Where do I go from here?

[Mike5252]

I wanted to thank RC members. I'm new here but have already gained a wealth of knowledge.

I currently have a 210 gal FOWLR tank set up with a 55 gal sump, 10 gal refugium, 150lbs LR, 4" sand, & a skimmer. Lighting is CF at 384 watts.

I have only 5 fish: a porci puffer, dog face puffer, Picasso trigger, clown trigger, & a sail fin tang. All of which have been part of the family for about 4 years now.

My question is: I would love to be able to add something, but what? I have not bought anything other than salt and CF bulbs in what seems like forever, and would love to be able to add something. A second tank is not an option, unless I want a divorce in my future. It's hard enough to justify this one past the "family budget".

I've often considered adding something to the 10gal refugium, but it just seems like such a small area. Most of it is full of "reef rubble" and Miracle Mud/sand. Thoughts?

I'm assuming anything added to the main tank will be eaten/killed as the fish are used to eating anything I put in there. There was a time I wanted a Maroon Clowfish or Snowflake eel, but have not tried either. I also would never consider parting with any of these fish to start over. I don't know of any inverts that would work, but would love to try (possibly in the refugium?) There used to be a fairly large mantis shrimp that lived with us for about a year, but the triggers got him one day (long story).

Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas?

[Sk8r]

Well, you're doing something right to have those fish healthy and growing after 4 years.
I wonder if, for one thing, ordinary discosoma mushroooms might not brighten up your tank and provide some motion---without getting eaten. They spread well, take little light, are inexpensive, and thrive on a little extra food in the water.
Green star polyp is another unkillable, and I don't know if the fish would bother it, but I'm pretty sure the tang wouldn't.
A purple dottyback might be onery enough to hold his own: the dottybacks are (I believe) relatives of the wolf eel, and for sheer intelligence and low cunning (you can't catch one) as well as a little touch of mayhem, they're hard to beat. They come in yellow, purple, etc.

[mattsilvester]

Mike - Sk8r's idea is good - in my view. 384W of light is more than enough for common 'shrooms and star polyps, and from my experience their husbandry requirements are "warm water with salt in it"..... i.e. bullet proof - if anything they thrive better in slightly "dirty" conditions (compared to a reef tank).

The only thing is the triggers might just tear them to bits for something to do...... but I would say they will be fine.....

If you are looknig for a fish to add...... something, nimble, bold, and different - a thalasoma wrasse fits that discription pretty well.... a paddlefin might be nice? Lunare would be lovely - but can turn nasty.

[Mike5252]

Thanks for the ideas - I might give the discosoma mushrooms a try.

Water current is pretty strong. There are 2 Koralia 4s, 4 returns from the sump, & 2 canister returns. Plus the return from the refugium, but that is marginal.

The triggers love to dig in the sand and move small pieces of rock. The dog faced puffer does this thing where he appears to "blow" in the sand. All of them searching for bristle worms or pods of some sort. Whatever they can find.

I'll probably try to place the mushrooms higher in the tank to avoid some of this activity.

Can you have too much light or current for the mushrooms?

[mattsilvester]

In theory, yes, you can have too much light / current. You do not have too much light though - no need to worry there - as far as current - just don't place them directly in the line of fire.....What is your total turnover rate? I would say you are ok though - I mean a really high flow SPS tank might to OTT for 'shrooms, but if you can keep sand on the bottom of your tank, then your flow isn't that strong.......

If I put sugar fine sand in my tank, it would look like a giant fluidised sand bed filter.... LOL ..... I've got a turnover of 50x :D

[Mike5252]

Nice! I would like to see.

Well the 2 Koralia 4s are rated at 1200gph, but I consider them different because the flow is a much wider spread. Or should I not?

The main return is 900gph, each canister is 450. So :
4200 / 210 = 20x or is it 1800 / 210 = 8.5x. Or do I need to include the entire volume of water, ie. 55+10+210?

Also, another quick question regarding diet. Their main diet is krill, squid, & silver sides all soaked in a vitamin suppliment. What are some other feeding alternatives? I've bought raw whole shrimp and clams before at the grocery store, but don't anymore because I'm concerned about contamination. Or should I not be? I read somewhere you should only feed with food processed for marine fish. Any thoughts?

[Mike5252]

I also once heard you could feed live earthworms, but have never tried.

[JustinReef]

Do feed the clams and prawn but just freeze them for a few days first. That will take care of anything harmful. Then thaw them in vitamin water and its a great meal for your fish.

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12600305#post12600305 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mike5252
I also once heard you could feed live earthworms, but have never tried.

I have fed them to freshwater and brackish water fish but I wouldn't for saltwater fish. Its not a natural part of their diet.

[Grouperhead]

Try feeding some spectrum pellets if you want to vary the diet some. Triggers and tangs especially love the stuff, and I'm sure the puffers will catch on.

If you want to add another fish, a large angel/tang, eel, or grouper would be nice.

[spamin76]

Trying to find some corals the fish won't eat might be a better idea than adding fish, since the clown trigger may not take nicely to new comers. Some mushrooms or small leathers may not be apetizing to any of the fish. But you would have to experiment.

As for refugium dwellers, have you considered some of the very small gobies? There are some species that never get past 1" and 10 gallons would suit them nicely(if you wouldn't mind putting a little sand in there)

[Mike5252]

Thanks everyone for the great advice. I'll be trying out various mushrooms and possibly something small in the refugium (gobie or the like).

Sometimes in this hobby you go through times of peak interest and other times of dreading the maintenance needed and boredom with your current setup. I purchased these fish knowing the responsibility required and perseverance needed to raise them to adulthood. I knew their adult size would limit my population and place a strain on the bio-load.

They've been moved from 75gal to 125gal to my current 210gal to adjust for their growth. In the past, it was this upgrade that helped to keep me motivated, but I have no plans (or means) to upgrade the aquarium size again.

Lucky for me, I stumbled onto Reef Central about the same time I "hit the glass ceiling". Thanks again to everyone.

[sean48183]

Sounds like a nice tank and you have some cool fish in there. First thing I would do though is upgrade your fuge. For a tank that size you should have at least a 50g but 75g would be even better. Get a used tank or use rubbermaid containers but you need to chew up those nutrients.

I don't know if any of your lfs's carry coral frags but if they do pic up cheap frags trying find one that works in your tank. Just make sure to epoxy them down with the fish you have or they will get moved around. The lfs by house has a great selection of$10 soft coral frags(shrooms, zoo's, polyps, lps among many others). I buy one and see what happens. These type of corals will grow relatively fast in your tank with the type of feeding you have to do to keep those beasts you have going.

As for adding fish I would add relatively large aggressive fish in a trio to your tank and after chasing around your current fish with a net to get them spooked and into the rocks. I would try something like a big wrasse(maybe a lunar or tusk), a grouper of some type(Maybe miniatus) and maybe a large angel(queen or emperor). I always add fish in 3's to spread out the aggression. I would only do this after you have upgrade your fuge because you will be adding a serious load with fish of this size and eating habits.

[Mike5252]

Thanks Sean.

I do also have 2 large canister filters that get as populated as the refugium between cleanings, they do the bulk of the cleaning. Also have 2 filter socks in the sump.

Nice idea with the frags.

As far as the fish, you don't think I'm already at my limit? I would think adding 3 of anything would be quite a crowd. I did see a 8" lunar wrasse at my LFS, but didn't even consider it at the time. Hmm.

[LisaD]

As far as the fish, you don't think I'm already at my limit? I would think adding 3 of anything would be quite a crowd. I did see a 8" lunar wrasse at my LFS, but didn't even consider it at the time. Hmm.

Since getting rid of any of your fish is not an option for you at this time, I'd say you are pretty close to full up. I know how tempting it is to add another large fish, but I'd worry about aggression and eventual size, especially of the clown trigger. What species of porc puffer do you have? There is one that stays reasonable sized, and another get really big. You maybe could add one more fish, but it would have to be one that is prepared to hold its own with that mix. If you add another fish, I would change the aquascaping, and try to catch the most aggressive fish and put it or them in a bucket when you acclimate the new arrival. (Also, if you can, QT any new fish at least a week or two - you can use a large Sterilite or Rubbermaid container if you don't have a QT tank.)

Since you have sand, a Thalassoma wrasse might be a good addition. The coris wrass is gorgeous, but I think it might get big. I love harlequin tuskfish, but this wrasse may not be assertive enough for your mix.

You might ask danorth for his recommendations. He has a number of aggressives, including clown trigger, that he's been keeping together for quite a while. Another tang or an angel might also nice additions, if you can get the fish to get along. I'd check adult size on any potential new additions and try to keep it to a fish that doesn't exceed 8-12".

If you like eels, there are several good choices including snowflake, Brazilian dragon moray (my current favorite), goldentail, etc. The fish would probably leave the eel alone and vice versa. Be warned, every snowflake eel I ever had (2) walkede out of the tank and died.

A combination of gobies and pistol shrimp is fascinating, if you have the abilty to observe their behavior in the sump. Tiger pistol shrimp are good sized and very active. You could try a single or pair of yasha shrimp gobies if you want to go colorful/exotic. There are other nice colored shrimp gobies that are a little smaller as well. You don't usually have to get the shrimp with the goby for them to pair up.

[Mike5252]

My porci is Diodon holacanthus, sometimes called a long spinned porci puffer. He is about 10 inches long. He grew to that size pretty fast, but hasn't grown any (in length) in the last 2 years. I'm assuming he's adult size now.

The clown trigger is about 12" and still growing, the Picasso trigger is about 10-12" I think he's probably adult size too. The tang is HUGE. But sailfin tangs always look huge.

Thanks for the advice, I think I'm going to stay away from adding any fish. At least to the main tank. Recently I bought "Reef Bugs"

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+7927+18508&pcatid=18508

I'm hoping they can assist as a type of clean up crew. It's pretty cool stuff so far. Any thoughts?

I don't have pics with me today, but will post when I do.

[reefergeorge]

How about some pics? Your tank sound great.
I would add some shrooms, zoas, and star polyps. They thrive in my tank with a humma humma and porcupine.

[LisaD]

According to wetwebmedia, which is pretty accurate on fish size:

Diodon holacanthus Linnaeus 1758, the Long-Spined Porcupinefish. Circumtropical in distribution. To some eighteen inches in length in the wild. Can be told apart from the similar D. liturosus by its longest spines being on top of its head. A comical, hardy addition to a fish-only rough and tumble marine system...

So it's possible your porc could get bigger. I agree your picasso trigger is probably adult size, and the clown trigger still has a ways to grow... now that you've posted their sizes, I'd agree, staying with the fish you have is probably the best idea. In fact, I can see a possible tank upgrade in your future with the clown trigger. :) The times I have done the most damage is when I had a long-term, stable healthy tank set-up and couldn't resist adding "just one" more.

Definitely post a pic, your tank sounds awesome!

[sean48183]

IMO your a little understocked for that size tank but I tend to keep alot of fish. I think you could get away with one for sure and 3 more dissimilar type fish more than likely. The lunar would be a nice addition. I have one and find him highly entertaining. He chases his own tail, flies across the tank at the top and then just nose dives into the substrate like a pelican, and sometimes just sits on top of my eel. He's not aggressive at all but is not shy. either.

[sean48183]

Also I didn't notice what type skimmer you have. A big skimmer can really help handle a heavy load. I use an octopus 250 recirc on my 220g of water and it does a great job.

[Mike5252]

I have a Coralife Super Skimmer 220gal.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+13924&pcatid=13924

It works really well. Are you thinking I need an upgrade? I often thought about buying a second one...

[LisaD]

If your tank is doing fine, I don't think you need to upgrade. I have never used a CSS, but have heard good things about them. Sounds like you are doing things right, with the longevity of your fish.