grounding probe? Does it need to be hooked directly to the outlet??????

[Txcowboy22]

My LFS says u must have a grounding probe, is this true? Also I bought one but it says it must be hooked directly to an outlet, is this true? I mean I don't have just a single outlet available, they are all used....

[aastretch64]

I just recently discovered that my tank had 45V running through it do to all the pumps. I would say it is a great investment for $20.

You have a choice of plugging it directly in the outlet or connecting it to the center screw that hold on the outlet plate. Check out this Ground Probe (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~SearchStr~ground%20probe~action~view~idProduct~TA1111~idCategory~FIMIGF~category~Titaniu m_Ground_Probe_Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies_Miscellaneous_GFCI_Cords___Grounding_Probes~vendor~.html)

Alex

[Txcowboy22]

bad link. Is it ok if I just plug it into my power strip?

[badazztealcobra]

Says right on the back of the package of the one I just got to not plug it into an extension cord or power strip. If you dont have an outlet you can ground it to the outlet housing itself....

[newmoon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12620770#post12620770 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badazztealcobra
If you dont have an outlet you can ground it to the outlet housing itself....

Hmmm, and how can I do that if there's no outlet(thus no outlet housing) to begin with? :)

[sabbath]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12620831#post12620831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by newmoon
Hmmm, and how can I do that if there's no outlet(thus no outlet housing) to begin with? :)


If you don't have a outlet. Then you don't need a ground prob.


BTW. How do you run a system with out one?

[Txcowboy22]

wow, I was just wondering if I could plug it into an extension cord. The probe itself will not reach to the outlet.....

[johnnyblaze313]

I asked about ground probes a while back and it seemed like alot of the guys who really no there chit didnt want to touch the subject, its a bit of a controversal subject i think. The one thing thats for sure though is a gfci is a MUST and i think they said its real dangerous to run a ground probe without one, its dangerous peroid to run a aquarium without one but i think installing a probe ups the odds of current. Just thought id throw that out there incase you were looking to use a ground probe for safety.

[Txcowboy22]

I dunno really. Whats a Gfci?

[johnnyblaze313]

Someone will explain this better im sure, but its a ground fault circuit interrupter i think it trips out when the voltage or somthing changes i really dont no all i no is its the safe way to run a aquarium. Most houses have them in the kitchen and bathrooms there outlets with reset buttons on them. Im prolly the last person you wanna talk to about this i have no electrical knowladge but definitly do some reading on them, they are a must have safety feature when mixing water and electricity

[Txcowboy22]

I am pretty sure it is then. All I know is when I have everything running in my apartment and turn the microwave on the breaker goes......

[sabbath]

It is preferred to have the ground prob back at the power source as much possible. So if the best you can do is a power strip. That is better that nothing IMO.

I use 3 GFCI as well. 1 for pumps, 1 for lights & one for misc. They with trip in Milli seconds with Milli amps going to ground. Thus making your system much safer.

[johnnyblaze313]

heres a gfci


http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn125/johnnyblaze313/GFCI_Electrical_Outlets.jpg

[johnnyblaze313]

There u go thats who you need to talk to an electrician

[Txcowboy22]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12622129#post12622129 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by johnnyblaze313
heres a gfci


http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn125/johnnyblaze313/GFCI_Electrical_Outlets.jpg

oh, I don't think I have that.

[sabbath]

This what I did. I just got three cords, Boxes & GFCI's

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb11/ptlguertin/DSC02988.jpg


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb11/ptlguertin/GFCIs.jpg

[ackee]

Ground fault interrupters are essential. if your grounded outlets were not built with them, a GFI power strip will serve the same safety function, assuming you are using a grounded outlet. Ungrounded outlets are hazardous old technology, and should be rewired by an electrician for any application, aquarium or otherwise.

Ground probes are not the same as a GFI, which is a kind of circuit breaker. Ground probes in effect bleed off stray voltage which does not belong in the tank. They are supposed to be connected to a solid electrical ground. If you have a powerstrip plugged into a properly grounded outlet, you can use the strip as a ground point for the probe by buying a large replacement three prong plug. Disassemble it. Remove the two flat prongs which carry current. remove their wire connections. Attach your aquarium ground probe single wire to the now one legged plug fixture's single green coded ground wire. It's the round post below the now discarded flat prongs. Plug this single round grounding plug into the strip, or any grounded fixture. You have now provided a ground for thr ground probe. If this is beyond your competence and comfort level, have an expert do it for you.

[pixelpixi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12621965#post12621965 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Txcowboy22
I dunno really. Whats a Gfci?

A GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) detects when the current flowing through the hot wire is different than the current flowing through the neutral one. This indicates that current is finding some other path back to ground... either through the ground wire, directly to earth, through plumbing, etc. Regardless, if the current through the hot and neutral wires differ, it's a dangerous situation. The GFCI detects that and cuts the power.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12622233#post12622233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ackee
and should be rewired by an electrician for any application, aquarium or otherwise.


you can use the strip as a ground point for the probe by buying a large replacement three prong plug. Disassemble it. Remove the two flat prongs which carry current. remove their wire connections. Attach your aquarium ground probe single wire to the now one legged plug fixture's single green coded ground wire....

Hrmmm

:)

[BeanAnimal]

Anyway,

You can plug the GROUND PROBE into a power strip or extension cord as long as it is a grounded. The instructions say otherwise because of liability.

That said, if you use a ground probe YOU MUST have your equipment plugged into GFCIs. While the ground probe does abate some danger, it creates other dangers. The GFCI is a must!

I do not recomend putting everything on the tank on a single GFCI. A faulting piece of equipment or a nuisance trip will bring down the whole tank. You should, especially if using a grounding probe, divide the equipment among several GFCIs.

The DIY "power snake" GFCIs above are an easy way to do so.

[ackee]

Not sure what the 'hmmm' is about bean, but the 'done by an electrician' comment applies to redoing that part of a residential electrical system which does not have grounded outlets.
Given that grounded outlets do exist, a GFI equipped power strip can be used to attach the single non-current carrying wire attached to a grounding probe. You can also tie the end of a probe wire to a water pipe, or any other conductive metal object which goes to earth, or ground. there sees to be much confusion about GFIs, which act as circuit breakers tripped by imbalance rather than overload, and grounding probes, which are harmless devices, unless you do something stupid with them, like inserting the wire into an inappropriate orifice.

[clevengergl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12623363#post12623363 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ackee
...unless you do something stupid with them, like inserting the wire into an inappropriate orifice.

Wow :eek1: Talk about a SHOCKINGly good time....
Ba-dum-ching!!! :bum:

[Txcowboy22]

ok so I guess I am going to get rid of the probe

[clevengergl]

So if you plugged the two or three powerstrips with your tank equipment on them into 3 separate GFCI's, would there still be a need for the grounding probe? Is it more sensitive that the GFCI or something, allowing it to leech some of the stray current out before the GFCI actually trips and shuts everything off?

[clevengergl]

Also, where do they sell those extra three-prong plugs used in the DIY GFCI? Can you get those at an local hardware store?

[johnnyblaze313]

How do we start a poll, id like to see how many people actualy use gfi's. I went my first 5years or so not even thinking i needed one till i got shocked one day and then i thought wait that cant be good, then Bean broke it down for me now where all safe over here. Theres some pretty scary stories out there about people not using them , after i read them i didnt even go near my tank for like 3 days till the electrician installed the gfis

[ackee]

GFIs and grounding probes have no relationship to one other. They do entirely different things, so a thousand ground probes will not do what one GFI does, and vice versa. GFIs are serious business, essential safety devices through which current flows from the electrical mains, and which have the ability to shut off the electrical flow if they detect an imbalance, caused by any number of things. Grounding probes are low tech simple devices that simply ground the aquarium water itself by proving a pathway for stray current that can come from powerheads, heaters, all kinds of things that may leak a little current. They are not really essential, just a bit of extra protection.

The three prong plugs that can be disassembled and reassembled are available from any electrical store, Home Depot, etc. They come apart with small screws. Remove the current carrying blades, leave only the center roundish ground plug. Attach probe wire to set screw on round ground plug. Reassemble. Plug into a corresponding center hole, the only place it fits, on any grounded outlet or powerstrip, hopefully one that is ALSO equipped with a GFI, for totally different and more important purposes.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12623363#post12623363 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ackee
Not sure what the 'hmmm' is about bean,

In one paragraph you said that an electrician must do the electrical work... work that is very easy.

In the second paragraph you give advice for the OP to tear apart a male plug and modify it... something that a person who does not have the skills to safely replace receptacles should also NOT be doing.

That's all... No big deal... notice I did smile (as I got a chuckle out of the post).

but the 'done by an electrician' comment applies to redoing that part of a residential electrical system which does not have grounded outlets. Of course, if somebody does not have the skill and knowledge, they should have an electrician do the work. That does not mean that a homeowner can not safely do electrical work.

Given that grounded outlets do exist... Thanks for the lesson, but I have a firm grasp of electrical systems and grounding. (not being rude, just letting you know that I am more than a little versed in the subject).

there sees to be much confusion about GFIs, which act as circuit breakers tripped by imbalance rather than overload, and grounding probes,I did not see any confusion... then again I did not read every post.

which are harmless devices, unless you do something stupid with them, like inserting the wire into an inappropriate orifice. That is not the case at all. A ground probe in a tank that is running equipment WITHOUT GFCI protection is a danger. The probe creates a path for current to flow when it otherwise would not.

I.E. You have a faulting lamp (salt creep) but you don't know it. You reach into the tank, standing on your little step stool and wearing rubber shoes. You do not get shocked... but you lean in a little more to get ahold of that rock you can barely reach and in doing so you shoulder makes contact with the reflector (that is not grounded, or not grounded well). You get whacked because the current flows from the reflector through YOU to the grounded water and ground probe. If the light was on a GFCI this would not happen.

There are a hundred and one examples of real world dangers just like this. You must use a GFCI with a ground probe.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12623463#post12623463 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clevengergl
So if you plugged the two or three powerstrips with your tank equipment on them into 3 separate GFCI's, would there still be a need for the grounding probe? Is it more sensitive that the GFCI or something, allowing it to leech some of the stray current out before the GFCI actually trips and shuts everything off?

No, if the current flows to the grounding probe, then the GFCI will sense the "missing" current and trip.

All the GFCI does is compare the current on the HOT wire and ensure that it is being returned on the NEUTRAL wire. If the current goes anyplace else (to ground or another circuit), the GFCI trips.

All the ground probe does is connect the mass of your tank to the earth, just like you concrete floor and plumbing.

[ackee]

"then again, I did not read.."

Hmmmmm

You are correct, of course, and silent battalions of electrocuted aquarists bear witness to the folly of my ungrounded observations.

Though you may already know this, and please do not be insulted if you do, be certain to shut off the current at the main fuse box befor doing any extensive residential rewiring.

[Malenurse]

clevengergl,
Having a GFCI has nothing to do with having a grounding probe.

[reefergeorge]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12623418#post12623418 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Txcowboy22
ok so I guess I am going to get rid of the probe

That's what I would do..
Here is my favorite article to post. http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html
Now I'm off to the liquor store to get some more beer for the rest of this. :)

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12625240#post12625240 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ackee
"then again, I did not read.."

Hmmmmm

Well that addresses the part about the confusion of some people and the difference between a GFCI and a GROUND. To which I said I did not read every comment in the thread, and still have not, as I could care less. I see you did not address the my comments or my observation about your advice. It would appear that you are more concerned about being insulting than you are about the topic at hand. Maybe I am just reading your tone wrong, but I doubt it.

Though you may already know this, and please do not be insulted if you do, be certain to shut off the current at the main fuse box befor doing any extensive residential rewiring. Was that meant as anything more than an insult? Honestly?

[BeanAnimal]

You are correct, of course, and silent battalions of electrocuted aquarists bear witness to the folly of my ungrounded observations.

Of course they would be silent... they would be dead, as that is what electrocution means :)

In any case, it is hard to discern your tone here.

1) you are implying that I was correct, and that the ground probe used without GFCI protection DOES in fact create danger that does not normally exist without it.

-OR-

2) You are implying that I am wrong because there are not reports of "battalions" of dead aquarists that used Ground Probes without GFCIs.

If it is #1, then I do misunderstand your tone and you have my apology.

If it is in fact #2, then I suggest you step back and think about the advice you have given and put it into context with the danger that the ground probe can create if it is not used in conjunction with GFCI protection.

[nsamuel]

This is my first post to reefcentral, though i have been lurking for sometime and learning from all the wonderful articles here. As you can guess, i have been reading all the discussions on the forums and various links to articles around the web about ground probes and GFCIs. I have couple of basic questions that have not been discussed in the forums here so far.

1) I understand the life saving roles GFCIs play. But, i have not been able to any news article that describes someone dying from aquarium related electrocution. Is there anyone here who knows a friend who has been atleast seriously injured that he had to be hospitalized ? I have been shocked several times (some of them from touching 240V circuits !!), but i always withdrew my hand or body as instinctive reaction and i didnt get any serious injury.

2) I guess all the outlets are 2 pin plugs in most of USA. At my home, i have all around 2 pin plugs inside home and i have a few 3 pin plugs outside the living area (in garage for laundry and outside walls for lawn connections). To really use GFCI inside my home, don't i have to make sure that there is a grounding point in my walls (where the plugs are currently). "Without" a grounding wire that is distributed from the breaker panel to all around the home plugpoints, using GFCI would be pointless, from my understanding. My home was built in early '80s in california. The home breaker panel is connected by copper wire to the grounding rod. So, is this connection to rod is distributed throughout the home (to the plug points) using wire connections ? If so, it must be hidden behind the 2 pin socket outlets, because the socket only exposes the "hot" and the "neutral" to me. I am considering simply replacing many of my outlets with GFCI wall outlets around the home.

3) Can i plug a 3 pin grounded "multiple point" outlet to one GFCI and then connect couple of my aquarium gadgets into this ? Or should i buy the more expensive GFCI that come with multiple outlets.

4) Much has been said about how having a probe could be dangerous - someone gave an example of touching the faulting metal halide lamp and then with another hand inserted into tank water, and this causing current flowing through heart into the probe and going into the ground through the probe. But i can not imagine any situation where life would be threatened, if all the equipment around the aqurium are all connected to GFCI. Can someone describe why some people say a probe would be dangerous, even when GFCI are present all around.

4) Lets say i plug in a ground probe into a multiple outlet GFCI (using the disassemble/reassemble of a 3 point plug method), and lets say a bit of stray current comes from various units into the ground probe..... Would this tiny current add up to the 5mA required to trigger the GFCI ?

5) The only reason i see for using a ground probe is to deal with a situation where a heater has let in some water into it and got shorted and has energized the entire water column. In such a case, it seems to me that having a ground probe would kill all the fish. I assume that the resistence of a probe would be much less than what our body has. Is this correct ?

[sabbath]

nsamuel


<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>


I will let bean answer this one. I'm still to tired.

[BeanAnimal]

1) in 1999 Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) reported taht there were 440 accidental electrocutions with 170 of themrelated to consumer products

Breakdown of the 170:
39 household wiring
29 to small appliances
22 to large appliances
15 to power tools
13 related to ladders
12 to garden/farm equipment
9 to lighting equipment.

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), reports an annual average of 111,400 home fires caused by faulty electrical distribution systems, electrical appliances and equipment, or heating and air conditioning systems...

Those are 1999 numbers, and MANY homes had already been wired with GFCIs in wet locations. The GFCIs certainly do prevent many fires as well as electrocutions. However, the NFPA has decided the the AFCI wil be mandatory in ALL new homes, for almost ALL branch circuits. This is to cut down that 111,400 home fires. My honest opinion and the AFCI stats are two different things, but that is for another thread.

I am sure you can find more recent stats if you look.

2) Most homes built from the late 60's on will have grounded (3 prong) outlets. Many older homes (pre 1960's) will have already had their outlets upgraded. So, no "most homes" do not have them, but they are not uncommon. If you home was built in the 80's with ungrounded outlets... then I am must now know something about California.

A GFCI does not need a ground to work. It senses the difference in the current being sent down the HOT and returned on the NEUTRAL, if there is an imbalance, then the GFCI trips.


3)According to the NEC:

Sec. 210-7(d)(3) permits any of the following installations when replacing a 2-wire ungrounded receptacle:

(a) Replace it with another 2-wire receptacle;

(b) Replace it with a GFCI-type receptacle and mark the receptacle with the words “No Equipment Ground;” or

(c) Replace it with a grounding-type receptacle protected by a GFCI device (circuit breaker or receptacle). Since the grounding terminals for the receptacles are not grounded, you must mark the receptacles with the words “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground” (see sidebar below).

4a) I think you have misunderstood the danger. The danger is when a probe is used and GFCIs are NOT used to protect the otehr equipment in and around the area.

4b) No the stray current will not trip the GFCI. The GFCI reads the differecne in current between its own HOT and NEUTRAL. But there is no need to plug the ground probe into a GFCI.

5) That is a hard question to answer. Every situation will differ. In theoery the ground probe will be the least resistive path to ground. As for the "need" for a ground probe, I will leave that up to your own research . There are certainly MANY pro and con scenarios.

[newmoon]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12621099#post12621099 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sabbath
If you don't have a outlet. Then you don't need a ground prob.


BTW. How do you run a system with out one?

Read better next time will ya? He said :

" If you dont have an outlet you can ground it to the outlet housing itself...."

That's why my answer. How can you ground to an outlet if you don't have one to begin with?
Makes no sense to me, or am i missing something??

[newmoon]

So for the ground probe experts here. I have a GFI, do i need a ground probe or not? And if yes, can i use it in the same powerstrip that is connected to the GFI?

[sabbath]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12643437#post12643437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by newmoon
Read better next time will ya? He said :

" If you dont have an outlet you can ground it to the outlet housing itself...."




This is ok if you have a outlet ( receptacle ) that has a good ground. Many non grounded outlets "do not". I would not assume the metal box as a good ground. Use a GFCI or Have electrician look at it.

[/QUOTE]
That's why my answer. How can you ground to an outlet if you don't have one to begin with?
Makes no sense to me, or am i missing something??


We both might be on this one.

[38bill]

This may have been covered already but Ill try to make it a little more simple.

GFI's do not need to be grounded. If you have a old house with outlets that are not grounded you can replace the outlet with a GFI or use a stand alone GFI and it will still protect the circuit.

Some older houses have metal outlet boxes but they are not grounded because only fabric covered 2 conductor wire was used.

You can ground the tank to a grounded outlet or anything metal that is grounded. If a power strip has a ground and it is plugged into an outlet that is grounded I see no reason why it wont work, a ground is a ground.

A ground is good, a GFI is much better, using both is best. If you only use one, use the GFI.

[biger]

You can also just put in a GFCI circuit breaker.

[nsamuel]

Bean,
Thanks for your clear response. You opened my eyes. After reading your reply, i checked my home outlets. Lo and behold, they all had 3 holes to plug in. Which means they are all grounded. I was so used to plugging in the 2 prongs of all our small appliances, that my mind remembered only seeing 2 plug holes. Weird the way mind works. Since i am not an electrician, i can be excused i guess for bothering with my silly question in item 2 of my post.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12643142#post12643142 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
1) in 1999 Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) reported taht there were 440 accidental electrocutions with 170 of themrelated to consumer products

Breakdown of the 170:
39 household wiring
29 to small appliances
22 to large appliances
15 to power tools
13 related to ladders
12 to garden/farm equipment
9 to lighting equipment.



I would assume that "aquarium gadgets" would fall under the category of small appliances. Total of 29 deaths using all houshold small appliances. Possibly less than 5% of US home have aquariums. Of this 5% i guess only less than 1% would have fallen to eletrocution. So out of the 29, the chances that one of them fell prey to an aquarium electrocution is close to zero. (even if we count the 9 lighting related incidences). But this does not mean we should discount the danger. I was simply curious about the probability since my daughter would be dealing with the aquarium too. That is enough reason for me to not even take the slightest chance and i would be putting in GFCI.

I want to clarify the item 3 in my original post. I was wondering if i could plug in one of those "multiple outlet" extensions into my GFCI outlet and then plug in a couple of my aquarium gadgets into this outlet. In other words, the aquarium electricity would be going to the GFCI indirectly. I know this is not the ideal situation. But, if plug points are limited, can i use this method ? The GFCI would still trip i imagine.

Bean ....Do you use a grounding probe ? Since you seem to be a seasoned electrician, i am curious about your take on this 2 sided issue. I read up that article which discusses how a grounding probe could become the reason for tiny currents that circulate in aquarium and fish would be exposed to this tiny current, leaking from our powerheads/heaters. If the probe was not present, the fish would not be faced with this current, according to the author.

BTW, a small tidbit i want to add to this discussion. This is directed for the others, who are reading up on GFCI. Be aware that the GFCI that are like the "extension cord type" are usually not "self starting" after a power outage. Whereas the wall outlet type GFCI are designed to restart when the power comes back on. This is critical spec for us.

[sabbath]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12654681#post12654681 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nsamuel
Bean,






I want to clarify the item 3 in my original post. I was wondering if i could plug in one of those "multiple outlet" extensions into my GFCI outlet and then plug in a couple of my aquarium gadgets into this outlet. In other words, the aquarium electricity would be going to the GFCI indirectly. I know this is not the ideal situation. But, if plug points are limited, can i use this method ? The GFCI would still trip i imagine.


BTW, a small tidbit i want to add to this discussion. This is directed for the others, who are reading up on GFCI. Be aware that the GFCI that are like the "extension cord type" are usually not "self starting" after a power outage. Whereas the wall outlet type GFCI are designed to restart when the power comes back on. This is critical spec for us.


Yes you can plug a power strip ( "multiple outlet" ) into the GFCI. I would try to use more than one GFI thou. So if one thing trips it. There is a chance that the other doesn't and you still have some items going still. ie my pics on page #1

I use a ground prob. It helps my controllers probs accuracy.

[Mark426]

I am not and electrician but my brother has a large commercial electric company and he refuses to use a "at the outlet GFCI” anymore. I know from my own experience that those “at the outlet GFCI” are as much trouble as help. They have quite a short life and are prone to tripping at the worst time. The BEST solution is to have the circuit breaker that feeds the tank replaced with a “circuit breaker GFCI”, they are soooo much more reliable and cost about the same. I don’t suggest you fool around inside your breaker box unless you are comfortable with electrical stuff. Get an electrician to come over and install one for you, it takes less then 5 minutes and is by far the best solution. Whatever your do, don’t be stupid, make sure you have GFCI on your tank.

The ground PROBE thing.... ???? Never used one but they sound good on paper, not sure about how they work in actual practice.

[BeanAnimal]

nsamuel....

Sabbath gave you good advice on the GFCI and outlet strip. Yes it will work, but you run the risk of a single fault bringing everything in the tank down.

Good logic with the "kid" vs the "statistics". It only takes a second to become a statistic!

No I do not run a ground probe. I know the pros and cons and am comfortable with the situation. When my controller goes online in a few months I will likely have to run one to keep stray current from affecting the probe readings.

FWIW I am NOT an electrician... You don't have to be to know the trade, the code or the best practices and tricks of the trade :)

Sadly, I work around electricians on a daily basis and have found than (like any trade) there are a few good one sprinkled in among a LOT of mediocre and bad ones. Finding a good electrician is like finding a good doctor or good mechanic.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12655100#post12655100 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark426
I am not and electrician but my brother has a large commercial electric company and he refuses to use a "at the outlet GFCI” anymore. I know from my own experience that those “at the outlet GFCI” are as much trouble as help. They are called GFCI receptacles :)

There have been problems of GFCI failures over the years. The current generation of devices is MUCH better. Some of the statistics have been trumped up in order to force the use of ARC FAULT breakers. There is a LOT of money to be had in the market and there is not an ARC FAULT receptacle, so the big panel manufacturers want (and got) AFCI breakers mandated... the whole thing is a statistics scam, but thats another story.

They have quite a short life and are prone to tripping at the worst time. The current generation is much better. This is also the reason that you should use SEVERAL GFCI to feed your tank. I prefer to have EACH critical device on its own GFCI.
[The BEST solution is to have the circuit breaker that feeds the tank replaced with a “circuit breaker GFCI”, they are soooo much more reliable and cost about the same. For most branch circuits, that is great advice. However, it is NOT a good idea for the fish room circuits. It puts all of your "eggs in one basket" so to speak. If you do have a nuisance tripe or a single faulting device, then the whole tank comes down! Your chances are significantly better of you split your tank circuit off into 2-3 (or more) GFCI receptacles and test them regularly.

[Paulairduck]

I just did work at my parents house (remodel). We changed out all the the outlets. The only outlets that were grounded bathrooms, kitchen, laundry room. Bedrooms, living room,Den, Library, maids quarter's, not grouned, Something to think about!:confused:

[BeanAnimal]

It all depends on the age of the home (and/or the date the wiring was done). It also may vary somewhat by geographic location (different areas adopt the codes at different times).

[Esquare]

Ok, now that my mind has been completely turned to mush. J
I would like to second the statements regarding not putting everything on one GFCI circuit breaker. I did, thinking that I was being very responsible, and kept tripping all of my stuff (yes, stuff is a technical term used to refer to a bunch of high priced gadgets). I still use that circuit but have also run another with individual gfci outlets as well.

My question is regarding my Neptune AC3 and the Ground Isolated Serial Connector (Neptune SERIPC9) I had to install to get accurate readings (I think Bean referred to something like this). Will this act as a ground probe?

Thanks for any info.

[nsamuel]

Went yesterday Lowe's and Home depot today to check out what GFCI are available. I found this cool "portable GFCI" made by Shock Buster. You can plug it into a grounded outlet, but it has only one outlet for use. The box did not say anything about "auto reset after power outage" (which i think is important for our purposes. They had another product which is 3 outlet inline GFCI, which has the auto reset feature, but 3 times more expensive. I can plug in 3 things into this (a heater, powerhead and airpump). I am not worried about one fault bringing 3 things down, because if a fault occurs that means i was next to the aquarium. And i can always reset it after a fault. So, it seems like plugging in 3 units into the same GFCI seems like cost saving and viable alternative. The store also had another GFCI made by shock buster that was "multiple outlet". It plugs into one wall outlet and provides 5 outlets all protected by GFCI. This was the cost effective solution, but again the box did not say if this had a "auto reset after power outage" feature, which is most important in my thoughts.

anyone has any of these units in their home ? What do u think ?

[BeanAnimal]

because if a fault occurs that means i was next to the aquarium No a fault can occur in many ways, so can a nuisance trip. You do not have to be next to the aquarium for a fault to occur.

Is spending $20 instead of $100 and losing $3,000 in livestock cost effective? Just something to think about.

Plenty (most) people use a single GFCI to power their aquarium. I just don't like the idea (for reasons already mentioned)

It has also been reported that many of the "cord and plug" type GFCI units are much more prone to nuisance tripping. The evidence is anecdotal but there does appear to be a pattern.

[nsamuel]

Unfortunately, the feature that i consider as important ("auto reset after power outage, when power comes back on") is available only in the "inline, corded" version of this company (shock buster). My research does not show that the 1 outlet version of this product has this needed feature. I have not yet looked into the GFCI receptacles, which would yield me 2 outlets. But then these receptacle types also can be used only for 1 plug, if i follow your logic........ The main purpose of using the GFCI is to protect me so i dont get electrocuted. So, dont i have to be next to the aquarium, to get electrocuted :-) There may be other situations, but do they really concern me ?

I have another plan thats in my mind. If i had one GFCI hooked upto another GFCI (to extend the number of outlets available near the tank).....then would both GFCI trip if i had a fault ? or only the first one in line trips and the one behind it would still stay on ?

[sabbath]

You can plug a 6 plug... Power stip into a GFCI

GFCI also CAN protect you from a fire.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12753026#post12753026 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nsamuel
Unfortunately, the feature that i consider as important ("auto reset after power outage, when power comes back on") is available only in the "inline, corded" version of this company (shock buster). Most GFCIs do not need reset after a power outage. You can always return the product if it does not meet your expectations.

But then these receptacle types also can be used only for 1 plug, if i follow your logic........ I never said that you coult not, or should not plug more than one device into a GFCI. I said that it is a GOOD IDEA to segregate your critical equipment between several GFCIs. :)

The main purpose of using the GFCI is to protect me so i dont get electrocuted. So, dont i have to be next to the aquarium, to get electrocuted :-) There may be other situations, but do they really concern me ? The GFCI will help to protect you. But its operation is not tied to your presence. A faulting piece of equipment or nuisance trip can occur at any time. If you are NOT home, then how would you know? If everything is on one GFCI, then everything will be de-energized (read: dead livestock) when you find the tank.

I have another plan thats in my mind. If i had one GFCI hooked upto another GFCI (to extend the number of outlets available near the tank).....then would both GFCI trip if i had a fault ? or only the first one in line trips and the one behind it would still stay on ? No, you can NOT put GFCIs in series. Strange things will happen (read: the setup will be VERY unpredictable).

Bean

[Saboral]

No the probe is a good thing. Even without a GFCI it can save your life and the lives of your tank inhabitants. I have been shocked by so many other people's setups because they don't have one. I am a journeyman electrician. A setup with a couple of GFCIs would be a great idea. The only problem with a grounding probe is that if a complete circuit is made through the probe the wiring is too small to handle the current for any extended period and my start a fire, however if this is a residential outlet with a 15 or 20amp breaker I garunttee it will trip the breaker before the wire lights up. I've been there and my grounding probe has stopped me from getting shocked countless times.

[BeanAnimal]

A ground probe without the use of GFCIs introduces a significant danger that would otherwise not be present. If you use a ground probe, you really must use GFCIs on all tank (and/or nearby) equipment.

[BeanAnimal]

however if this is a residential outlet with a 15 or 20amp breaker I garunttee it will trip the breaker before the wire lights up I do not agree at all. Electrical fires start every day without a breaker tripping. Will the ground probe wire glow red hot before the breaker trips? Not likely, but anything else that is partially grounded may.

[nsamuel]

Bean - thanks for your replies. I understand your statements. If there is a GFCI, and if all the tank equipment and surrounding electricals are plugged into GFCI one way or another, then i dont see how a shock can occur. I am inclined not to use a probe after much reading, because there is as much pros as cons to using a probe. Without a probe, there is no way for the leaking current to complete a circuit (the GFCI would trip). There are coincidence reported linking stray electromagnetic currents affecting fish - but this is somewhat like humans getting ailments because of cell phone usage close to the ear. Not enough proof for conclusive statements, as of now.

So, i guess no one has the GFCI from Shock Buster. I will buy and try and report, as this is the brand thats being sold by many online outlets.

[salmon alley]

No, you can NOT put GFCIs in series. Strange things will happen (read: the setup will be VERY unpredictable).

So, if I'm tapping off a 20A circuit which currently feeds ONLY a GFCI receptacle in a bathroom, I need to tap into the circuit BEFORE that receptacle and NOT as a load from that outlet, right?


PS- sorry about the mini-hijack of your thread...:rollface:

[sabbath]

Yes, Unless you want the tank to be protected by the Bathroom GFCI. Do not add any more GFCI after that.

Go to the Line side of it and then you can add a GFCI or more at the tank. Just wire all of then to the Line sides of the outlet.