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rayoto
05/19/2008, 08:12 PM
Straight to the point:

55g display- 40 long Sump w/ fuge (chaeto and DSB), ASM G1 skimmer, two Koralia 3 with plenty of overflow and return. I just harvested the chaeto last night so its seem to be doing its job...now to the issue at hand- Nitrates have been steadily going down from off the charts a few months ago to 5 one hour ago. I have a Sand-Sifting Sea star in the DT thats has been cleaning the DSB (too much though...hes gone this weekend) 5 large Turbo Snails, 5 hermits and 5 Nassauris Snails. For some reason my LR is turning black. I'm assuming it is Phosphates leaching because the top of the DT water looks oily. Please take a look at my LR and give me any suggestions..One key note- I used Tap water for about two years before switching to RO. Been using RO for about 6 months. I'm not addding any coral or more livestock til I figure this out.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/ray4723/IMG_3591.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/ray4723/IMG_3593.jpg


This is a shot of the underside of a piece of LR..notice the white hair looking algae??
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/ray4723/IMG_3594.jpg

scrmbld33
05/19/2008, 08:23 PM
have you teseted for phos?

if so what reading did you get?

how often do you do water changes?

how old/type of lights?

seems like a phos. issue with the algae, have you thought about a phosban reactor?

id run carbon for a while if you used tap water for that long and do some bigger water changes, maybe 20g a week.

gulfstream
05/19/2008, 11:29 PM
there are few steps you can take to eliminate phosphates
in your system.
use a phosban reactor "TLF" comes to mind.
or if you can afford it get an RO/DI unit.
or if running a sump get some macroalgae this algae
thrives and growths on phosphates.
very sure there might be other solutions to your Phosphate
problem,however those are my suggestions.
cheers.

rayoto
05/20/2008, 05:58 AM
I haven't tested for Phos yet. I'll p/u a kit tonight.. I'm doing 30g water change every three weeks..maybe I need to increase to weekly smaller changes. I thought about a reactor...I think now is the time.

I'll do some research on macroalgae. I'm assuming it is different then Chaeto.

Thanks You have confirmed what I was suspecting. Any one else have suggestions??

rayoto
05/20/2008, 06:10 AM
Hmm. I just read this article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

and find that my chaeto should/is removing nitrates and phosphates. And due to the fact that I'm having to harvest it tells me it is indeed doing its job.. I will test tonight and p/u a reactor too.

SCIFI_3D_zoo
05/21/2008, 09:28 AM
I'm having some similar problems. One thing I wanted to add is test kits don't test low enough to really help here... except in really bad situations and new setups. I get 0 phos. all the time but the problem is algae will "thrive" in stuff as low as.. 0.015 ... I forget the exact #'s now. The only thing that can test in that range is a $200-$300 tester. So the best you can do is all the other things mentioned b/c that's an expensive testing device.

rayoto
05/21/2008, 07:12 PM
Well guess what... I took a large water sample and piece of LR to my LFS and everything was perfect...PO4-0 Nitrates-0 Ammonia-O Alk (don't remember the # but he told me is was perfect). He asked me if I have been doising with anything to get my numbers that good..I haven't.. I suppose patience and good husbandry truly are the key after all...imagine that.. He said the maroonish stuff on the LR was actually a form of Coraline.. I told him I planned on p/u 2 phosban reactors (carbon and phosban)..Guess I don't need them right now..He asked "What else can I sell you?" I think its time to ge tthe QT up and running huh?

rayoto
05/21/2008, 08:06 PM
.

SCIFI_3D_zoo
05/21/2008, 08:31 PM
Yea... red, maroon, purple, sometimes you see a yellow or some other color.. are all coralline. The purple will take over them all eventually. But for now all that green/brown/black stuff is bad algae and will smother your coralline out.

If your #'s are like that, then all that means is you have gotten through the beginning stages of cycling your tank and you are ready for some fish or something. You have enough bacteria and stuff on your liverock now to make a ecosystem that will help take care of your water parameters. Won't get rid of the low level of phos. that may be feeding your bad algae though. You may just have to wait that stuff out to die. You don't need them so cut off your lights for days, get a phosban reactor if you want but I would focus more on water changes. Take the algaes nutrients and light away from it and starve it to death. Bleach that rock.

rayoto
05/22/2008, 06:16 AM
You know, now that you mention it. My tank has been running for about 6yrs now. It was a FOWLR. I never had this problem til I upgraded the lights.. This sounds like a plan.

Aquarist007
05/22/2008, 09:00 AM
Is this the same live rock you used in your fowlr--if so it has had a long time to absorb phosphates and nitrates into the inner cores of the rock. This rock could leach this stuff out for a long time.
The reason you are not getting phosphate and nitrate readings is that the algae on the live rock is consuming them as fast as they are being produced

You stated you harvested some cheato because it was doing his job--just curious what you are basing that observation on?

I would definetly run the phosban reactor and the carbon one too--right away

I would also take out one rock a week and give it a good scrubbing quickly and put it back in the tank.
You could boil the rock but IMO this is overkill at this time

I think that if you just scrub it, run the reactors and the chaeto, and scrub the live rock off--this should do it

Tswifty
05/22/2008, 09:12 AM
+2 on capn's post...

also if your levels are in check I would say it would be ok to add a fish (5 trates are not bad at all)... possibly a small foxface or some other algae grazing fish, which will help remove some of the unsightly stuff, and keep it at bay after you perform some manual maintenance.

I just noticed your first post... what's your surface flow look like? If you're getting an oily look on the surface of the water you should try and increase some turbulence across the water's surface to get that broken up and down to your skimmer/refugium where it can be skimmed/filtered out.

Was your skimmer modded at all? Sorry, I forget...

Aquarist007
05/22/2008, 09:28 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12591792#post12591792 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
+2 on capn's post...

also if your levels are in check I would say it would be ok to add a fish (5 trates are not bad at all)... possibly a small foxface or some other algae grazing fish, which will help remove some of the unsightly stuff, and keep it at bay after you perform some manual maintenance.

I just noticed your first post... what's your surface flow look like? If you're getting an oily look on the surface of the water you should try and increase some turbulence across the water's surface to get that broken up and down to your skimmer/refugium where it can be skimmed/filtered out.

Was your skimmer modded at all? Sorry, I forget...

+2 on Tswifty's post
does you surface look like his--

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/surfaceflow.jpg

a yellow tang and a coral beauty would be excellent additions along with a fox face

rayoto
05/22/2008, 09:58 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12591721#post12591721 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
Is this the same live rock you used in your fowlr--if so it has had a long time to absorb phosphates and nitrates into the inner cores of the rock. This rock could leach this stuff out for a long time.
The reason you are not getting phosphate and nitrate readings is that the algae on the live rock is consuming them as fast as they are being produced

You stated you harvested some cheato because it was doing his job--just curious what you are basing that observation on?

I would definetly run the phosban reactor and the carbon one too--right away

I would also take out one rock a week and give it a good scrubbing quickly and put it back in the tank.
You could boil the rock but IMO this is overkill at this time

I think that if you just scrub it, run the reactors and the chaeto, and scrub the live rock off--this should do it

Yes this is the same LR.

I based my observation on the chaeto due to its rapid growth, I assumed it was due to the nitrate, phosphate consumption..along with the light.

I'll get on this.

thnx capn

rayoto
05/22/2008, 10:02 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12591792#post12591792 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
+2 on capn's post...

also if your levels are in check I would say it would be ok to add a fish (5 trates are not bad at all)... possibly a small foxface or some other algae grazing fish, which will help remove some of the unsightly stuff, and keep it at bay after you perform some manual maintenance.

I just noticed your first post... what's your surface flow look like? If you're getting an oily look on the surface of the water you should try and increase some turbulence across the water's surface to get that broken up and down to your skimmer/refugium where it can be skimmed/filtered out.

Was your skimmer modded at all? Sorry, I forget...


Yes I modded the skimmer (gate and mesh) and have seen noticeable improvement. Because my return is T'd I really don't get the amount of suface agitation that I would like. I think I will close one side a bit and see if it helps.

Capn. You say a yellow tang? Its a 55g. I thought a Tang was a no no in that size tank.

rayoto
05/22/2008, 10:12 AM
I would also take out one rock a week and give it a good scrubbing quickly and put it back in the tank.
You could boil the rock but IMO this is overkill at this time

I think that if you just scrub it, run the reactors and the chaeto, and scrub the live rock off--this should do it [/B]


Or should I say, "LR 4 Sale" and get new LR?

Aquarist007
05/22/2008, 10:19 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12592165#post12592165 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rayoto
Or should I say, "LR 4 Sale" and get new LR?


that's a little drastic and costly:eek2: at this point.

If the rock was used with copper based medications--then yes it would be toast.
Not in this case--if it has absorbs phosphates and nitrates they will leach out and you are prepared to handle them with the fuge and the reactors

add some fish with the money you would spend on new live rock---they aren't bothered by low level of nitrates, or phosphates and would eat hair algae if it did reappear

Tswifty
05/22/2008, 11:27 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12592102#post12592102 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rayoto
Yes I modded the skimmer (gate and mesh) and have seen noticeable improvement. Because my return is T'd I really don't get the amount of suface agitation that I would like. I think I will close one side a bit and see if it helps.

Capn. You say a yellow tang? Its a 55g. I thought a Tang was a no no in that size tank.
Also a SCWD would help... it only allows one channel at a time to open so you have strong alternating flow.

You may be able to just get away with angling a powerheard upwards a little also. Or if you have an extra small junky one laying around somewhere hide it near the top in the back corner and let it blow across the surface.

Another small thing... If you are using a HOB overflow box, then you want to make sure your powerheads are not blowing particles away from the box, or hindering them from being skimmed into the box.

Here's my thought on the yellow tang :lol:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll128/tswifty8/ft551.jpg

rayoto
05/22/2008, 11:33 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12592604#post12592604 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
Also a SCWD would help... it only allows one channel at a time to open so you have strong alternating flow.

You may be able to just get away with angling a powerheard upwards a little also. Or if you have an extra small junky one laying around somewhere hide it near the top in the back corner and let it blow across the surface.

Another small thing... If you are using a HOB overflow box, then you want to make sure your powerheads are not blowing particles away from the box, or hindering them from being skimmed into the box.

Here's my thought on the yellow tang :lol:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll128/tswifty8/ft551.jpg

Tang Point duely noted :D

I just returned from a local LFS..he had two used phosban reactors in the back...got them both for $40...They need a vinegar bath, but appear to be in excellent condition with all the fittings too.. I'll find out tonight.

Tswifty
05/22/2008, 11:41 AM
that's a great pickup on the reactors... nice score :thumbsup:

I'd just run them in 100% vinegar, as it will work faster than a mix of vinegar and water.

rayoto
05/22/2008, 11:49 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12592709#post12592709 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tswifty8
that's a great pickup on the reactors... nice score :thumbsup:

I'd just run them in 100% vinegar, as it will work faster than a mix of vinegar and water.

Thanks.. I am still in shock that I was able to get them at that price.

Will do. thnx

Aquarist007
05/22/2008, 12:20 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12592651#post12592651 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rayoto
Tang Point duely noted :D

I just returned from a local LFS..he had two used phosban reactors in the back...got them both for $40...They need a vinegar bath, but appear to be in excellent condition with all the fittings too.. I'll find out tonight.

oh did I say yellow tang--guess I meant to say dwarf angel:lol: :rollface: :lol:

If you go with a really small tang like that one--don't add a foxface also--that would be too much

rayoto
05/28/2008, 06:15 AM
Update:

I took a few vacation days and was able to get to work on the honey-do list and get the phosban-carbon reactors up and running too. Its amazing how much cleaner the tank looks after 24hrs. I'll snap some pics tonight..

inachu
05/28/2008, 06:41 AM
My rocks are starting to look like yours.
I see a little pinch of purple on them.
Can't wait to see purple algae grow like crazy.

rayoto
05/28/2008, 06:52 AM
Yeah, taking one LR out at a time and scrubbing as capn said really seems to be helping too. Having the reactors running is beneficial.

Aquarist007
05/28/2008, 07:12 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12628712#post12628712 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rayoto
Yeah, taking one LR out at a time and scrubbing as capn said really seems to be helping too. Having the reactors running is beneficial.

:thumbsup: :beer:

look forward to the pictures being posted

rayoto
05/29/2008, 06:38 AM
Here is a pic I snapped this morning. The water is significantly clearer and the rock is already beginning to look better. I was also able to adjust the return a bit to create more surface agitation. Most of the oily mess is now being pushed through the sump. I do have a little spot on the left that I'm still trying to eliminate.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/ray4723/IMG_3602.jpg

will16
05/29/2008, 07:31 AM
Do you have any pics of our phos/carbon reactor setup? I am considering doing it but am pretty tight on space. Did you mount them in sump or out?

Thanks.

rayoto
05/29/2008, 07:51 AM
I'll take a pic tonight when I get home. I know what you mean about tight on space. I mounted them on the outside of the sump.

Ray

Larah
05/29/2008, 11:27 AM
Oh man do I feel your pain!
I went through the phosphate issue when I first cycled my tank with tap water....
Ever dince I've been using RO water and haven't had a problem.... Now all of the sudden I]'ve got major isues again...
Brown diatoms on absolutely everything... thoguh it seems to be mostly on the sand.. Guess I'll have to do whta you did and gt a reactor... Can't wait to see the pics of your sunp area and the reactor set-up......

Aquarist007
05/29/2008, 12:27 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12637540#post12637540 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Larah
Oh man do I feel your pain!
I went through the phosphate issue when I first cycled my tank with tap water....
Ever dince I've been using RO water and haven't had a problem.... Now all of the sudden I]'ve got major isues again...
Brown diatoms on absolutely everything... thoguh it seems to be mostly on the sand.. Guess I'll have to do whta you did and gt a reactor... Can't wait to see the pics of your sunp area and the reactor set-up......

Hi Larah---I know you can't take your rocks out and scrub them because they are too big

do you mean brown algae or bryopsis--there is a simple solution that alot of reefers are reporting great results with
that of increasing magnesium levels ot 1600 ppm
here is the thread where it is discusssed
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1113109

Aquarist007
05/29/2008, 12:29 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12635943#post12635943 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rayoto
Here is a pic I snapped this morning. The water is significantly clearer and the rock is already beginning to look better. I was also able to adjust the return a bit to create more surface agitation. Most of the oily mess is now being pushed through the sump. I do have a little spot on the left that I'm still trying to eliminate.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/ray4723/IMG_3602.jpg

good job--direct one of your k's right at that area on the left so it is pushing it towards the overflow

Aquarist007
05/29/2008, 12:31 PM
here is a suggestion for phosban reactors setup

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/DSC_0053.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r107/reefescapetangster/IMG_4525.jpg

rayoto
05/29/2008, 12:43 PM
Will do on the K's. That is how my reactors are setup only I have alot less room..

Aquarist007
05/29/2008, 12:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12638054#post12638054 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rayoto
Will do on the K's. That is how my reactors are setup only I have alot less room..

Its still worth while if you have a picture to post it so others can see how they are set up in confined spaces

rayoto
05/29/2008, 01:02 PM
Not a problem.

Larah
05/29/2008, 02:20 PM
Yeah it's Diatoms Captn'... Not bryopsis....
It's a golden brown dusting of diatoms all over the white sand bed.. Grrrr..... I thik it was brought on by my RO unit needing it's filters replaced.. It happend right after a 20% water change....
I've changed the sediment and carbon portions of the filter and I'll be doing a much smaller water change this week... We'll see what happens... ;)

Larah
05/29/2008, 03:50 PM
What pump should I get to run the TLF Phosban reactor?
it doesn't come with one so I guess I need one...
Brand name and GPH please...

kayne_21
05/29/2008, 04:03 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12639249#post12639249 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Larah
What pump should I get to run the TLF Phosban reactor?
it doesn't come with one so I guess I need one...
Brand name and GPH please...
I use a mini-jet 404 for my phosban reactor.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4585+14665&pcatid=14665

Aquarist007
05/29/2008, 06:47 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12639249#post12639249 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Larah
What pump should I get to run the TLF Phosban reactor?
it doesn't come with one so I guess I need one...
Brand name and GPH please...

a minijet will work fine with the phosban(60-120 gph)
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/707/Mini-Jet-Pumps

Aquarist007
05/29/2008, 06:49 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12638666#post12638666 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Larah
Yeah it's Diatoms Captn'... Not bryopsis....
It's a golden brown dusting of diatoms all over the white sand bed.. Grrrr..... I thik it was brought on by my RO unit needing it's filters replaced.. It happend right after a 20% water change....
I've changed the sediment and carbon portions of the filter and I'll be doing a much smaller water change this week... We'll see what happens... ;)

direct a power head at it and use a turkey baster to lightly baste the substrate--get it and the phophates back up into the waster column where they can be filtered off

rayoto
05/30/2008, 05:44 AM
Here are a few pics of my sump as promised...I know the collection cup needs emptied, I thought I'd show TJ how well the mod is working (LOL) ASM G1- mesh and gate valve mod- Got it running a little too wet though. The filter sock is three days on now..will change it out tonight along with other Friday evening maintenance. I'm running an old Maxi-Jet 1200 off my old HOB skimmer for the reactors.

Like I said...tight quarters:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/ray4723/IMG_3603.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/ray4723/IMG_3605.jpg

Check out the fan on the right..it appears to be off..It is indeed running on high; talking about fast shutter speed..I love my Canon xt
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/ray4723/IMG_3606.jpg

Tswifty
05/30/2008, 06:07 AM
That's one healthy looking fuge there :thumbsup:

rayoto
05/30/2008, 06:11 AM
Can you believe it. That chaeto grows like crazy..It obviously is being fed well.

Aquarist007
05/30/2008, 06:54 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12643060#post12643060 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rayoto
Can you believe it. That chaeto grows like crazy..It obviously is being fed well.

great setup---hard to believe you can get all of that in such tight quarters

could you repost this picture in this thread---so others can see your sump and refugium

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1349443

rayoto
05/30/2008, 06:54 AM
Be gald to.

rayoto
05/30/2008, 09:30 AM
correction: glad to

will16
05/30/2008, 08:44 PM
Thanks everyone for all the info!

Bud Reeferman
05/30/2008, 09:01 PM
Re: your thought about the waterchange volume. I think that a 30g change on a 95g system every three weeks is kind of extreme. Try a lower volume more frequently, i.e. 15 gals every other week.

Aquarist007
05/30/2008, 09:33 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12648291#post12648291 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bud Reeferman
Re: your thought about the waterchange volume. I think that a 30g change on a 95g system every three weeks is kind of extreme. Try a lower volume more frequently, i.e. 15 gals every other week.

good advise Bud---considering the main reason for regular water changes is to renew trace elements and keep the water chemistry in balance. If you are using two part eg and your system is stable no need for frequent high volume water changes.
I am running two refugiums, bionic two part phosban and carbon reactors--my water is very dense with inverts for the corals---I may do a water change every six weeks now

Aquarist007
05/30/2008, 09:36 PM
that said you have to be very careful what salt mixture you use and be aware that they differ quite a bit in calcium, alkalinity and magnesium
Billy beau's study has an excellent comparison chart:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1287118

SCIFI_3D_zoo
05/31/2008, 09:54 AM
From what I've read/heard 10-20% /month is the norm. You can do all sorts of things. 5-10% /2weeks, 5-10% /weekly... and everywhere in between. You go outside that 10-20%/month then you are starting to experiment a bit. Won't hurt anything.

I think it's purely a function of the "well-balancedness" of your system (waste,filtration, etc.) and the "maturity" of your tank. Some of the experts here have said they've gone 6-8 week without a water change. I heard one TOTM'r say he has or can go 3-4 months. In fact I just read that again by a pro the other day.

It might be better to do a 10% bi-weekly, but monthly is ok too if you have no problems. All depends on what you have in your tank too. SPS are much more sensitive of course. Personally, I'm all for ONLY what you need to do... nothing more. If it's not necessary to do water changes but once a month then I'm all for it. And in the future I'm gonna keep reading about these guys who say their established well-balanced tanks can go months without it. I'd like to know more about how to have a tank on steroids and do less work. :smokin:

Aquarist007
05/31/2008, 09:58 AM
Great answer scifi---we are on the same page on this one :)