Brightwell KoralColor....

[Lagger]

anyone using this??? Seems interesting, helps support zooxanthellae indirectly thru biochromes, whatever that means.I guess a little goes a long way....by description:

Provides numerous elements important to the formation of various biochromes (biological pigments), complex molecules that give coloration to plant and animal cells through their selective color-absorption and -reflection characteristics.

Formulated specifically to provide trace quantities of elements for gradual incorporation into, and formation of, biochromes known to occur within zooxanthellae, such as chlorophylls a and c, beta carotene, and xanthophylls.

Does not influence population density of zooxanthellae, which would put the overall health and survival of the host organism in a precarious situation.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


I haven't had the chance to play around with Brightwell's product entries in the "ULNS, Probiotic, Bacterioplankton, Carbon Dosing Derby" that's emerging in the North American marketplace yet, but hope to do so in the next few weeks. What currently fascinates me about Brightwell's (... and their competitors ...) tactics is the shift in language that they're using to promote their products. For example ...

...Provides numerous elements important to the formation of various biochromes (biological pigments), complex molecules that give coloration to plant and animal cells through their selective color-absorption and -reflection characteristics. ... What they're saying is that their product provides precursors for pigments produced in the host coral's cells. I'd really like to see the hard data that backs this up.

... Formulated specifically to provide trace quantities of elements for gradual incorporation into, and formation of, biochromes known to occur within zooxanthellae, such as chlorophylls a and c, beta carotene, and xanthophylls. ... What they're saying is that their product provides precursors for pigments produced in zooxanthellae, and that their product persists in the water column in a useable form. I'd really like to see the hard data that backs this up.

... Does not influence population density of zooxanthellae, which would put the overall health and survival of the host organism in a precarious situation. ... Not only does this "take a shot" at one of the "core concepts" of one of their competitor's product lines (which claims to lower zooxanthellae density in order to get at enhanced pigmentation perception & expression), but it also implies that enhanced chromoprotein synthesis can "over-ride" zooxanthellae density (as a way to get at "better colors") ... and ... it implies that their product does not contain stuff like N, P, Fe, or amino acids (all of which would in fact have the potential to influence zooxanthellae density).

Fascinating stuff, to say the least. It will be interesting to see if this kind of clash between the various manufacturers involving this kind of next-generation set of buzzwords, and techno-jargon masquerading as information, will present any useful information or insights to hobbyists.

JMO ... your mileage will vary ... ;)



While the notion that providing exogenous (developed or originating outside of the coral) precursor elements & compounds can directly influence chromoprotein biosynthesis, and/or chromatophore formation has a nice warm, fuzzy intuitive feel to it ... it is perhaps worth noting that the hard science documenting that this is in fact taking place has yet to emerge into free-access English-language cyberspace. Interestingly enough, some of the current literature suggests the opposite (see Mobley & Gleason, 2003 ... and others).

Indeed, the current literature suggests that the presence of host release factors (... as Chris Jury has so eloquently noted ...), flow dynamics (... as Jake Adams has so eloquently noted ...) and the characteristics of the light striking the surface of the coral (... as more RC users than can easily be named in a single post have so eloquently noted ...) are all MUCH more important than any "coral color" proprietary product that can be dosed into a system's water column. Even so, the ever increasing anecdotal data set strongly suggests that such products do in fact have potential utility in some circumstances. The more we understand the underlying metabolic fundamentals, the better we'll be able to assess these kinds of products.





JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

[Lagger]

Good read Meso. Quite interesting indeed. Im a bit skeptical of the vast number of cure-in-a-bottles Brightwell has been putting out recently. Far too many in my mind. I guess like Kent, old habits die hard :lol:

still wouldnt mind trying this 'type' of method. Could be quite beneficial! :)

[GSMguy]

lagger you already use prodibio that is this "type" of method

[Lagger]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12678513#post12678513 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
lagger you already use prodibio that is this "type" of method

Umm......not really, read here:

Not only does this "take a shot" at one of the "core concepts" of one of their competitor's product lines (which claims to lower zooxanthellae density in order to get at enhanced pigmentation perception & expression), but it also implies that enhanced chromoprotein synthesis can "over-ride" zooxanthellae density (as a way to get at "better colors") ... and ... it implies that their product does not contain stuff like N, P, Fe, or amino acids (all of which would in fact have the potential to influence zooxanthellae density).

I lump zeo/prodibio/ultralith all into the "competitors product lines" that suppsoedly reduces zooxanthellae......whereas this Koralcolor (along with birghtwell's other products) is supposed to increase zooxanthallae production, the way Mesocosm explains it.....that is if Im reading it right :confused:

[GSMguy]

mesocosims post read skeptical at best, he is expanding on and drawing conclusions based on what the manufacturer is claiming.

"buzzwords, and techno-jargon masquerading as information"

[mesocosm]

Ooops ... never mind. :lol:

[GSMguy]

I believe that these products work but i wish my belief was not "faith based"

here is some of the various jargon i could find

From KZ
It’s a liquid secondary biological facilitator for elements


a liquid filter medium. We created it to boost specific metabolic processes occurring in an aquarium. It will remove yellowing compounds and duff

Prodibio
These bacteria perform complementary functions, with each strain taking over where its predecessor left off


has been perfected with the assistance of fish-keeping experts, from products which are highly effective in starting off the larvae of crustaceans, molluscs and bivalves. Experience shows that in a properly equipped aquarium, adding a high quality and balanced food, encourages the development of corals and microscopic plant-life. This also reduces nitrates and phosphates by naturally feeding the anaerobic bacteria of live rocks


polyp labs


Working with a Canadian biotechnology firm, we have manufactured a custom blend of bacterial strains with concentrations of over 80 billion cells/mL. In their planktonic state, these bacteria serve as a highly nutritious food source for corals and zooplankton.


We have developed a unique fusion of organic carbon sources enriched with amino acids...The process is very gentle and it will not have any detrimental effects on your existing corals.



RF-Plus is a water-stable mixture of liquid and solid coral foods ...
RF-Plus has been engineered to be free of nitrates and phosphates.


Fauna Marin

UltraLith is a specially formulated Zeolite for reduction of nutrient concentrations in marine aquaria. This Zeolite provides nitrate- and ammonium-reducing bacteria an ideal environment. By using a composition of different Zeolites, carefully selected for their specific physical and chemical properties, this filter medium will reduce nutrient concentrations fast and effectively.


FM does list contents for their products though

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12687981#post12687981 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
Ooops ... never mind. :lol:


?
why did you get rid of it, i found it insightful.

[snorvich]

Well I use a couple of KZ products and I do see improved growth and coloration (sponge power for growth, coral vitalizer for color).

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12689191#post12689191 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Well I use a couple of KZ products and I do see improved growth and coloration (sponge power for growth, coral vitalizer for color).

how long on the sponge power?

some have reported initially they get increased growth and then it tapers down after a while, i dose it but cant say for sure that it increases growth as my system is still new.

[kkris]

Meso and GSM. Call Chris Brightwell. He's very accessable. I've had a few conversations with him. With mystery products coming in fom Germany, Italy, France and Canada, maybe it's time to give something made in the USA a try. Yes, it's a large product line, but that's the only way to compete in today's market. I plan on starting a few next week. Talk to the man!

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12690036#post12690036 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kkris
... Call Chris Brightwell. He's very accessable. ... Talk to the man! I have, but I've spent more time talking with his west coast sales rep ... good folks, lots of enthusiasm, great dealer support with deep & rich marine ornamental industry experience.

JMO ... :thumbsup:



Information: The result of processing, manipulating and organizing data in a way that adds to the knowledge of the receiver. In other words, it is the context in which data is taken (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information).


My disappointment is grounded in the gap between their belief that they're giving detailed explanations of what is in their products & how their products are functioning in marine aquaria, versus what they're actually saying in their product descriptions (JMO ... your mileage will vary). In our conversations, one of their central claims is that they're describing their system in far richer detail than any of their competitors. I simply don't see it ... I want to, but I don't. Indeed, from my hardly definitive perspective, the only meaningful difference between the "information" provided by Brightwell Aquatics, Elos, Fauna Marin, Korallen Zucht, Polyp Labs, and Prodibio is the way that they're using ... buzzwords, and techno-jargon masquerading as information.

Ever notice how all of these companies claim to have performed "extensive" research on their products? Ever notice how not even a tiny, proprietary-safe fragment of this sort of documentation ever manages to find its way into public view? Ever notice how the existence of a device called a "camera" seems to have been forgotten while they were "extensively researching" the functionality of their products?

What does this tell us, campers? ... :lol:



I've been hopeful about the quality of information Brightwell Aquatics would choose to release about these kinds of products since its emergence into cyberspace in early 2007. They have a real opportunity to distinguish themselves from their competition, but my hopes are fading. For those who haven't been paying close attention since then, the "research" section of Brightwell Aquatics' website has been "coming soon" ... for over a year now.

What does this tell us, campers? ... :lol:



The "information" provided by the various manufacturers & distributors of these kinds of products neither enriches the knowledge of hobbyists, nor details the context within which their products function. What we're getting instead is the kind of techno-jargon generalities that could be gleened from almost any decent high school biology or chemistry textbook published in North America after 1990.

Substituting "biochrome" for "pigment" ... are they kidding? :lol:



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12690036#post12690036 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kkris
... With mystery products coming in fom Germany, Italy, France and Canada, maybe it's time to give something made in the USA a try. ... While I'm not of the opinion that there's anything even remotely mysterious about these product lines ... fair enough. It will be interesting to see where Brightwell's price points finally stabilize. Even so, once their zeolithic material gets landed and available for distribution, I'll be quite interested in assessing the quality of information Mr. Brightwell chooses to release regarding how it functions with his Reef Biofuel, MicroBacter7, Potassion, and KoralColor products.

I haven't given up hope just yet ... :D



JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

[Zedar]

Well I purchased and dosed Koral color today. Ill tell ya what i think in a few weeks :)

[Insainoreefer]

Any word on this product yet?

[CHUBAKAH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12899055#post12899055 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
Well I purchased and dosed Koral color today. Ill tell ya what i think in a few weeks :)
Do you have any results as of yet to report?

[Zedar]

I dont see any difference with or without it.

I dosed it religiously for over a month. Haven't dosed it since. Maybe in a different system? In mine i see no advantage.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13485431#post13485431 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
... Maybe in a different system? ... Interesting conjecture ... :thumbsup:

Is there something "missing" in systems where these types of products show no effect? Do you have any opinion about the characteristics of a system that would facilitate the functioning of these types of products (... beyond the prerequisite flow, lighting, chemical stability, skimmer, and husbandry variables)?


TIA
:D

[Lagger]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13485431#post13485431 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
I dont see any difference with or without it.

I dosed it religiously for over a month. Haven't dosed it since. Maybe in a different system? In mine i see no advantage.

Zedar, thanks for responding on this :thumbsup:

[kkris]

This product works very well for me. However... I use it in conjuction with Brightwells bacteria and carbon source as well as other products such as neozeo.

[CHUBAKAH]

I am also doing the complete Neozeo system, and I just started the Koralcolor yesterday. I'll report back in a few weeks with my results.

[Zedar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13486511#post13486511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
Greetings All !


Interesting conjecture ... :thumbsup:

Is there something "missing" in systems where these types of products show no effect? Do you have any opinion about the characteristics of a system that would facilitate the functioning of these types of products (... beyond the prerequisite flow, lighting, chemical stability, skimmer, and husbandry variables)?


TIA
:D


Is there something missing? It appears there is. What that something is? Wish i knew.

I wouldn't consider my corals to be the most colorful. Hence the reason for trying this product. So its not like it isn't working because the corals were already "as good as it gets" :)

Maybe Kkis can offer some insight? It appears to help in his system.

Ken, any ideas?

[kkris]

John,
How long did you dose for and at what amount?

[Zedar]

I dosed the recommended amount for a month, I saw no change. After stopping, i saw no change.
In fact I stopped dosing everything but brightwell K+, mag, alk and calc.

[ReefEnabler]

I wonder if only tanks that were already nutrient starved would see the benefit from these products. not just organic nutrients but inorganic nutrients as well.

that would explain why people who commit to the full deal (be it zeovit or neozeo) see a benefit from the coral enhancing stuff.

This guy (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14364669#post14364669) is claiming that the Koral Color brought color back to his faded corals.

Perhaps his tank was starved of some basic trace element?


Since everybody uses different salt mixes, and different salt mixes all contain different levels of trace elements, I think stuff like this will always be a challenge to asses via anecdotal evidence without knowing whats what.

Different tanks could both be stripped of different trace elements and both show signs of too-low nutrients, while the same additive might not help both tanks overcome this deficiency. And consider different animals might use different trace elements at a different rate etc....

[stanlalee]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14364812#post14364812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefEnabler


This guy (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14364669#post14364669) is claiming that the Koral Color brought color back to his faded corals.

Perhaps his tank was starved of some basic trace element?


I'm not sure if your talking about the same guy I'm reffering to but he said he used kolorcoral AND seachem reef plus. I've had that exact experience with just reef plus alone (color and growth picked up dramatically within 3-4wks of use) so I dont know if he should credit one or the other. I began to use brightwell amino acids eventually with the reef plus and I "think" it works but I cant be certain.

[ReefEnabler]

good point, he did also seem to use seachem reef plus.

[silverado_4x4]

These are the kind of products that are extremely difficult to tell if they really"work". To do a true test you would need a well established "mature" reef with water paraments that stayed precisely within ideal NSW values, proper flow, filtration, etc etc, and ONLY dose one of these types of products during the test.

Will they work for some and get a noticeable difference, I'm sure, but who's to say that they haven't changed other things or started dosing other things during this time period. Honestly the price point on these products is very reasonable in the grand scheme of things when talking about reef related purchases, and if it peaks some folks interests in fine tuning their water parameters and paying closer attention to things then all the better. Might end up being a placebo effect and just simply make them feel good about the purchase, but whos to say that's a bad thing either?

Just my .02

[Peter Eichler]

Somehow we've regressed to 1990 when it comes to aquarium supplements. Actually it's a hell of a lot worse since there are more companies making supplements. The desire of people to dump unknown crap with unlikely claims into their tanks is astonishing to me.

[miwoodar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14378367#post14378367 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Somehow we've regressed to 1990 when it comes to aquarium supplements. Actually it's a hell of a lot worse since there are more companies making supplements. The desire of people to dump unknown crap with unlikely claims into their tanks is astonishing to me.

I had an entire milk crate full of supplements within a year after I began reefing...many to the deteriment of my inhabitants. I kept looking for the 'real' miracle solution. I no longer believe in such. I've dosed VSV with good results and think that my tank somewhat improved from dosing an AA source. With this said, nothing replaces judicious maintenance of the big three....calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium. Nothing beyond that is required IMO. How many stories have we read about potassium overdoses in the last year alone (and that's something that *can* be measured)!

[Canarygirl]

I haven't read any stories of potassium overdoses. Where are those stories? Sounds interesting....

[miwoodar]

Examples are buried in the carbon dosing threads wherein people were guess-timating how much to add then overdoing it. Mind you, these are folks (IIRC) that weren't using test kits to begin with, they were just going off of hunches...and that kind of gets us back to the point of Peter's post.

[MrPike]

I haven't read any stories of potassium overdoses. Where are those stories? Sounds interesting....

Its going to be hard to directly attribute a coral loss, or a tank crash, to excess potassium. The reason being is we are unable to reliably test for it.

[Canarygirl]

I've been following the carbon dosing threads and don't remember reading of any tank problems from overdosing potassium. I personally had a couple corals RTN on me after my very first dose of a small amount of potassium chloride (iHerb from the health food store).

Its going to be hard to directly attribute a coral loss, or a tank crash, to excess potassium. The reason being is we are unable to reliably test for it.

The Korallen-Zucht K+ test is pretty easy to use and has given me reliable results. It takes a few times of using it to get the hang of reading the results but after that, it's easy.

[miwoodar]

Canary - you're full zeo IIRC...that kind of changes the situation since you can find many zeo folks who have had documented low K numbers.

Anedoctal evidence on products is abundant. I'll sell you a bottle of Purple Up. It made my coralline algae grow like crazy! ;)

Apologies for getting this thread off track. I don't know anything about Brightwell KoralColor and I'm not trying to make any statements for or against it. If I gave it a shot I would hold everything else as constant as possible, take plenty of pictures, then decide for myself whether or not it was a worthy additive for my particular system.

[MrPike]

The Korallen-Zucht K+ test is pretty easy to use and has given me reliable results. It takes a few times of using it to get the hang of reading the results but after that, it's easy.

I must admit that people do seem to be able to control potassium levels with these kits, however, it just seems suspicious to me that the marine aquarium industry seems to be the only place where you can measure potassium in seawater with a relatively simple test. Searching online, it involves multiple steps of running saltwater through filters to remove xyz element so it doesn't interfere. Reefkeeping seems especially vulnerable to snake oil products, and I think these test kits may be in that category.

[Canarygirl]

my apologies too for taking this thread off track, but I have to say that I think there are lots of good and effective supplements out there. I have been wary of using supplements that might build up over time without having a way out of the system. One of those things I avoided for that reason is iodide (rightly or wrongly). I am really glad I changed my mind on that one, after reading a couple of threads on RC about it. I started dosing it and my polyp extension is so much better! At least 50% better, almost across the board.

I haven't tried Koral Color but I've been watching this thread to see what other people's experiences have been like.

[cabrego]

I just started using Koralcolor yesterday and my corals look amazing overnight!!! J/K of course!

Can someone describe what the liquid solution of Koralcolor looked like? Mine was in an unsealed bottle and looked like water, that is why I ask. I am paranoid when I get products like that.

[CHUBAKAH]

I just started using Koralcolor yesterday and my corals look amazing overnight!!! J/K of course!

Can someone describe what the liquid solution of Koralcolor looked like? Mine was in an unsealed bottle and looked like water, that is why I ask. I am paranoid when I get products like that.
Yes it looks like water, and is colorless.

[smp]

Greetings All !


I haven't had the chance to play around with Brightwell's product entries in the "ULNS, Probiotic, Bacterioplankton, Carbon Dosing Derby" that's emerging in the North American marketplace yet, but hope to do so in the next few weeks. What currently fascinates me about Brightwell's (... and their competitors ...) tactics is the shift in language that they're using to promote their products. For example ...

What they're saying is that their product provides precursors for pigments produced in the host coral's cells. I'd really like to see the hard data that backs this up.

What they're saying is that their product provides precursors for pigments produced in zooxanthellae, and that their product persists in the water column in a useable form. I'd really like to see the hard data that backs this up.

Not only does this "take a shot" at one of the "core concepts" of one of their competitor's product lines (which claims to lower zooxanthellae density in order to get at enhanced pigmentation perception & expression), but it also implies that enhanced chromoprotein synthesis can "over-ride" zooxanthellae density (as a way to get at "better colors") ... and ... it implies that their product does not contain stuff like N, P, Fe, or amino acids (all of which would in fact have the potential to influence zooxanthellae density).

Fascinating stuff, to say the least. It will be interesting to see if this kind of clash between the various manufacturers involving this kind of next-generation set of buzzwords, and techno-jargon masquerading as information, will present any useful information or insights to hobbyists.

JMO ... your mileage will vary ... ;)



While the notion that providing exogenous (developed or originating outside of the coral) precursor elements & compounds can directly influence chromoprotein biosynthesis, and/or chromatophore formation has a nice warm, fuzzy intuitive feel to it ... it is perhaps worth noting that the hard science documenting that this is in fact taking place has yet to emerge into free-access English-language cyberspace. Interestingly enough, some of the current literature suggests the opposite (see Mobley & Gleason, 2003 ... and others).

Indeed, the current literature suggests that the presence of host release factors (... as Chris Jury has so eloquently noted ...), flow dynamics (... as Jake Adams has so eloquently noted ...) and the characteristics of the light striking the surface of the coral (... as more RC users than can easily be named in a single post have so eloquently noted ...) are all MUCH more important than any "coral color" proprietary product that can be dosed into a system's water column. Even so, the ever increasing anecdotal data set strongly suggests that such products do in fact have potential utility in some circumstances. The more we understand the underlying metabolic fundamentals, the better we'll be able to assess these kinds of products.





JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

This is the most refreshing post I've read in years on this or any other reefing forum. Thanks.

I agree 100%, especially with your comments about buzzwords and heresay. "Reefer A uses this stuff and his tank is awesome!!!" etc. Reading the various carbon threads is painful, the so called "experts" seem to me to be kids who've gleaned most of their info from other threads on other forums ... rinse and repeat. "Yup, I've been using XYZ for the past 2 months and I think I have a good understanding of it" .. OH REALLY?!!! I don't think anyone does. We still don't understand the chemical and biological process, we just have guesses and intuition .. and yes, to some degree, results.

The "documentation" on the labels reminds me of those laundry detergent ads that have animations of the "super cleaning micro bubbles in action" .. oh really? That's not science, that's marketing!!!

That all being said, I do think there is something to the whole carbon thing. However, I'm not so sure that anyone really understands it nearly as well as some of these discussions would make one think.

I just started dosing vodka, at a low rate and I will keep it low and slow. Any changes in my tank will be a result of this and nothing else as I am not introducing any other changes into my mix. My tank has been set up for 2.5 years with little to no change in husbandry thus far. Water changes maybe 3 times a year. If I see improvement in the next few months I will be convinced. Any changes, really. I have my hopes, but I know that they are just hopes. Like faith, can't be quantified or fully understood :)

[lucasabao]

i'm dosing the coral color since 6 months ago......the results are very visible given you have phosphates and nitrates at 0 and strong illumination (i have 400W giesemann spectra hanging over the tank, aqua Medic 13000K bulbs and el. ballast).

i could notice an incredible improve of the pinks and the purples.....unbeliveble:smokin:

[fishguy86]

Ive been using the koral color for 8 months now on over 1500 gallons of asst reef systems ,, and using most of the brightwell line in addition .. my corals have never looked beter!