and then order a few bags of caribsea aragonite sand from doc fosters(its only like 23.00 and a little shipping per bag for 30 lbs.) and put about a 3inch bed of that on the bottom and then put about a inch of live sand on top. The bottom layer will become live from that and cut down on cycling time. Otherwise, it will take your sand bed quite some time before it becomes live with bacteria.

[ReefKid15]

okay. thanks but i dont have a job and my parents wont help with the purchases. about how long will play sand take to become live with bacteria

[useskaforevil]

use play sand. i have for my lst 3 tanks with no problems and so have many others. and don't buy live sand, try and get like a cup worth of sand from an lfs or local reefer. it will seed fairly quickly. if you plan on curing your rock in the same tank thats actually probably good enough, as thats all i did for my first two tanks.

playsand is like $3 for 50lbs. don't waste your money on aragonite.

i did for my last tank however use about 2-3 inches of playsand, and 10lbs of garf grunge (80gallon tank) to seed this one, and i've been very happy with the results, it skidna cool finding tons of brittle stars and pods you don't remember adding.

[basssnake]

I don't have any experience in using play sand, so maybe it won't hurt anything. But if you use aragonite sand, you know it is useable since it is from the ocean, plus it will release needed minerals into the water and help with ph, where play sand won't. Saltwater tanks aren't cheap, so why go cheap?

[bill-fit]

I used a quarts sand for my last tank and it worked great. The sand came from the beach at Newport Oregon it was free.

Dont worry about getting help with PH or minerals from sand that isnt what its for its just a home for bacteria:D

There is one thing about this sand its a very small size and the play sand is too. I had a lot of trouble keeping it from blowing around and my glass was always getting scratched.

Thats why in my current setup the beach sand is in a remote sandbed.

[useskaforevil]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12563412#post12563412 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by basssnake
I don't have any experience in using play sand, so maybe it won't hurt anything. But if you use aragonite sand, you know it is useable since it is from the ocean, plus it will release needed minerals into the water and help with ph, where play sand won't. Saltwater tanks aren't cheap, so why go cheap?


you go cheap on sand because its near worthless to waste your money on aragonite. thats like saying you might as well get a tank with a starphire bottom because otherwise you're cheaping out.

[ReefKid15]

thanks to all of you.. it does seem like a waste to throw down $60 on sand when i can use it for corals or fish... i was also thinking of grabbing somw sand from the near by beach, does that hurt anything?

[Reef'in Colorado]

def get some beach sand....go cheap!!

Rinse well to be safe though.

[useskaforevil]

make sure its legal, but if you rinse it well and its a non polluted beach it should be fine.

[cmor1701d]

I wouldn't use beach sand due to the pollution possiblity. Playsand is fine, just seed it with some LS from a reef tank. Some lfs will give you a cup or sell you a pound or two, or find a firendly local reefer to get some from. It doesn't take much and LR will help seed it too.

[useskaforevil]

yea, he's right, honestly you should just buy it, i mean, max your talking what $6-7 bucks for clean playsand. just make sure to rinse it to get rid of dust

[Mykel Obvious]

I'd have to say you need to research sand types and decided what you want and why...

If you are going for appearance only, then a thin layer of play sand is fine, but if you want to build a true DSB for de-nitrification then you really need to go with Aragonite and make at least part of it Live Sand...

Here's where I'd suggest starting so you have a better understanding of How Sand Beds Really Work (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php)

Here's another good article on Sandbeds: Natural Filtration - Part 2 (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-05/newbie/index.php)

And yet another one Here (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm)

My personal opinion is an Aragonite DSB with at least 50% Live Sand... that's what is going in my 65 when I finally get to set it up this year

Hope that helps some,
later

[useskaforevil]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12564759#post12564759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mykel Obvious
but if you want to build a true DSB for de-nitrification then you really need to go with Aragonite and make at least part of it Live Sand...

why does only aragonite work for this? and the need live sand part is already addressed when you use a cup of sand from another tank.

[Mykel Obvious]

UseSka, I take it you didn't read any of the articles I posted? Sand shape is important to both de-nitrification and the sand bed critters...

One of the major factors is that silica/play sand is sharp and jagged in shape, and the aragonite is smooth and round, thus doing no harm to the critters that live in it (this IS what they are use to living in after all)

Read the articles and all will be revealed...

[basssnake]

Do as you wish. Aragonite sand will help with ph and water tends to want to become neutral and that is not suitable for saltwater. If you don't want to have to add buffer all the time and help keep the time in between using buffer longer, then use the aragonite. I mean give me a break, if you can't afford to spend 60 bucks on sand, you shouldn't get into saltwater, because you won't be able to afford it. Most real reefers, spend thousands of dollars to get going and it costs a bunch to keep things running. I luckily got most of my tanks already set up and saved money that way. But, if you can't afford sand, you might want to find a new hobby, cause the poor animals you put in that tank are going to suffer.

[useskaforevil]

I rearely add buffer to my water. as often as a water change. lol. most "real" reefers

none of those articles said you shouldn't use silica, in fact 2 of them said theres no real problem, with one off them mentioning they are sharper, but like i've said many of us have never had a problem. i havent had any sand sifitng animals but others have. also the buffering effect isn't that great according to one of your articles.

and for fun since we're making eachother read http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen9.html

this points out hat apparently aragonite can absorb phosphate, whihc seems to me to be a bad thing as eventually it will leach back out.

[ReefKid15]

to basssnake: i am a teenager without a job who loves fish tanks, and though ive used playsand in my past tanks they havent really been a reef tank. if all of you came to the conclusion and told me to put 60 dollars down on sand i would but i just posted this thread because i wanted to see what others did and thought. Money isnt an issue, im just trying to be smart with the money that i have.

to the bunch: the local beach isnt the cleanest so i guess i wont take the risk. Im leaning torwards buying playsand and adding a cup or two of live sand. the only thing i dont like about play sand is water flow makes big craters in the bed, in past tanks anyway. hopefully since this tank is taller it wont be that way.

[cmor1701d]

Adjust the power heads so there is less flow on the sand. I have a DSB and 2 Koralia-4's in my 125. I have enough flow to make sps on the sand wave, but not so much that craters are formed. Of course if the MJ1200 falls and points down, then I have huge a sandstorm.

[ReefKid15]

this will probably sound really dumb but what does DSB stand for? im guessing something sand bed but i am not reefcentral lingo smart...

[useskaforevil]

deep sand bed, some people use them, some don't. i've gone both ways. water flow will make craters in all sand beds but maybe silica is smaller and more likely to get pushed around?

[ReefKid15]

okay got it. yeah i think i will have the sand bed at 2 or 3 inches... not to deep.

[ReefKid15]

okay got it. yeah i think i will have the sand bed at 2 or 3 inches... not to deep.

[ludnix]

I used play sand for my 33g cube and now am using argonite for my 120. I'm much happier about the look of the argonite. I didn't have any problems with the play sand other than I eventually became very disappointed with how grey and dull it is.

[basssnake]

I just really think that it is best to mimmick the actual environment of the ocean if you are going to do it. If you aren't doing corals, then maybe it doesn't matter, but if you are, i would use what is in the ocean. I guess you can do as you wish, everyone has there own opinions.

[useskaforevil]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12568931#post12568931 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by basssnake
If you aren't doing corals, then maybe it doesn't matter, but if you are, i would use what is in the ocean


why do you think it maybe doesent matter for fish but corals it does matter? did you not read anything in the above posts?

[ReefKid15]

i will be putting together a tank that has coral and fish. so i guess live sand and aragonite is the way to go...

[basssnake]

I don't believe that the previous posts said anything about what i stated. Aragaonite releases minerals(that corals need more than fish), helps maintain ph, and is exactly what is in the ocean. If god intended for play sand to be in the oceans and it was ok, do you think maybe there would not be a difference in the two sands?

[useskaforevil]

lol. what minerals are released from aragonite? its CaCO3 so i geuss you're talking about calcium? thats only in high demand by sps and nobody thinks that you could provide enough calcium simply by having a sand bed. it does help maintain pH but pH change is due to CO2 consumption more than anything else. right? also the ocean has tons of silica sand in it so what are you talking about?

i don't have too much SPS in my tank but the LPS and the SPS that is there is doing fine.

i dont have a more recent picture but this one should be fine.
<img src="http://www.thereeftank.com/gallery/files/1/5/2/7/6/IMG_0258.JPG" alt="updated tank shots" />

[twogreyhounds]

I used a quarts sand for my last tank and it worked great. The sand came from the beach at Newport Oregon it was free.

Living in Salem, I've also thought about using sand from the Oregon Coast. My biggest problem with do that, besides the probability of pollution, is the color. Oregon beach sand is so very brown when wet - almost like a really burnt copper. That kind of defeats the fantasy of having a little slice of the South Pacific in your living room. I don't know, maybe it's just me. I suppose it can work just fine...

:smokin:

-Ryan

[basssnake]

Ok, well if you really think about it, where there is corals, there is aragonite sand. Silica sand, maybe, but not where there are corals. And you don't know crap about calicum oboviously. All corals require it, and yes maybe sps in high amounts, but in moderate amounts for all corals, including zoanthids. If a person likes corralline algae, there again, you need good amounts of calicum. And yes, your substrate won't give you enough, but it will help to keep the level up, and if you forget to add calicum, at least there will be some release. I don't care how much you argue, aragaonite based rather it be sand or crushed coral, is better substrate than play sand.

[ReefKid15]

okay.. well i have have to have the some live sand anyway becuase the live rock i got for free hasnt been in water for about a month so to make the cycling time not so long i have to have sand that already has bacteria in it

[useskaforevil]

look, what salt mix can you even buy that doesent have some calcium? the fact that you think a 3 inch sand bed is really providing anything but negligable amounts is kinda just, wrong.

and yes there is silica sand where there are corals, have you never seen wild coral before? besides, why couldn't there be? why abotu silica sand prevents corals from growing?


waste your money if you want, but at least know that your wasting it. oh and live sand in a bag thats been on the counter of a LFS for who knows how long isnt going to have anywhere near the amount of live stuff a cup or 2 of a fellows reefers sand would have.

[ReefKid15]

okay... so im guessing that silica sand is just about the same thing as play sand since the term as been used in place of play sand... but i still have to look into it, believe me i dont want to waste money.

[johnnyblaze313]

I just used kolorscape play sand in my tank and i loved the way it looked but after about a week i got a huge diatom bloom. No biggie i thought cause its a new tank ,well 2 months later the diatoms were just out of control and it was always in the back of my mind that the play sand was causing them finally i was fed up and pulled the sand. About a month later no more diatoms! I cant say it was the sand causing them but i cant say it wasnt either. The play sand scratched the bottom of the aquarium BAD and left a few good ones on the front panel to. I would say do not use it. If somthing goes wrong with your tank youll never no forsure if its the sand or not.

[useskaforevil]

i would believe it'd scratch the bottom, but since i don't look through the bottom i have no idea. i can tell you it wasn't solely the sand because i'm fine. and everything i've read says the sand is as insoluble as the silicone and the glass our tanks are made of.

[johnnyblaze313]

Ya i read the same thing about it being insoluble but the sand isnt screened or cleaned the way aquarium sand is so it could have been somthing that got mixed in the sand whille it was getting mixed or shipped. I contacted the company that makes it and the girl said the reason it says it MAY contain silica is cause it may or may not or it may or may not contain a number of impurities.Each batch varries. Maybe i got a bad bag i dont no. Bottom line theres no way to no until you use it on a specific tank and thats a risk that just aint worth saving 20 buck imo.

[useskaforevil]

i would say it probably does contain silica, about 50lbs in a 50lb bag.

all the play sand ive ever seen is screened well because people don't want their kids playing in rocks and metal shavings. regular sand at HD will have junk in it but play sand shouldn't. also if we're talking 50lbs of sand its about $60+ for aragonite, and $3 for silica

[ReefKid15]

okay so my current state of thinking is play sand because it is inexpensive. i would add a cup or two for the bacteria and stuff but i have had no problems in the past tanks. so this might be the final thing because im starting in like two days.

[Twz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12564893#post12564893 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by basssnake
Do as you wish. Aragonite sand will help with ph and water tends to want to become neutral and that is not suitable for saltwater. If you don't want to have to add buffer all the time and help keep the time in between using buffer longer, then use the aragonite. I mean give me a break, if you can't afford to spend 60 bucks on sand, you shouldn't get into saltwater, because you won't be able to afford it. Most real reefers, spend thousands of dollars to get going and it costs a bunch to keep things running. I luckily got most of my tanks already set up and saved money that way. But, if you can't afford sand, you might want to find a new hobby, cause the poor animals you put in that tank are going to suffer. Don't know you're facts?
I mean i have over $2000 into my 65 in progress and you know anything you can save helps
As for my sand it is just sand taken off the beach in florida seeded with a cup of sand from a established tank,
You're right about water wanting to become neutral but the buffering capability of aragonite
is far exaggerated, in fact my first saltwater reef tank i had used regular freshwater Pebble sand?
and had no problems at all
See water has natural buffers in it so you should NEVER have to add buffer as long as you're doing regular water changes
and just to add on to that that $60 can add up quite quickly, such as in my 120G
I needed 8 bags of sand to get the depth i wanted My LFS sells the bags for $70 each
the sand for the tank cost me just about $600
Now if i was able to find a alternative to buying "Live" sand i would have but that was my only option and it dose cost.

[useskaforevil]

also for the record, i have spent thousands on my tank. haha, hell i even own a 48inch solaris. but i don't bother spending money in places i don't need to. (unless its gimmicky and cool)

[Twz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12581720#post12581720 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by useskaforevil
also for the record, i have spent thousands on my tank. haha, hell i even own a 48inch solaris. but i don't bother spending money in places i don't need to. (unless its gimmicky and cool)
Sorry, a-bit off topic but i was thinking of selling my current lighting and trying out the
solaris how did you like it? do you have any tank pictures?

[useskaforevil]

that picture up above is of my tank, i'll take a few more and post them tomarrow. its night time(11:30)

[Twz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12581807#post12581807 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by useskaforevil
that picture up above is of my tank, i'll take a few more and post them tomarrow. its night time(11:30)
Oh, Duh!
Looks Very good,
And thank you =D

[bill-fit]

Twogreyhounds I agree with you on the color alot of people wouldnt like it. Pollution is a non issue. I collect it from the top of the dunes and pick any derbis like grass and sticks out of it.

My display is barebottom now but I still use the beach sand for a remote sandbed:D

[ReefKid15]

thanks so much everyone... i will be using either play sand with a cup of sand from an established tank. or (ill have to ask my lfs what they think about the sand) sand from the beach... i live on floridas gulf coast but im pretty sure that the lfs will say its not good for the tank.