QT with ammonia!

[nsinger]

I set up a 20 gal QT 3 days ago with water from my DT and a Marineland Emperor 280 HOB that had been in the sump of the DT for 5 days. I got a medium sized naso 2 days ago who I'm trying to coax to eat but isn't. Yesterday my ammonia was 0, today it is .5! I did an 8 gallon water change today.

Is this common? Bad? Can I add "colonize" in an attempt to get my bacteria up? How often and how much water changes do I need to do until the ammonia stabilizes?

Thanks.

[abulgin]

Yes, common. I assume that your QT doesn't have any substrate, live rock, etc., which leaves your filter media as the only place for bacteria to grow. In the display, there is just so much surface area, whereas in the QT the surface area is limited to the filter media. Accordingly, QTs are typically easy to get readings and you just need to be vigilent about water changes. I'd do a 50% water change pronto to get your ammonia down. If you're not treating your Naso with any medicines (e.g., copper, etc.), you can throw a few pieces of LR that you don't care about (reef rubble works great for this) in the tank to boost the bacteria culture. If you need to treat, just pull the LR out (but don't put it in your display as you'll just introduce the disease into the tank).

[nsinger]

I do have some LR rubble in my refugium in my DT, that has a lot of hair algae on it. Would that help? The tang has not eaten yet - do you think it will eat hair algae? If so, would it then be even harder to get the naso to eat frozen food? I can take the algae off the rubble if you think that would help.. Thanks.

[abulgin]

It can't hurt so long as you aren't treating the QT with copper or other medicines. The reason your Naso isn't eating is probably because it's stressed from being in a small QT--it just may not eat until it gets into the display. Unfortunately, tangs are very susceptible to crypt, so this is not one of those situations where you should just take your chances by throwing the fish in the display without the full 4-6 week quarantine period. Try hanging some dried nori on a clip in the QT to see if that helps. I'm not sure if Nasos eat hair algae. They are generally good eaters, so I don't think you're going to have problems getting it to eat flake, frozen, etc. once it's in the display, assuming it's healthy to start with.

[nsinger]

I am not treating with anything. I hope it doesn't wait to eat till it gets into the QT because that will be about 4 weeks! I tried the nori soaked in garlic on a clip, he just snubbed his nose at it.

Later today I will try binding some garlic soaked nori to my fake coral.

As far a water changes - should I do 50% changes daily as long as there is any ammonia present?

[Megalodon]

I like to add a lot of base rock to my q tank and cycle it with pure cleaning ammonia prior to adding fish. This will ensure enough bacteria grow to handle the sudden load of newly-added fish.

[abulgin]

Too late to cycle the tank now. You should do at least 50% water changes--ammonia, in any amount, and even more so nitrite is bad for your fish/toxic. The problem is that by doing water changes, you're keeping the cycle from really happening, but it's a catch-22--do you allow the tank to cycle while the fish is in the tank (bad) or really slow the process by changing water. I think the latter is better in your situation. Nasos aren't cheap. Next time, set your QT up a week or so in advance and "feed" it with a pinch of flake food every day. Also, when you're done with this QT, keep your filter media in your display sump when not in use--that way, you always have an established filter media to drop in your QT when you get it up and running for a new addition. You might want to buy some Bio-Spira from your LFS and dump it in your QT to help boost the bacteria culture. It's expensive but the only "bacteria in a bottle" that works, IMO.

[nsinger]

I do have some non-live rock in my basement. I didn't put it in the QT because I was concerned that if I do have to treat with copper, I would then have to take it out of the QT and there goes a bunch of bacteria. But if I put in base rock, will I then have to remove that if I treat with copper?

I had that same concern with putting in LR rubble to my QT - that if I do treat with medications I would have to remove it and there goes a lot of my bacteria.

[nsinger]

As far as the cycling - I had been told by 2 people (none of you) that all I had to do was the DT water and the HOB in the DT sump for 4-5 days and that I'd be ready to go - so that's what I did. My naso is expensive - he's a male blond - so I really don't want to stress him out.

I don't have the option of going to a LFS.

Should I just dump some LR into the QT now? I would be happy to dump the LR if I have to treat the fish.

[abulgin]

You don't "have" to remove the base rock from your QT if you treat, but just understand that it will be "ruined" so to speak because it will absorb the copper/medicines in the QT water. Copper is going to kill your bacteria, whether it's in your filter media or your LR. That's why I said to use LR that you don't care about keeping (because you'll have to chuck it once you're done medicating).

[nsinger]

OK. Then I'll put in some LR rubble. Thanks.

[nsinger]

Sorry, another question. If I have to treat for ich, and use hyposalinity, should I get rid of the LR when I start the treatment?

[Lotus99]

Yes, you should get rid of the rock if you're treating for ich. Don't put it back in your DT for 8 weeks.

I had a small ammonia spike in my QT. I did water changes and used Amquel to keep it safe for the fish. I read to use an Ammonia Alert badge, and that certainly helped monitor the ammonia in the tank (but also do liquid tests).

[abulgin]

Wait! If all you're doing to treat ich is hyposalinity, you don't need to replace your rubble. The only reason to replace the LR in QT is if you're using copper or other medicines, because the medicine will be absorbed by the LR. If all you're using is hypo, then you don't need to replace the LR. The reason people tell you not to use LR in QT is that they assume you're treating with someting--the LR is basically unusable after that. If you're not adding anything to the tank, however, the LR remains good, and I would keep it in your QT.

[alpha0r]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12606163#post12606163 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nsinger
As far as the cycling - I had been told by 2 people (none of you) that all I had to do was the DT water and the HOB in the DT sump for 4-5 days and that I'd be ready to go - so that's what I did. My naso is expensive - he's a male blond - so I really don't want to stress him out.

I don't have the option of going to a LFS.

Should I just dump some LR into the QT now? I would be happy to dump the LR if I have to treat the fish.

It takes longer than 5 days to colonize all the forms of bacteria you need to a high enough density. Water changes are a great option for you now.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12609063#post12609063 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alpha0r
It takes longer than 5 days to colonize all the forms of bacteria you need to a high enough density. Water changes are a great option for you now.

I agree with the water changes to reduce the ammonia

and you can put a piece of live rock from the dt in your qt even for hyposalination--the bacteria will take a small hit but grow back again quickly
I would also really cut back on the feeding---fish eat they poop--it produces ammonia.
The best thing is to get the spirulina algae tablets from Sera--you stick one to the side of the tank and the tangs peck at it all day--little to know mess or waste adding up in the tank

[tmz]

I use seeded crushed coral (argonite substarate) in the filter bag of the hob and in a small tuppeware tray at the bottom of the tank. Works better than a seeded sponge for me and I don't mind throwing it away when I'm done with it.It will absorb some copper if used which makes it necessary to test closely and supplement the copper that is absorbed. Absorbing media you use(rock,substrate etc.) shoud not be put back into your reef system not only because they will leech back medications but also because they may carry in disease.

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12606165#post12606165 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
You don't "have" to remove the base rock from your QT if you treat, but just understand that it will be "ruined" so to speak because it will absorb the copper/medicines in the QT water. Copper is going to kill your bacteria, whether it's in your filter media or your LR. That's why I said to use LR that you don't care about keeping (because you'll have to chuck it once you're done medicating). I'd like to get the facts straight on copper. It will not destroy your denitrifying bacteria in my experience. I have used it a therapuetic levels on many occasions with no discernible effect on the qt tanks ability to maintain zero ammonia.In a previous post I asked for a source for this notion since I don't believe it to be true and you state it as fact..
The only caveat I have ever seen regarding copper and denitrifying bacteriais in the manufacturer's instructions for Aquarium System's Sea Cure Copper treatment.
" Efects of Copper on Biological Filtration: Copper treatments may initially cao a drop in the effeicency of the biological filter. Generally this drop is less than %20.....Normal denitrification will resume once the bacterial bed develops a tolerance to the copper"

A less than %20 decrease should not even be noticeable in a clean ,low biolaoad qt tank. Remeber bacteria only live about 24 hours and adapt quickly to a variety of conditions including copper and hyposalinity. For the later a 2 day sg downward adjustment period is favored to allow for any needed adjustment since the bacteria can't osmoregulate.

Please refrain from making absolute statements without hard factual data.

[otrlynn]

To chime in with a comment and question...I have five fish in a 29 gallon hospital tank (starting hypo for ich). I put filters with filter pads that had been in my main tank for 10 or more days in the hospital tank. After a little more than 2 days I had an ammonia spike that nearly killed my fish, I was up 'til 2 a.m. doing water changes. Moral of the story? Feed lightly and check for ammonia frequently! This morning I put a few small pieces of live rock from my DT in the hospital tank. I'm not planning on doing copper. Can these pieces of rock be added back into the tank after the 6-8 weeks needed to eradicate ich. I have read that one should not put the rock back in the DT because of the risk of carrying disease back to the DT. However the point of the hypo is to kill the ich parasite--so there really shouldn't be any left on the rock that has been in hypo. Thought?

[tmz]

If not medicated the rock should be ok. However, even though the time frame to rid a tank of ich is commonly accepted as 6 weeks,some cysts have remained viable without hatching for up to 72 days. Hypo as copper only kills th free swimming stage,so there may be a very small risk with rock reintroduced after 6 weeks.

[tmz]

One other thought, I would use part of the time waiting for the rock to bring the sg up slowly(ie acclimate it back to nsw sg). This will help the denitrifying bacteria to adjust.

[otrlynn]

nsinger, in a situation remarkably similar to yours, I've just had good luck with two products. I have 5 fish in a hospital tank due to ich on a Kole tang. I am in the process of gradually lowering the salinity to 1.009. I had an ammonia spike that I think I caught just in time. I did what amounted to a 50% water change over several hours. However, I bought "Ammo Lock" as soon as the LFS opened in the morning. The fish look even better after using this. It does not remove the ammonia, but it says that it converts it to a non-toxic form. The bottle says to use it every two days. I will be doing this as well as keeping a better eye (daily) on the ammonia levels and doing water changes. Also, the Kole tang has seemed pretty uninterested in Nori on a clip. I just soaked the Nori in "Garlic Guard" and rubber banded it onto a small piece of live rock. As soon as I put it in the tank he started picking at it.

[reefergeorge]

Like otrlynn said. I always use prime, but ammo lock will make the ammonia safe for your fish. I had a trigger in QT, and I couldn't keep the ammonia under 1 for longer than a day. I used prime, and everything worked out fine.

[nsinger]

I've used Amquel for the past 2 days, and the ammonia seems to be going down. Can I use Prime today? I do have some at home - there is no LFS anywhere near here to get ammo lock.

A question about QT and my naso tang. He's been in the QT 4 days, and despite all the tricks I've learned, he is still not eating. He does pick a bit at some LR. Today, day #4, he is breathing a little hard and is not swimming around as much. He is definitely acting differently. There are absolutely no spots on him. My question is this - I have a 150 DT that is currently fishless and is presumably disease free. Should I just take the naso out of QT and put him in the DT? Maybe he needs the room and cleaner water, as well as a bunch of hiding places and LR. If he does look sick, I can try to catch him and put him in the QT.

Despite all that I've read on this forum, I have been having problems with my little QT.

[tmz]

IF he hasn't been qtd after a full treatment then he will likely bring desease with him.

[nsinger]

But if he does bring disease with him to my 150 DT, in which he will be the only fish, can't I just remove him back to the DT and let the DT go fishless for 6 weeks (which I will do anyway because I will need to fully QT another fish), thereby letting any hitchhiker bug die?

[tmz]

ortlyn, I have good results with Ammo Lock as well. Many also recommend Amquel.

Don't take too long dropping your sg or a second wave of parasites may hatch in qt and get to your fish.

[nsinger]

Sorry, I meant that I would remove him back to the QT and let the DT go fishless.

[Aquarist007]

I re read the thread--I am confused a bit as to what treatment you are using in the qt.
It would appear like hyposalinity? If so and you have brought the salinity down to 1.009---what are you using to measure this level
At this level there is not much margin for error---the salinity level in the fish is 1.008.
going above 1.009 can cause problems with killing all the ich off

Suggest using a refractometer for measuring the salinity

If you are using copper to tread then I have read in a number of posts that some tangs to not do well with copper medications

[reefergeorge]

If he is the only fish in the DT. IMO I would add him if he is showing signs of stress, and remove to a hospital tank if there is a problem. I wouldn't add any other fish for 6-8 weeks to be safe. This is just my opinion. So don't flame me if it is wrong.

[reefergeorge]

Capn. I don't think he is treating with anything. Just is QT for observation.

[nsinger]

So this is the story. I have had the new naso in Qt because I just got him 4 days ago and was observing him, closely. I was not treating with anything. I hate to say this, but 5 minutes ago, for the first time, I noticed 2 ich spots on him. I am therefore staring hypo now, per your suggestions. I take back my idea to put him into the DT. Does this make sense?

[nsinger]

I am starting hypo as soon as I get my RO/DI water the proper temp.

For ich - I have used an herbal remedy called ich attach on my 90 gal tank that has 4 fish. Maybe just time, but after two weeks and now, 3 months later, the ich is all gone and all the fish are great.

Any ideas on using that in addition to hypo - or is that overkill - or worthless?

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12615733#post12615733 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nsinger
But if he does bring disease with him to my 150 DT, in which he will be the only fish, can't I just remove him back to the DT and let the DT go fishless for 6 weeks (which I will do anyway because I will need to fully QT another fish), thereby letting any hitchhiker bug die? :D Yes, 6 weeks fishless should get them all,although some cysts have been shown to survive for as much a 72 days.Other than that and the potential need to move him again to treat him if he shows symptoms, I don't see any reason not to take advantage of the available 150g.

[otrlynn]

Here is a link to a thread re starting hypo that someone on here passed on to me several days ago. I found it to be very helpful.

[suzimcmullen]

Oh yuck. That sucks about the Ich.

Suzi

[tmz]

I would not use ich attack,personaly.
I'd also be wary of th 90g for new fish for 11months from when the ich started in this tank,particulary those that may be ich prone,since their is a very good chance that the ich is still there unseen and that your fish have developed a partial immunity.If so newcomers will be targets.

[nsinger]

Thanks again for all your help. Unfortunately, I'll probably be asking you guys some questions in the future.

[otrlynn]

Oops, I see that I neglected to post the hyposalinity link that I referred to above...

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html