Newbie needs a little help.

[bandh0526]

Me and my husband have been doing the freshwater thing for several months (we have a 75g fresh water cichlid tank) and just now decided to start in saltwater. A week ago today we bought a 90g setup w/the water, a shallow LS bed and about 110 lbs of LR. We also got a used 180g protein skimmer, a Marineland 350 canister filter (used already with saltwater) and 2 powerheads. We also have 3 starter damsels (strictly starter fish since we don't intend to keep them when the tank gets well established.) We also started a quarentine tank in cycle (a suggestion from this site - go me!) I guess my question is, where do we go from here? I've heard several people's advice and opinions but they all contradict, they are all different, but all have well-established tanks. When can I start a reef? How long do I need to wait to start it and should I start it first before putting fish in or should I do fish first? How about snails, crabs, shrimp etc? Should I put those in before the fish? When can I put those in? I know certain things can't be in a tank with other things - but where is a good place to start? I have enough patience, I just need to know when I can actually start on this thing!!!

[SleepyJ]

No need to have the damsels in there. The LR will cycle your tank for you. Keep testing for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. Once you have zero on all three tests for a couple of consecutive weeks, you can do a 10% water change and add a CUC. Give that time and add some coral. I put in fish after coral.

For a CUC, get a mixture. I would stay away from emerald crabs and stick to mostly snails and hermits. Some people don't like hermits, but they do a pretty good job and they are interesting. Just make sure you have empty shells for them to change homes, so they won't kill your snails. Ceriths and nass snails will help your sand bed. I like margarita snails as well. Turbos do a good job but can starve pretty quickly, plus they knock everything over. Astrea snails work but they can't right themselves when they fall over and quickly become something's meal.

Take it slow. If you think you are rushing, then you are. Nothing good happens in this hobby when you rush things.

[jfro]

Good advice from SleepyJ. Figure out the main theme of your tank first. It sounds like you want a reef tank with corals, inverts and fish. Start with the end in mind and make sure you have the lighting you need for what you want.

There is info on everything you want - read the info to see if the critters you get are compatible with your plans and with each other.

[tmz]

If your live rock is cured and was kept wet . you may not have much of a cycling time at all. There is no need for cycling fish. Good avice above.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12558487#post12558487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
If your live rock is cured and was kept wet . you may not have much of a cycling time at all. There is no need for cycling fish. Good avice above.

I'll second that:smokin:

and brandonandholly

[welcome]

[sjm817]

[welcome]
The other reason not to use the damsels is once they are in, they are very difficult to catch get back out.

[bandh0526]

Thanks for the advice on the damselfish and snails, I'll definately keep that in mind. The starter fish was a suggestion from the fish store owner - probably just wanted to sell me something because he knew I had tons of LR. Everything I bought for the tank was used already with saltwater and the LR was kept in saltwater before I bought it. So the cycling time shouldn't be too long? The reason for that question is that everyone has told me I needed to wait several months before introducing anything into the tank. I don't mind, but would like to get something small at least going in there. I forgot to mention that I have a Coralife light - since I bought it used too, I'm not sure what all the specifics on it are. I haven't been running my light at all to avoid growing any algae. Is that OK? That was the suggestion the store owner made.

Thanks again for the advice!!!

[marineaddict]

Your cycle can be anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months..... just wait it out. I agree with everyone else on the damsels...... unless of course you like them and want them in your tank for a very very long time! More than likely this will limit the other types of fish you can keep in your tank. Damsels are mean and will kill a lot of fish... even those bigger than them. Just be careful!!

Also, When the time comes to add fish, inverts, corals, etc.... go slow. Just becuase your cycle is over doesn't mean you can add a tang and a slew of anthias or something. Your tank is new and to stock that quickly will almost certainly end in some serious issues. Start with a good clean up crew (CUC) so as you add new items your CUC will do their job and help with the stability of the tank.

Good luck!

[EllieSuz]

Welcome, I think you're lucky that your spouse is interested also. Didn't happen that way in my house. You've already noticed that you can get vastly different opinions on Reef Central, so the question becomes whom do you believe? There are a number of individuals here whose knowledge and experience establish their opinions as nearly always correct. You'll get to recognize these individuals and learn to trust their advice. The more you browse RC, the more you learn. If one member recommends you get Damsels to cycle your tank and a dozen say don't, go with the dozen. You ask, when can I start my reef? I think you already have started it and you're well on your way to a successful experience in this wonderful hobby. Good luck, have fun!

[JBuffetReefer]

If you used all LS & cured LR you may not get a cycle, although if you have damsels, they will probably be the ones that cause any spikes in levels since they are messy fish.

You are right, the LFS had you buy the damsels so they could sell them, you don't need them for cycling.

All you really need for a new tank is LS and LR and some established water. With that you can pretty much start stocking immediately. I've done this before when setting up other tanks and when I upgraded from a 70g to a 120g tank.

Watch your water levels, wait til they goto 0 then do your water change and stock slowly and you'll be fine.

If you want something to read, I would reccomend the "Concientious Aquarist" along with "Marine Fishes" and "invertebrates" handbook. These should be mandatory reading for all SW owners. I wish I would have gotten these books when I first started and I would have saved a ton of money on fish.

Good luck and keep asking questions.

[jfro]

Also keep in mind that "cycling" your system is your way of allowing the tank to become a small and balanced eco-system. When you add new critters, you upset that balance. Adding a few critters at a time disrupts youe balanced ecosystem less than adding multiple critters. Fish, and the need to feed them, upset the cart the most (IMO).

And enjoy watching your live rock come to life - especially if you were lucky and got quality live rock. I love to get a magnifying glass and flashlight and search for the beginnings of new life.

[TheApprentice]

as soon as you test 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and very low nitrate start with corals (provided you have the lighting.) sounds like you spent a lot of money!! I am 20 years old and don't have it...yet...

Good luck with everything!

[Denbf58]

take your time and test test test try here for some good reading http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031074http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031074

[bandh0526]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12562885#post12562885 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Denbf58
take your time and test test test try here for some good reading http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031074http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031074

I did read those articles, but I was still unclear to when the cycle was complete. My water has tested 0 for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates since 3 days after I bought it! But several people (the LFS owner, my brother-in-law, the guy down the street, etc.) were still telling me at least a month before I added anything, despite what the readings were. Like I said, all my stuff was pretty much already in cycle when I got the tank since I bought everything used. The LS and LR was already in cycle in saltwater tanks from the LFS designated specifically for those things. I also bought the water premixed from there (since I haven't the slightest clue how to make my own...yet). THe protein skimmer, the filter and everything were used already. I actually got the filter straight off of another saltwater tank from the fish store and replaced the activated carbon and added an ammonia filter bag (the guy at the store told me to buy). The only thing not used was the stand and canopy which I'm pretty sure have nothing to do with the cycling of the tank! :D
I don't mind waiting if I know why I'm waiting. I was hoping to start a couple of coral in there and start building slowly from there. Don't I have to have some algae or something to get a CUC? I'm just a little confused. My tank (as of right now) is very clean. I'm sure it won't stay that way. So I need to try to grow some algae??? I know a lot of people who have it in thier tanks as part of thier cycle they say. Is that always a part of cycling a tank...growing algae? Thanks for the advice!

[Robgixxer]

i was reading the your info under your posts and noticed that you said you only have 30 lbs of rock in the tank but you said about 110 lbs. did you or did you not put all of that in your tank? The reason i ask is because in my opinion and others here will probably agree it is probably better to put all the rock you want in there and build a nice aquascape with it right off the start. if you put a little bit in and it cycles out, then you decide oh, i want some more rock in there. if you have had it left lying around the stuff on the rock would have died and then you put that in the tank and starts to cycle again. then you would have spikes of the bad things in the water and could be detrimental to fish corals, or whatever other living in the water. I have a 150 gallon tank that started not to long ago. had a few tanks before but never really had room for the bigger ones. between the rock in my refugium and the rock in my tank I have over 300 lbs. it took about 8-9 weeks to cycle my tank out. cause all this rock was dead. everything is balanced of now and i do have some fish in there but the tank is new still so now i'm waiting a bit.

[Robgixxer]

if you have that much rock on hand to work with i would recomend building something with caves and shelfs for fish and critters to hide and swim through. also some things that you will probably have in the tank will probably require somewhat different lighting needs. If you are doing SPS type corals, clams, stuff like that you would want to invest in getting some metal halide lighting. these types of lights can get expensive. but are definitely a must for these sorts of things. you would also want to keep things like this closer to the water surface near the lights. soft corals like mushrooms and stuff like that can be kept further down in the tank as they do not require as much lighting. in my tank i have two 175 watt 20k metal halides, 4 96 watt dual actinic compact flourescent bulbs. 2 96 watt 10k daylight compact flourescents, and 8 moon lights. and still think i need to get higher wattage halides.

[JBuffetReefer]

i didn't realize this was a 90g tank. 3 damsels in this tank won't cause too much of a spike in your readings. Since all of your equipment is used and you used established LR & LS you should be ok to start adding some stuff but do it slow.

I would seriously reccomend you mix your own water. This is what you will need.

1- 5g bucket of salt (brand really doesn't matter IMO, buy whatever is the cheapest.)
1- self starting siphon tube.
4 - empty 5g buckets (you can get away with 2 and then just buy a few buckets of salt and use those buckets since they are the same volume.)
2 - powerheads one small and one medium to large
6' of tubing
1 - refractometer (not one of the swing arms or floating ones, buy one that looks like a telescope since they are the most accurate)

For the powerheads, you will want a small one for pumping newly mixed water back into your tank. Use the small one for this step so the fish will have a chance to adjust to the water you are adding to your tank. THe large one will be for mixing your salt, you want as much water movement for this step as possible.

If you are keeping your tank at .025 salinity, you will be mixing about 2 1/2 cups of salt for each 5g of water. Use the refractometer to see what salinty the tank is at, you will want it to be as close to .025 as possible if you are going to keep corals. Add the water to the bucket and then add the mixing powerhead, once the water is moving, start pouring in the salt. Let this mix for about 15-30 minutes or until the water is as clear as it was before you added the salt. Take the tubing and stick it to the smaller powerhead and start pumping the water to your tank. I don't reccomend you just pour the water in because it will be heavy and you could spill it (not fun). You will of course do this after you have taken water out of your tank.

Plan on doing 10% water changes once a week for heavily stocked tanks, twice a month for medium stocked tanks and once a month for lightly stocked tanks.

If you could post some pictures of the tank, we could let you know if their is anything you might need to fix.

You also mentioned the skimmer was a 180g but didn't mentioned the brand name, that would be helpful to know, if you don't know post pictures of it.
Good luck

[Robgixxer]

here is an example of what you can do with your rock work.

<a href="http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/?action=view&current=NewTankPics001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/NewTankPics001.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/?action=view&current=AquascapingThe150016.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/AquascapingThe150016.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/?action=view&current=AquascapingThe150014.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/AquascapingThe150014.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

here is another of my tank setup. i built the cabinet and light fixture my self from scratch and suspended my fixture from the ceiling. that way i have clearance to work all the way around the tank on top.

<a href="http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/?action=view&current=150GallonFishTank3008.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll260/Robgixxer/150GallonFishTank3008.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[JBuffetReefer]

In regards to CU crew. You will need about 15-20 snails of different types. Most people reccomend 1 snail per gallon of water but this is overkill I think.

[bandh0526]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12563407#post12563407 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Robgixxer
i was reading the your info under your posts and noticed that you said you only have 30 lbs of rock in the tank but you said about 110 lbs. did you or did you not put all of that in your tank? The reason i ask is because in my opinion and others here will probably agree it is probably better to put all the rock you want in there and build a nice aquascape with it right off the start. if you put a little bit in and it cycles out, then you decide oh, i want some more rock in there. if you have had it left lying around the stuff on the rock would have died and then you put that in the tank and starts to cycle again. then you would have spikes of the bad things in the water and could be detrimental to fish corals, or whatever other living in the water. I have a 150 gallon tank that started not to long ago. had a few tanks before but never really had room for the bigger ones. between the rock in my refugium and the rock in my tank I have over 300 lbs. it took about 8-9 weeks to cycle my tank out. cause all this rock was dead. everything is balanced of now and i do have some fish in there but the tank is new still so now i'm waiting a bit.

The day I got the tank and put all the water, sand, etc. in it I put in only about 30 pounds of LR. That's the day I started going on this site.:D But the day after that we went and got the rest of the live rock and a few days later we got a couple more damsels. I kept checking the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and they never waivered. They all read 0.
I'll attach some pictures when I figure out how!

[tmz]

I would wait a couple of weeks with 0 ammonia. Since there may be some die off on the liverock from the transistion,you may get a small spike. You won't necessarily see alot of algae growth with aged rock and that's a good thing. The waiting is a precaution since it sounds like your rock is pretty well established. You wan't to be sure all three bacterial stages of denitrification are working. Ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate and nitrate to free nitrogen, so testing for these three is a good way to go.

[bandh0526]

Broke down and got a metal hyalide light. A friend of ours is gonna help us attach it into our canopy with the compact lights we already have! I'm getting really excited!!! We got rid of the damsels.