less flow is better

[bridun22ajl]

I was over in the LPS forum yesterday and someone posted a Japanese website and i was looking at some of the pictures. http://www.splash-sea.co.jp/tank/index.html

If you look at the picture of this tank, it looks like all there is a maxijet pump and possibly a return pump. Do you guys have any explanation for this?

http://www.splash-sea.co.jp/tank/image/tank02.jpg

[dvanacker]

How the heck did he manage to get every last bit of coraline out of the tank.........hmmm. Appearance can be tricky. Random high flow is always a good thing when talking about SPS. Some do overdo it but it doesnt hurt .....low flow will be bad for the tank.

No offence to this statement by why does everybody new to the hobby want to reinvent the wheel.?

[GSMguy]

they plumb Maxi jets in behind the rocks using clear tubing, the pumps are just well hidden...

also dont assume he grew those corals, guys with deep pockets can afford to just buy a couple boxes of colonies and stick them in the tank then he can take pictures and show off his pseudo skills.

[bridun22ajl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12697773#post12697773 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dvanacker


No offence to this statement by why does everybody new to the hobby want to reinvent the wheel.?

i wasnt trying to reinvent anything. I saw a picture and tried to start a discussion on it.

did anyone look at the other tanks they have on the link i posted? look at the lighting!

[dvanacker]

The tittle to the thread is "low flow is better" is that a statement or a question? Ok I understand your not trying to reinvent anything and trying to start a dicussion. That's what we are doing.

Did you notice the cords going down by the overflow?

Also are you talking about the spot lights that they use over in Japan.? Interesting concept I have seen pictures quite a few times but I don't think you can get them here in north america.

[bridun22ajl]

yes i see the cords by the overflow. i wish we could tell what it was for but say it is another maxijet, thats still not very much flow in that tank. but like gsmguy said, we dont know how long it has been set up for and whatnot...

[firefish2020]

IMO this is a newly set up tank. If you note there is no coraline on the overflow or the MaxiJet. The right side of the tank shows a bit of green algae starting up. To me this tank looks to be right out of cycle (if that) and those corals were just put in there. It's also not that big of a tank so several MJ1200s hidden within the structure would not be out of the question but only as a short term solution. As the coral would grow so would the need for more flow. However that said , we are talking about the country that gave us Bonsais, they have a bit of an obsession with balance so maybe they have figured something out that we will eventually understand in a few years.

[matan_grin]

sure looks like a new tank that the corals has found there way in it just for the photos.

[carman9941]

the cords are for 3 wave boxes

[bridun22ajl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12698480#post12698480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carman9941
the cords are for 3 wave boxes

care to share how you know this?

[GSMguy]

:lol:

[glassbox-design]

Old photo but there are other pumps in there just hidden. Many Japanese reefers are now using vortech's, tunze's and eco-mods.

[twon8]

those look like large wild colonies recently put into that tank, not small frags that have grown into their surroundings.

more flow is way better.

[happyclam]

I'm new to the hobby so I'm probably wrong, but I do not think that is a newly set up system. I saw the pockets and algal growth in the sanbed, which I thought takes time to happen. Also, about the flow, what if he/she has a really powerful external pump, so that strong powerheads are not needed? Maybe the outlets are behind the rockwork?

[Mahlhavoc]

I couldn't keep coraline from growing on plastic for a month in my tank, let alone the whole time it would take to grow colonies of coral that size. This is a new tank. Sand is seeded of course from the rock, this tank could be a couple weeks old or so which would explain exchange bubbles in the sandbed.

Regardless, the tank does not appear to have enough flow from the picture, but appearances can be decieving.

[kau_cinta_ku]

who is to say there isn't a closed loop hidden somewhere in the rockwork also?

even so, it is hard to see but it also looks like those corals arn't even encrusted onto the rockwork yet. so again makes me think these corals were just recently placed in the tank.

[glassbox-design]

Keep you calcium at 380-400 and clean your tank and coralline is not a problem. We have none in our display. Clean your pumps, and they look like new ;)

Many high caliber Japanese SPS tanks either have internal loops or closed loops with piping hidden. For this tank new or old, good flow along with water quality is a must.

[Casshern]

they could have just prepped the shot..

[fishfanatic06]

Looks like the tank is fairly new, and he just threw a bunch of colonies in there.

[trueblackpercula]

Look again a the picture, the sand bed is still new and ther eis hair algea gorwing on the rock work. I would say that the tank is newly setup and i would like to see an updated picture of that tank. looks nice and I would say more flow is a better way to go.
Michael

[Spooky208]

I agree with this being a new tank but he probably uses some of these
http://www.petstore.com/ps_ViewItem-SearchStr--action-view-idProduct-TZ1551-idCategory-FIPHAC-category-Tunze_Turbelle_Stream_Deco_Rock_Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies_Powerheads_Accessoris-vendor--tab-2.html

[nava405]

i think it's just a "turbo power head" like all the japanese cars with small motor :D.

you want a lot flow for sps for sure. If you want to try, then try it, wait till something goes wrong, and you know it's time to put more flow.

[liveforphysics]

Those corals were definitely not grown in that tank.

Like many of the Japanese tanks we see, the corals are purchased as grown colonies, then discarded as they brown or die, and replaced by new ones.

Also, he could have massive water motion in that tank. He has at least 3 devices behind that rock work, and who knows how powerful they may be.


Water motion is life for SPS. It's more critical than lighting, and rarely are we ever able to provide as much as they want.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[fwbfirearms]

Well look at the selection of growth patterns of the corals. The branched are together, the table-top ones are together, the tall ones are together, the chunky ones together. Surely a
setup"

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12702828#post12702828 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
Like many of the Japanese tanks we see, the corals are purchased as grown colonies, then discarded as they brown or die, and replaced by new ones.


Dude, why would you make a comment like that? Where do you get this information. Its like saying all Americans are fat and eat cheeseburgers 3 times a day. Please dont make stereotypical and unfounded comments like that.

[glassbox-design]

nevermind...

[liveforphysics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12703179#post12703179 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Dude, why would you make a comment like that? Where do you get this information. Its like saying all Americans are fat and eat cheeseburgers 3 times a day. Please dont make stereotypical and unfounded comments like that.


I have walked through the fish/coral markets in Taiwan. They are flooded with Japanese buyers to the extent that most all purchases being made for aquarium animals are from Japaneses. They have plastic troughs out on tables with a single air stone in them. Many troughs contain crocea clams, which are sold by the half-dozen at a time to people who buy them to eat them. They have vendors who sell variety's of clownish, some with an anemone, just sitting out in little glass fishbowls like goldfish at carnivals. In these places, small heads of coral, most commonly small acro tables were set in the troughs with an air bubbler. People would shop early in the morning for them, because through out the day, things started not looking or smelling quite so good. Since the most colorful species of things were always the ones that sold, thee were many signs of dyed anemones and softcorals, and sometimes stoneys.

People bought the corals like we would purchase flowers in a flower market. The sellers also handled it like a flowermarket, by tossing away the items that didn't sell into the amazingly foul smelling fish market garbage collector bins on wheels that are pushed around.

I never saw any CITES related enforcement or paperwork in these areas. I realize that Japan has laws and good enforcement of laws regarding the items that are brought back into it's country, but I'm also not naive enough to think that all the Japanese buyers are there to be stocking aquariums in Taiwan.

There is a big market for people to simply buy a ready-stocked aquarium all setup and professionally aquascaped, along with a weekly service contract. When animals become unpleasing to see, they are replaced. It operates much the way our doctors office/lawyers office aquarium servicing works. They establish a service contract, and when a fish isn't looking so good anymore, he is replaced.


The relation to those corals to that tank is one which appears to involve mounting with putty in a nicely done aquascaping layout.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12705573#post12705573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
I have walked through the fish/coral markets in Taiwan. They are flooded with Japanese buyers to the extent that most all purchases being made for aquarium animals are from Japaneses. They have plastic troughs out on tables with a single air stone in them. Many troughs contain crocea clams, which are sold by the half-dozen at a time to people who buy them to eat them. They have vendors who sell variety's of clownish, some with an anemone, just sitting out in little glass fishbowls like goldfish at carnivals. In these places, small heads of coral, most commonly small acro tables were set in the troughs with an air bubbler. People would shop early in the morning for them, because through out the day, things started not looking or smelling quite so good. Since the most colorful species of things were always the ones that sold, thee were many signs of dyed anemones and softcorals, and sometimes stoneys.

People bought the corals like we would purchase flowers in a flower market. The sellers also handled it like a flowermarket, by tossing away the items that didn't sell into the amazingly foul smelling fish market garbage collector bins on wheels that are pushed around.

I never saw any CITES related enforcement or paperwork in these areas. I realize that Japan has laws and good enforcement of laws regarding the items that are brought back into it's country, but I'm also not naive enough to think that all the Japanese buyers are there to be stocking aquariums in Taiwan.

There is a big market for people to simply buy a ready-stocked aquarium all setup and professionally aquascaped, along with a weekly service contract. When animals become unpleasing to see, they are replaced. It operates much the way our doctors office/lawyers office aquarium servicing works. They establish a service contract, and when a fish isn't looking so good anymore, he is replaced.


The relation to those corals to that tank is one which appears to involve mounting with putty in a nicely done aquascaping layout.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

I dont debate that you have seen a situation like this. But it is a huge mis statemnt to say that "many of the Japanese tanks are stocked this way". That is a false, setreotypical statment.

I have been to the county fair where they givbe away green iguanas if you land a ping pong ball in a vase. Does that mean that many American iguana owner simply win their iguanas at the fair. Heck, I know of many aquarist who buy fish, and when the die, simply replace them quickly, and with barely a concern. Does that mean that american simply buy fish, kill them quickly, and replace them free will? I hope you can see my point.

[liveforphysics]

jmaneyapanda-

You are right, it's wrong to stereotype. I've seen some fantastic Japanese tanks that were absolutely marvels of design with thriving corals that appeared to be grown out in the tank. I've seen pictures of some of the coolest DIY designs from some Japanese websites. Every country has some people keeping exceptional tanks.

The pay-the-money and sign the contract and have your fully stocked SPS tank setup in your livingroom by a crew of pros approach is more widely available in some places than others.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12708664#post12708664 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liveforphysics
jmaneyapanda-

You are right, it's wrong to stereotype. I've seen some fantastic Japanese tanks that were absolutely marvels of design with thriving corals that appeared to be grown out in the tank. I've seen pictures of some of the coolest DIY designs from some Japanese websites. Every country has some people keeping exceptional tanks.

The pay-the-money and sign the contract and have your fully stocked SPS tank setup in your livingroom by a crew of pros approach is more widely available in some places than others.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

No doubt. I have seen some asian tanks that turn my stomach disgust me.
http://www1.hksaltfish.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=142797&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=112

This tank disgusts me. But it is this tank, not the country, race of owner, or anything else that irritates me.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12705946#post12705946 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Does that mean that american simply buy fish, kill them quickly, and replace them free will? I hope you can see my point.

Most of them do.


SOmetimes stereotypes are correct. Conciencious hobbyists are the exception, not the rule.

[hyperfocal]

Also, the poster stated "many", not "most" or "all."

I see nothing offensively stereotypical about the statement. One could easily make the corresponding "Many Americans are fat cheeseburger-eaters" and be factually correct. Many are.

For the record, I'm a fat cheeseburger-eating Canadian :P

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710075#post12710075 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Most of them do.


SOmetimes stereotypes are correct. Conciencious hobbyists are the exception, not the rule.

I agree with part and disagree with part.

I believe stereotyopes are NEVER correct. They apply one trait to an entire group. There are always exceptions to the rule. Yes, aquarium hobbyists (not necessarily Americans) do quickly kill fish and replace them. But do ALL of them? Of course not. The stereotype states that they all do. thats why its flawed.

I agree, though, it foten appears that consciencious aquarist too often appear to be the except, rather than rule.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710250#post12710250 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hyperfocal


I see nothing offensively stereotypical about the statement. One could easily make the corresponding "Many Americans are fat cheeseburger-eaters" and be factually correct. Many are.



Please provide me with these facts. If you are going to make that claim, back it up. Otherwise, its a stereotype.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710250#post12710250 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hyperfocal
Also, the poster stated "many", not "most" or "all."

Exactly.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710278#post12710278 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Please provide me with these facts. If you are going to make that claim, back it up. Otherwise, its a stereotype.

" The most widely disseminated CDC research statistics on American obesity tell us that 63% of adult Americans have a Body Mass Index (BMI) in excess of 25.0 and are therefore overweight; more than a quarter surpass 30.0, having been declared obese. And perhaps the most riveting statistics concern obesity in kids: research shows that childhood obesity has more than tripled over the past two decades."


First google hit on searching for "American obesity stats"

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710652#post12710652 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
" The most widely disseminated CDC research statistics on American obesity tell us that 63% of adult Americans have a Body Mass Index (BMI) in excess of 25.0 and are therefore overweight; more than a quarter surpass 30.0, having been declared obese. And perhaps the most riveting statistics concern obesity in kids: research shows that childhood obesity has more than tripled over the past two decades."


First google hit on searching for "American obesity stats"

Great stat. Now show me one that says "Many Americans are fat cheeseburger-eaters". :D You cant, because there isnt one. Dont make leaps of faith tto say that obesity equals a causitive action.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711338#post12711338 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Great stat. Now show me one that says "Many Americans are fat cheeseburger-eaters". :D You cant, because there isnt one. Dont make leaps of faith tto say that obesity equals a causitive action.

you are absolutely ridiculous.



Between the former stats, and this one,

http://quote.morningstar.com/Quote/Quote.aspx?ticker=MCD


I think its pretty definitive that MANY AMERICANS ARE FAT CHEESEBURGER-EATERS.

[manderx]

looks like a pretty small tank. 1 powerhead plus return might be enough honestly. can't tell if the cords are in the tank or behind the tank (maybe from lights). can't even tell if that's a solid background or the wall behind it though. seems like as nice as the aquascaping is, he'd have routed the cords along the overflow if they were in the tank. he could also have had some powerheads on the front blowing towards the coral that he removed for the pic.

i have a friend with a 120 who does amazing with practically no flow. big return pump but it's killed by a scwd, and a pair of 1200s on a wavemaster.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=907920

even more amazing is no calcium reactor or 2-part, just a trashcan of kalk. everything except the humilis in the top right is grown from tiny frags, clam was <3" when he got it.

i accepted a while ago that "for every rule out there, someone with a better tank than you is breaking it".

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711458#post12711458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
you are absolutely ridiculous.



Between the former stats, and this one,

http://quote.morningstar.com/Quote/Quote.aspx?ticker=MCD


I think its pretty definitive that MANY AMERICANS ARE FAT CHEESEBURGER-EATERS.

HA! Thats really funny coming from you! I have read your posts, and you are one of the most purposefully belligerant and argumentative posters on this forum! But, I'm ridiculous!? HA!

Listen, the guy said many Japanese tanks are operated by discarding corals and replacing them. That is a stereotypical comment, based on one experience in TAIWAN!!! I compared it to the ludicrous stereotype that "Americans are fat cheeseburger eaters". You honestly dont think thats stereotypical? You honestly think you can provide data to prove that this is FACT!? And I'm ridiculous??!! Go ahead and provide me little twists and turns of stats about obese americans. But, as I claimed, my (absurd) statment cannot be proven as fact! You can speculate all you want, but it cant! Until it becomes factually proven, it is a stereotypical comment. AOL stockholders make a lot of money too. Does that mean Americans are fat because of AOL? Leaps of faith, my friend.

[Canadian]

Tell me what's wrong with stereotypes when used appropriately? Any knowledgeable cultural anthropologist will contend that stereotypes are necessary in order to facilitate a rapid synthesis of traits when the situation necessitates it.

Read the book "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell to discover how thought experiments performed ad nauseum by pseudo intellects who insist upon espousing nonsense for the sake of mental masturbation only seem to cloud the issue. In a clinical setting I see this all the time. And it seems to be occurring with greater frequency here on RC . . .

And if you're going to argue semantics at least be consistent. In other threads you've insisted upon arguing semantics about the definition of "elitism" and yet you've butchered the definition of "stereotype". The original poster wrote "I see nothing offensively stereotypical about the statement. One could easily make the corresponding "Many Americans are fat cheeseburger-eaters" and be factually correct. Many are.

And you replied

"Please provide me with these facts. If you are going to make that claim, back it up. Otherwise, its a stereotype."

You jumped to the causal link. The poster never stated or implied a causal link. And in fact the poster's statement is a FACT. Go to McDonalds and observe the number of overweight or obese people eating cheeseburgers. You will most certainly see many Americans who are, in FACT, fat cheesburger-eaters.

You might want to check your soap box - I think it's getting wobbly.

[Akerfeldt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710278#post12710278 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Please provide me with these facts. If you are going to make that claim, back it up. Otherwise, its a stereotype.

Many Japanese tanks ARE setup that way, with colonies placed in tanks strictly for great aesthetics, pictures taken, so on so forth. Whoever said that THAT tank was setup that way may be wrong to generalize that stereotype to that particular tank, but it does happen, nonetheless.

Seriously, it's time to get off your soapbox and back on topic.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12713818#post12713818 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I compared it to the ludicrous stereotype that "Americans are fat cheeseburger eaters". You honestly dont think thats stereotypical? Y

Whether or not its stereotypical, its correct.

Thats the point here, whether or not you chose to believe it.



MANY AMERICANS ARE FAT. Are all of them? No. Are a significant portion? YES. check the statistics for obesity.

[glassbox-design]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714356#post12714356 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Akerfeldt
Many Japanese tanks ARE setup that way with colonies placed in tanks strictly for great aesthetics, pictures taken, so on so forth.
Besides the same old photos that float around the web, I am unaware of others. I have plenty of photos of the same thing here in the U.S. and in europe; InterZoo is a prime example. How many of those corals were discarded afterwards?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714356#post12714356 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Akerfeldt
but it does happen, nonetheless.

Correct, and it happens everywhere. Let us just worry about what goes on in our back yard. These are false statements that put many excellent and dedicated japanese reefers in a bad light. There are no more than ~10 Japanese Tanks that have had images floating across RC for years.


Go to your average LFS and hear the horror stories of SPS corals from customers. The difference is those tanks were not photographed as they weren't attractive to begin with :p

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714201#post12714201 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Canadian
Tell me what's wrong with stereotypes when used appropriately? Any knowledgeable cultural anthropologist will contend that stereotypes are necessary in order to facilitate a rapid synthesis of traits when the situation necessitates it.

Read the book "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell to discover how thought experiments performed ad nauseum by pseudo intellects who insist upon espousing nonsense for the sake of mental masturbation only seem to cloud the issue. In a clinical setting I see this all the time. And it seems to be occurring with greater frequency here on RC . . .

And if you're going to argue semantics at least be consistent. In other threads you've insisted upon arguing semantics about the definition of "elitism" and yet you've butchered the definition of "stereotype". The original poster wrote "I see nothing offensively stereotypical about the statement. One could easily make the corresponding "Many Americans are fat cheeseburger-eaters" and be factually correct. Many are.

And you replied

"Please provide me with these facts. If you are going to make that claim, back it up. Otherwise, its a stereotype."

You jumped to the causal link. The poster never stated or implied a causal link. And in fact the poster's statement is a FACT. Go to McDonalds and observe the number of overweight or obese people eating cheeseburgers. You will most certainly see many Americans who are, in FACT, fat cheesburger-eaters.

You might want to check your soap box - I think it's getting wobbly.

I have no idea what half of this means. I guess I just cant keep up. If everyone here is fine with the statemnet that "many of the Japanese tanks we see, the corals are purchased as grown colonies, then discarded as they brown or die, and replaced by new ones" as a factual statement, and not an incredulous one, with very negative implications to a ethnic community as a whole, I guess I am in the wrong place.

My apologies. Good Luck.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714521#post12714521 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Whether or not its stereotypical, its correct.

Thats the point here, whether or not you chose to believe it.



MANY AMERICANS ARE FAT. Are all of them? No. Are a significant portion? YES. check the statistics for obesity.

I would have to disagree. I do not think the defintion of "factual statments" and "stereotypical statments" are interchangeable and equitable. But, as mentioned, I cant keep up. I find offense in someone criticizing an entire culture based on one picture, and one trip through another cultures market. Others here don't. I dont want to run with that crowd. Good luck.

[RichConley]

Jmaneypanda, I suggest you look up the word "Many". It does not mean what you think it does.


I find offense in someone criticizing an entire culture based on one picture, and one trip through another cultures market.

Again, no one criticized an entire culture. Saying "many" does not mean all. Look the word up.

[fwbfirearms]

That tank (fish tank) sure turned this forum into a tank(think tank)

[dzhuo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714692#post12714692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I have no idea what half of this means. I guess I just cant keep up. If everyone here is fine with the statemnet that "many of the Japanese tanks we see, the corals are purchased as grown colonies, then discarded as they brown or die, and replaced by new ones" as a factual statement, and not an incredulous one, with very negative implications to a ethnic community as a whole, I guess I am in the wrong place.

My apologies. Good Luck.

jmaneyapanda,
i would stop the arguing. this is how the usual discussion goes involving japanese tanks and style of reefing in general. i have seen many of such threads come and go over the years. there was one such tank (and imo, much prettier than the one pictured here :) floating around in RC a few years back. when that tank was first surfaced, pretty much everyone here thought it was only set up in order to take a few pictures because it was too picture perfect. similar to this tank, that tank almost has no coralline at all anywhere. all 4 sides of the tank were spotless and free of coralline. no one here believe a mature tank like that can be so 'clean' so the conclusion was that the tank is only set up to take picture and impress people.

it was later found out what most people believed were completely false and a sequence of pictures showing the tank mature over the years were discovered.

i simply think japanese reefers take the aesthetic aspect of the hobby more diligent than most of us here. just think that some people don't even think a mature tank free of coralline is possible. :)

why argue? :)

[liveforphysics]

adj.
man·y (mĕn'ç)

Being one of a large indefinite number; numerous:
Ex. many a child; many another day.

If you say, "All americans are fat cheeseburger eaters." It's a fallacy, and offensive.

If you say, "Many americans are fat cheeseburger eaters."
This statement is an obvious surety.
I take no offense to this statement, as I am not a member of the fat cheeseburger eating group. (at least not most of the time :P)


Japanese reefkeepers who do not take the pay-the-money-and get-a-brand-new-SPS-Reef" setup in there homes the next day option should hopefully not be offended, as they are not included in that "many" group.


I'm truely sorry for causing so much drama with a careless statement.

My applogies to everyone who had to wade through it.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[traveller7]

This is the SPS Forum, take the drivel to another board.

Thanks.