What's so great about a Bubble King?

[Akrite]

There seems to be more talk about these Bubble Kings skimmers over the last year, so I want to know what makes them better than any other skimmer? Why so much hype over the last year, did they just come out? And what is that tray in the middle with he holes in it for?

Do they have a website where I can get more info from? And whats the difference between Mini, SuperMarin and Deluxe?

[edwing206]

People really love the low heat pump and great build quality. I don't own one so can't really say much else. And that tray with the holes is called a bubble diffuser.

[GSMguy]

they are just ultra efficent very well designed and very high build quality

lots of air very little power,

the mini is the budget in sump space restriction skimmer

the Supermarin is an in sump skimmer that is the newest in their product line, it has 2 cones in it to follow the industry trend of cone shapes.

the deluxe are the original bubble kings, lots of adjustment, internal or external all recirculating design

there is a Bubble king skimmer club here in this forum that has lots of pictures and info.

[KaniRyde]

Bubble diffuser what does that mean. Does the bubble differ make the bubbles smaller?

[Akrite]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12698938#post12698938 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KaniRyde
Bubble diffuser what does that mean. Does the bubble differ make the bubbles smaller?

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12698947#post12698947 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Akrite



bubble diffuser=bubble plate All it is, is a way to cut down on internal turbulence inside the skimmer body, it slows the water down and allows the bubbles to rise with less turbulence.


the Bubble plate and ultra efficient pond pumps turned into skimmer pumps are both Bubble king innovations that the whole industry has now decided to adopt.

[Akrite]

So is Bubble King a new company? Do they cost so much because they are from overseas?

[j tavares]

For that price most of us could have another tank and cabinet stand!

[sarar-m-rn]

what do they actually cost? is there a wbsite for the company?

[j tavares]

Check out Premium Aquatics site You will see what I mean by EXPENSIVE and I have 25 yrs plus with Marine Tanks I still cannot believe the prices on some skimmers I guess some people feel they are status symbols; to each his own!

[Akrite]

the Bubble plate and ultra efficient pond pumps turned into skimmer pumps are both Bubble king innovations that the whole industry has now decided to adopt.

Is this considered new technology?

[Akrite]

Thanks for the website.

[JRaquatics]

Royal Exclusive is the company that makes Bubble king skimmers. They are one of the best skimmers on the market today. Lots of R&D go into higher end skimers which leads to a higher market cost for a very efficient product.

[j tavares]

I do not doubt that but when you consider that alot of these akimmers do not always operate consistently from tank to tank and having tried at great cost and personal expense almost every concievable skimmer out ther from Euroreef to ETS I believe all do not need to cost that much and when you look back over the years of people running beautiful reef tanks on air driven skimmers without the mods or finding the right pump or that sweet spot I cannot believe how the Hardware has taken over rather than knowledge, and aquarium husbandry but again to each his own.

[hammmerhead]

I wish I could justify the cost of one. Heck, I couldnt afford a new impeller for a RD pump.....

[JRaquatics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12699610#post12699610 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hammmerhead
I wish I could justify the cost of one. Heck, I couldnt afford a new impeller for a RD pump.....

You and me both. But we can dream can't we?

[Reeftank3]

I have to say after receiving a BM there is nothing that I have seen that can pull the nog like these.

It cleans up what my Deltec and H & S miss.

If I didn't get mine for $800 then I would have never even dreamed about one but I have to say the build is excellent, the pumps are custom wrapped Laguna pumps, the design is fabulous, and despite the fact they are a fortune - It is tough to beat this product.

J. Taveres hits the nail on the head - Knowledge is power - keep on the top of aquarium husbandry, and enjoy your reef. There are many great skimmers that will do 95% of the job and half the cost.

It is like a car - many get the job done and some are more efficient than others but dang it is sure nice if you can afford it.

[Akrite]

Reeftank3 what model BM did you get?

[Creetin]

Build qiality is second to none, The R and D is second to none, Theres a reason every skimmer company copys them.

[kau_cinta_ku]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12699684#post12699684 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reeftank3
I have to say after receiving a BM there is nothing that I have seen that can pull the nog like these.

I may be lost but are you talking about a BM = bubble master or a BK = bubble king?

I have seen Travis's BK on his 280 gal. tank and all I can say is wow. very quiet, lots of gross nog. and if I had the money I would try one. but I doubt I will ever have that much extra money. well I guess I could sell my complete reef tank and buy a skimmer. then I can say I have one but nothing to use it on anymore:D

[Reeftank3]

CrabbbbbPPPP!!!!!

I mis-typed. I have a BK which I believe is a bubbleking 250. I have not been able to get the exact because I bought it second hand but new.

How can i get my photo to the thread? I am pretty knew.

[tacocat]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12699586#post12699586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by j tavares
I do not doubt that but when you consider that alot of these akimmers do not always operate consistently from tank to tank and having tried at great cost and personal expense almost every concievable skimmer out ther from Euroreef to ETS I believe all do not need to cost that much and when you look back over the years of people running beautiful reef tanks on air driven skimmers without the mods or finding the right pump or that sweet spot I cannot believe how the Hardware has taken over rather than knowledge, and aquarium husbandry but again to each his own.

Yup hardware has taken over knowledge, and more importantly understanding in a major way, you can see it on every reef forum. Some of the questions asked flat out frieghten me.

That being said, the BK skimmers are VERY expensive, and to blindly buy one thinking it's going to fix your band husbandry is a bad idea. Still I think they are worth the money for a few reasons.

1. They are extremely energy efficeint. This is important to users out in CA. A beckett skimmer works great and I used to have one, but with an electical operating cost of $60 or up, it adds up.

2. They are silent. To some, like me, this is golden.

3. They are easy to maintain, and they fit underneath stands. My old beckett skimmers were cool, but thumbscrews suck and the really good ones are too tall.

Further, many of the more expensive BKs are built for larger tanks, that need more expensive/larger skimmers to begin with.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12699509#post12699509 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
Royal Exclusive is the company that makes Bubble king skimmers. They are one of the best skimmers on the market today. Lots of R&D go into higher end skimers which leads to a higher market cost for a very efficient product.

R&D? Its a $125 pump with a new volute on it, and the design isn't really all that different than some of the $200 skimmers out there.


Its not R&D that causes teh price to be so high. The prices are so high because they are a botique product.

[Reeftank3]

I have to disagree. There is a thread on here somewhere that Klaus has been responding to from RE. These pumps are custom wound. There is a detail as well for DIY volutes for the Lagunas. Several members are trying to get the air volumes up as high as his but I believe they have been unable to match it. As for the design, there are many copies coming but you would have to see one in person to see the quality he has built into them. I am sure they will nog off any equivalent skimmer.

[kau_cinta_ku]

here ya go reeftank3
[photopost]

[snorvich]

Well, I have three (Deluxe 300 internal) and would not trade. I also have an extra RD pump that I use for cycling into the mix so I can take the pump out for cleaning in vinegar. Very low heat and power. Silent, which for me is a big deal.

But I have heard really good things about ATB and Volcanoes so I am not sure BK is the best any longer.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12700766#post12700766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reeftank3
I have to disagree. There is a thread on here somewhere that Klaus has been responding to from RE. These pumps are custom wound. There is a detail as well for DIY volutes for the Lagunas. Several members are trying to get the air volumes up as high as his but I believe they have been unable to match it. As for the design, there are many copies coming but you would have to see one in person to see the quality he has built into them. I am sure they will nog off any equivalent skimmer.


Reeftank, the RDs ARE custom wound, but a Laguna with a bigger volute will pull almost exactly the same numbers. Several of the lagunas pull more air at less electricity.

BK is expesnive because everything is custom milled, not molded, the highest quality components are used, and they are a boutique product. If they sold for 2/3 the price, they probably wouldn't sell as many because they wouldn't have that "elite" feeling.

[ksed]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12699863#post12699863 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Creetin
Build qiality is second to none, The R and D is second to none, Theres a reason every skimmer company copys them.

You just nailed it on the head
second to none

[Akrite]

So what everyone is saying is that the best thing about the BK is the red dragon pump?

[Akrite]

And the fact that they are custom milled, not molded, the highest quality components are used, and they are a boutique product.

[DrBegalke]

The website for BK skimmers, the translation to English is not very good:

http://english.royal-exclusiv.de/index2.htm

[sfuzer]

I have had a BK for about 6 months now and would not trade it for anything. While getting over the price tag was tough at first, once installed and skimming like carzy, I was sold. The one thing I will mention that I have not seen others state is how quite it is. Not only does it skim like crazy, but it is dead silent.

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12700374#post12700374 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
R&D? Its a $125 pump with a new volute on it, and the design isn't really all that different than some of the $200 skimmers out there.


Its not R&D that causes teh price to be so high. The prices are so high because they are a botique product.

the pumps can be copied cheaper for sure like the octo pro 300

they do seem to do a fair bit of R&D AT RE for a boutique company RD pumps, bubble plates, RD2 DC controllable skimmer pumps, Hastellalloy (sp?) meshwheel.

also klaus has is testing a switching laminar flow tank that might be interesting.

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12700374#post12700374 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
R&D? Its a $125 pump with a new volute on it, and the design isn't really all that different than some of the $200 skimmers out there.


Its not R&D that causes teh price to be so high. The prices are so high because they are a botique product.

:thumbsup:

Finally someone in this thread knows what they are talking about.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12698786#post12698786 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Akrite
There seems to be more talk about these Bubble Kings skimmers over the last year, so I want to know what makes them better than any other skimmer? Why so much hype over the last year, did they just come out? And what is that tray in the middle with he holes in it for?

Do they have a website where I can get more info from? And whats the difference between Mini, SuperMarin and Deluxe? They are not better than any other skimmers. At their price point the are really poor performers, IMO.

A reeflo 250 @ $1500 would out perform a BK skimmer that cost $2000+.

[Creetin]

And you owned a reeflo 250 and a bubbleking to make that assesment? You want to elaborate where your information comes from besides another reeflo owner thats never owned a BK?
LOL Too funny all the haters with the attitudes that like to patrol the threads here and bash BK. In my opinion reeflo should not even be compared to a BK. Thats like comparing a daewoo to a mercedes.

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12707190#post12707190 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Creetin
And you owned a reeflo 250 and a bubbleking to make that assesment? You want to elaborate where your information comes from besides another reeflo owner thats never owned a BK?
LOL Too funny all the haters with the attitudes that like to patrol the threads here and bash BK. In my opinion reeflo should not even be compared to a BK. Thats like comparing a daewoo to a mercedes. be right back.



I am about sick of these stuck up BK, ATB owners that think god himself made their "perfect skimmer". If you don't act like it the second coming of christ, then you are a "hater."


EDIT:
Anyway....

here my information:

ORCA 250 vs BK 300 external

Which skimmer perform better ?


Jeremy B. from PremiumAquatics.com respond to this thread...you know the place that sells BK...

The ORCA 250 will perform better than a BK 300 INT or EXT. The ORCA 250 would be more comparable to the 400 INT or EXT actually, although the 400 would perform a little better. HTH!

Now this is when you go....so how does he know?....he must be a hater, LOL....AMIRITE?

I have ran both of the skimmers at length, side by side, on the same system. The Reeflo just flat out pulls more and harder than the BK300's. The foam is more gentle, more stable head, smaller bubbles and thicker foam production. I am by no means saying the 300's are a poor choice, or a bad skimmer. They really rock in my opinion. The ORCA 250 just happens to be better is all. They are somewhat similar size and similar air flow, but the BK does pull less power though. In the end, the Reeflo ORCA 250 is one of the best performing skimmers on the market in that size class, if not the best. Then if you throw price in the mix, there really isn't anything out there that will compete with it.



Now just in case you think I made this up:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1232429

[hawk66]

I have been considering either a BK 300 ext, ATB, or Reefflow 250 for a 500g system. I have read enough to know that all three are excellent skimmers. Along with performance and build quality, very important to me is noise level. So which one is the quietest? Also which one is the easiest to clean?

[uhuru]

USC of course people are going to be proud of their skimmers if they perform well, and they will take offense if you call them "poor performers" without ever owning one. I don't see Jeremy saying anywhere that it is a poor performer.

[USC-fan]

What ATB? A bk300 couldn't handle 500gal, so that is off the list.

Reeflo is the one I would buy.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12707505#post12707505 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uhuru
USC of course people are going to be proud of their skimmers if they perform well, and they will take offense if you call them "poor performers" without ever owning one. I don't see Jeremy saying anywhere that it is a poor performer. funny how you single out just that one part of my post.

Maybe if I would had said...BK are poor performers...you would have a valid point.

[hawk66]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12707517#post12707517 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
What ATB? A bk300 couldn't handle 500gal, so that is off the list.

Reeflo is the one I would buy.


BK300 ext is rated the same as Reeflo 250, both 300-800g. ATB large cone is rated 796g. They are all comparable in size. BK300 and ATB large cone use half the watts as Reeflo 250. I understand these are manufactures ratings and may not be realistic. One customer review on PremiumAquatics mentioned the Reeflo being difficult to break down for a thorough cleaning. After reading further about BK it seems pretty unanimous that it runs extremely quiet. I haven't found much about ATB or Reeflo in regards to noise level.

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12707770#post12707770 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hawk66
BK300 ext is rated the same as Reeflo 250, both 300-800g. ATB large cone is rated 796g. They are all comparable in size. BK300 and ATB large cone use half the watts as Reeflo 250. I understand these are manufactures ratings and may not be realistic. One customer review on PremiumAquatics mentioned the Reeflo being difficult to break down for a thorough cleaning. After reading further about BK it seems pretty unanimous that it runs extremely quiet. I haven't found much about ATB or Reeflo in regards to noise level. these ratings mean nothing.

[Creetin]

Us stuck up BK owners are really just bying them so i can say i own a BK and you dont.. ;) Thats a good assesment. LOL
You want to know what i bought a BK for???
1 No hastle performance, I wanted something that performs all the time, and was not tempermental. Set and forget it!!
2 Build quality.
3 Tuning Adjustments, Bk deluxe had what i wanted!
4 DEAD QUIET and energy efficient!
5 Easy to clean! You will find if you ever have the pleasure of owning a bk that they are very easy to clean and maintain.
The mentality around this equipment forum is tiring. I for for one see thread after thread of a handfull of people pushing thier opinions here as a bible sermon.
I'll take my underachiving skimmer anyday.

[sjm817]

Creetin brings up some good points. Raw skimming performance is not the ONLY thing people consider choosing a skimmer. I dont own a BK or a Reeflo skimmer (but would). I dont doubt that they are both fabulous products, and all I have seen in the threads say they are. However, I would venture to say a BK is much more energy efficient, and a lot quieter than a Reeflo. BK also has both internal and external skimmers, where Reeflo is external only.

[hawk66]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12708652#post12708652 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
these ratings mean nothing.

Agreed, but neither do the retailers opinions, such as the one you listed. They have their own reasons for pushing one brand over the next. That is why people on this board seek out "actual" users of specific equipment for real world opinions.

[Reeftank3]

[QUOTE]
I have ran both of the skimmers at length, side by side, on the same system. The Reeflo just flat out pulls more and harder than the BK300's. The foam is more gentle, more stable head, smaller bubbles and thicker foam production. I am by no means saying the 300's are a poor choice, or a bad skimmer. They really rock in my opinion. The ORCA 250 just happens to be better is all. They are somewhat similar size and similar air flow, but the BK does pull less power though. In the end, the Reeflo ORCA 250 is one of the best performing skimmers on the market in that size class, if not the best. Then if you throw price in the mix, there really isn't anything out there that will compete with it.

I think I am quoting the quote!:rolleye1: OF AN OPINION WITHOUT FACT

So my question to J is running them side by side, on the same system, etc. What are the facts of the research? Did he measure volume of water and airflow with a meter?

The topic is about Greatness of the BK.

It seems that the foam view is quite subjective and can be based on set-up or lack there of. Even as simple as individual location on the same system. Unless the inputs were from exactly the same intake, etc. these skimmers can all be FINE tuned and it would sure be nice to see a measurement - nog, air/water, db instead of a marketing opinion.

$$ factor - Not to bash any LFS - We know there is a $$$ price that people just can't afford so we can tell folks a cheaper style may be better and move more product, etc.

There are a whole lot of design features that come out of R & D to get a product to market. I run a H & S and BK. For me cost was each $800 as i bought both discounted greatly. Price being equal the BK is exactly what the Creetin states.

The Greatness is almost more of a heartache of some to bash a company. Let us see the TEST results to gain an objective perspective. This whole thread is going around about opinions. Has anyone ever done a sound test? :rolleyes:

I know that Klaus has highly detailed facts to demonstrate the "pulling" capacity of his units. Maybe we could see something like that and I can't see that just because some unit is the highest $$ it holds the Greatness but I assure you that his product is solid and worth every $$$. I actually think they could be priced a bit higher.

:bum:

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12708782#post12708782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817
Creetin brings up some good points. Raw skimming performance is not the ONLY thing people consider choosing a skimmer. I dont own a BK or a Reeflo skimmer (but would). I dont doubt that they are both fabulous products, and all I have seen in the threads say they are. However, I would venture to say a BK is much more energy efficient, and a lot quieter than a Reeflo. BK also has both internal and external skimmers, where Reeflo is external only.

all good points, also the BK at 1/10th the watts can be run in sump and not add heat to the water the reeflo while a great performer is external only and the pumps run 130w

all things considered both great skimmers, USC fan, are you are aware that the reeflo has a couple issues? like it overflows while your not home and the power goes out and turns back on. also the neck upgrade that most users do now.

the meshmods for the reeflo are just starting and that should be interesting.

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710130#post12710130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reeftank3
[QUOTE]

$$ factor - Not to bash any LFS - We know there is a $$$ price that people just can't afford so we can tell folks a cheaper style may be better and move more product, etc.



not to bash Jeremy but he WAS pushing the REEFLO very hard when he made that post, he was also the only one selling them...

and the BK had smaller margins and higher prices then, since then things have changed with the BK price and distributorships.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710188#post12710188 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
all good points, also the BK at 1/10th the watts can be run in sump and not add heat to the water the reeflo while a great performer is external only and the pumps run 130w

Bubble KIng 300ext 58w $2200, 2000l/h air
Reeflo Orca 250 120w $849, 2000l/h air


How long does it take for 62w to make up $1351?


Also, the bubble king is a water cooled pump. THat means ALL 58w is heat in the tank. The dart is air cooled, so much less of the heat goes in the tank. I bet that, at worst, the Reeflo is equal to the BK in terms of heat.



(for me, at $.15/kwh, it takes 16 years)

[sjm817]

I thought the Reeflo 250 was more like $1250?

[RichConley]

OOps, my bad, the 200 is $849. SO, change that to 12 or so years.

[JRaquatics]

To add to RichConleys' post the Reeflos are upgradable to produce even high performance.

Upgrade cup- better contact/dwell time, allows for higher feed rates, even better control and overall better skimmer performance.

upgrade wheel- almost 2x the air, lower wattage, cooler motor running, finer bubbles, etc.

[Reeftank3]

How much water gets mixed with 2000l on these bad boys?

16 years is a long time for a pump I would think. I would expect additional $$$ for a new pump or two during that time.

46 db of noise blairing out of a BK.

.15/KWH will surely not be the same in 16 years.

I promise you the if "Elite" is the only feeling you get from a BK and they lower the price as someone stated earlier these skimmers would be flying off the shelves. I think the BK club is pretty proud of their quality and therfore would have no problem with the costs associated with one of the best. Imagine lowering the price on a Porshe. Would people stop buying them because now they are to cheap for their elite flavor? Hmmmm. Great thread but what is the heart of it is Why these are great skimmers. It all goes back to earlier when Creetin summed it up.

Wonder if Jeremy can chime in to give his test results?

[Creetin]

Thats over $30 a month where i live just in the watt differance.
I dunno about you but i would rather have a BK than pay the e company. ;)

[Creetin]

By the way i pay more than triple what rich pays in electric!!!!

[hawk66]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710808#post12710808 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Bubble KIng 300ext 58w $2200, 2000l/h air
Reeflo Orca 250 120w $849, 2000l/h air


How long does it take for 62w to make up $1351?


Also, the bubble king is a water cooled pump. THat means ALL 58w is heat in the tank. The dart is air cooled, so much less of the heat goes in the tank. I bet that, at worst, the Reeflo is equal to the BK in terms of heat.



(for me, at $.15/kwh, it takes 16 years)
You are attributing the total price difference to energy savings alone. There are the other differences as Creetin has mentioned. Maybe the differences in build quality, materials, ease of cleaning, noise, company track record, distributor support are not in your bottom line equation, but some of those qualities may be important enough to others to pay the price difference.

[snorvich]

Well the bottom line is that people will spend their money as they see fit and choose a set of benefits that they feel appropriate to their costs. Generally people defend what they have; they also tend to buy what they can afford.

Personally, I prefer in sump if for no other reason that I cannot live with ANY overflows. Although all my stuff is in the basement, noise is important to me as well. Do the new conical skimmers appeal to me? Absolutely. But I like what I have and I am certainly not going to compete on who has the most or best nog.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711031#post12711031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reeftank3
How much water gets mixed with 2000l on these bad boys?
. Imagine lowering the price on a Porshe. Would people stop buying them because now they are to cheap for their elite flavor?

No, but if you lowered the price of a BMW, etc, yeah, I think they'd sell less.

There'd be none of that "I drive a..." appeal. They'd just be any other sports sedan. There are $18K sports sedans that are nicer than a 325i, yet the 325i still sells well. WHy? Because its a bmw, and theres a certain social status attached to that.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711037#post12711037 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Creetin
Thats over $30 a month where i live just in the watt differance.
I dunno about you but i would rather have a BK than pay the e company. ;)



???? $30/month? You pay $.70/kwh? Holy crap.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711176#post12711176 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hawk66
You are attributing the total price difference to energy savings alone. There are the other differences as Creetin has mentioned. Maybe the differences in build quality, materials, ease of cleaning, noise, company track record, distributor support are not in your bottom line equation, but some of those qualities may be important enough to others to pay the price difference.

I'm attributing all the savings to electrical because the post I quoted intoned that in the long run the BK would be cheaper.


As to quality, BK has a history of its pumps not working properly on 110v AC.


That always seems to get ignored though.

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12708670#post12708670 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Creetin
Us stuck up BK owners are really just bying them so i can say i own a BK and you dont.. ;) Thats a good assesment. LOL
You want to know what i bought a BK for???
1 No hastle performance, I wanted something that performs all the time, and was not tempermental. Set and forget it!!
2 Build quality.
3 Tuning Adjustments, Bk deluxe had what i wanted!
4 DEAD QUIET and energy efficient!
5 Easy to clean! You will find if you ever have the pleasure of owning a bk that they are very easy to clean and maintain.
The mentality around this equipment forum is tiring. I for for one see thread after thread of a handfull of people pushing thier opinions here as a bible sermon.
I'll take my underachiving skimmer anyday. There is no "us"... It is you!

I couldn't careless why you brought a BK and nor did I ask.

Strange how you come to this thread demanding information from my last post and then totally over look it.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12710210#post12710210 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
not to bash Jeremy but he WAS pushing the REEFLO very hard when he made that post, he was also the only one selling them...

and the BK had smaller margins and higher prices then, since then things have changed with the BK price and distributorships. NOt sure if any of tht is true but....

When comparing just the specs, it EASY to see the reeflo 250 just destroying the BK 300 INT. It wouldn't even be close.

reeflo 250
bigger skimmer
better design[recirc]
bigger pump
better dwell time
more air

Also the reeflo is support by a small mod community that will increase it performance over time.[ex. improve neck design] Plus it uses a standard pump that can be replace cheaply with better versions.[gold version or whatever it was called]

With the BK people are scared to mod it because replacement part cost just so much.

It would be a lot more even to compare the BK 400 EXT and the reeflo 250.

[tbone28]

Yet another BK vs the *world* skimmer debate. All these threads say the exact same thing.

I've owned Euroreefs for 8 years, and recently went over to a BK SM250.

Does my BK skim better than my ER did? Yes, but I wouldn't say it skims $1000 worth better.

So why buy a BK? I think Creetin said it perfectly. There are many features that people look for in a skimmer besides just skimming performance. If that is *all* you care about, there are MANY skimmers on the market that will skim very well.

For me, I had 2 additional requirements:
1) low energy usage
2) silence

I live in CA. In my area, the power company determines a *baseline* usage - it doesn't matter how big your family is (nor do they care when I called them). They *tell you* how much power your household should use. If you exceed that, they add surcharges which increase in percentage the more you surpass your baseline. I've seen 300% surcharges!!

Also, my tank is in the family room, and all equipment goes underneath the tank, so silence is a must.

I analogize buying skimmers to buying cars. When you get into the higher-end lines, most people buy the higher-end product for *other* features (creature comforts, build quality, name, whatever).

Do we *need* high end cars/skimmers? No. It's more of a *want*

Part of life is deciding where you want to spend your disposable income.

[Dejavu]

I think that tbone and creetin both make very go points. I too chose to get a Bk for the same reasons. I addition to what they have already said an interanal skimmer was a must for me. I also didn't want to buy something that I had to mod to make it work right. After see a few BK in action and a few reeflo's; my mind was made.

The BK owner that I talked too, all raved about the comstomer service too. I have never meet a BK onwer who wasn't happy. I can't say the same for reeflo.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711693#post12711693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dejavu
I think that tbone and creetin both make very go points. I too chose to get a Bk for the same reasons. I addition to what they have already said an interanal skimmer was a must for me. I also didn't want to buy something that I had to mod to make it work right. After see a few BK in action and a few reeflo's; my mind was made.

Thats wonderful, and I'm glad you like your skimmer.



My point here is, you can't say its performance, or having to mod, etc, because there are PLENTY of skimmers that do all those things.


BK 300 INT :

2000l/h air, 12" body, 25" tall, 58w, $2100

OctopusExtreme 300 (w/ pinwheel, not mesh, STOCK)

2000l/h, 12" body, 25" tall, 60w, $535


Both very similar designs, similar parameters, and I bet not unsimilar performance. Yes, the BK is nicer looking. But both are cast acrylic, both are well built, and neither will break unless you kick them across the room. The octopus has the advantage in that if a pump blows, you're out $130 for a new sicce, not out $900 for a rebadged laguna.



Its fine that you want to spend your discretionary income on something as amourphous as 'quality', and thats totally your right, but most bubbleking owners i've dealt with seem to feel that their skimmers outperform everything by such a wide margin that it alone justifies the cost, when that is nowhere near to the truth.

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711794#post12711794 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Thats wonderful, and I'm glad you like your skimmer.



My point here is, you can't say its performance, or having to mod, etc, because there are PLENTY of skimmers that do all those things.


BK 300 INT :

2000l/h air, 12" body, 25" tall, 58w, $2100

OctopusExtreme 300 (w/ pinwheel, not mesh, STOCK)

2000l/h, 12" body, 25" tall, 60w, $535


Both very similar designs, similar parameters, and I bet not unsimilar performance. Yes, the BK is nicer looking. But both are cast acrylic, both are well built, and neither will break unless you kick them across the room. The octopus has the advantage in that if a pump blows, you're out $130 for a new sicce, not out $900 for a rebadged laguna.



Its fine that you want to spend your discretionary income on something as amorphous as 'quality', and thats totally your right, but most bubbleking owners i've dealt with seem to feel that their skimmers outperform everything by such a wide margin that it alone justifies the cost, when that is nowhere near to the truth. You have really hit the nail on the head here. This is true not only for BK owners but now ATB owners. It was like this for years with deltec owners also. Soon some new "high-end", really just high price, skimmer will come along with some new gimmick that will "boost performance" and there will be a new group on the forum.



To keep with the trend of this thread.....

Its like you drive a Porshe and think you are the fastest car on the road.

[Jim_S]

:lmao:

Budget savy vs Budget busters :lol:

The debate will never end.

You guys get tired of people with highend skimmers thinking their "boutique" skimmers are the best, well maybe highend owners get tired of you guys thinking your "garage modded" skimmers are the best. "just because you spent the money doens't mean your skimmers great" is the typical attitude. Well, "just because you didn't spend the money" doesn't make yours better either.

So you see, it will not change. There will always be those who spend the money on nice stuff and those who choose not to.

And for what its worth, all your bickering didn't help. Looks like the OP bought a Deltec!!!! Go get you crucifix guys :lol:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1406520

See, some people don't base decisions strictly on price. Some people like stuff that looks cool and has some elite status to it. It helps me justify why I go to work everyday and bust my hump. Its so I can play just as hard as I work :)

[tbone28]

Thanks, Jim - I, for sure, never have thought or made any post saying that "my boutique skimmer" is the best, better, or whatever.

As I stated, I come across these threads periodcially. The debate is the same, and I always say basically the same thing. It's very interesting that the *bashers* always ignore my posts and go back to posting *specs*.

[Jim_S]

Yup, I've never once seen you post that T :p

I was actually surprised to see you even post here.

One thing I have noticed, is that in the large tank forum people are much more accepting of buying high end equipment, and debates in that forum don't involve alot of the "budget savy" crew that spend time in this forum. The debates often times have nothing to do with money ;) I spend most of my time there now :)

[hawk66]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711794#post12711794 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Thats wonderful, and I'm glad you like your skimmer.



My point here is, you can't say its performance, or having to mod, etc, because there are PLENTY of skimmers that do all those things.


BK 300 INT :

2000l/h air, 12" body, 25" tall, 58w, $2100

OctopusExtreme 300 (w/ pinwheel, not mesh, STOCK)

2000l/h, 12" body, 25" tall, 60w, $535


Both very similar designs, similar parameters, and I bet not unsimilar performance. Yes, the BK is nicer looking. But both are cast acrylic, both are well built, and neither will break unless you kick them across the room. The octopus has the advantage in that if a pump blows, you're out $130 for a new sicce, not out $900 for a rebadged laguna.



Its fine that you want to spend your discretionary income on something as amourphous as 'quality', and thats totally your right, but most bubbleking owners i've dealt with seem to feel that their skimmers outperform everything by such a wide margin that it alone justifies the cost, when that is nowhere near to the truth.
I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just looking for info. How does the Octo Extreme or Reeflo compare to BK 300 in noise and ease of cleaning? For me there is more to skimmer performance than just nog, which has been stated endlessly that several skimmers on todays market are capable of doing more than well enough. It's more from an operational (cleaning, noise, ease of adjustment, consistency, plug n play, etc) point of view that I put value on.

[kdblove_99]

I'm not one to believe more $$ means better. Alot of times it might.

Also i dont see Tbone on here saying BK is the only way to go. quite oppsite, He in many threads has said his BK does not skim 1K better than his ER. If he wants to spend $2k for a BK why does or should it bother people so much???

Seems like there is a lot of Skimmer envy.

[tbone28]

Thanks, Davey. My point exactly. Several people have PM'ed me asking me if a "BK is worth it". I've said everytime, No it's not, if you're just looking at skimming performance, I was willing to pay more for it for the above-mentioned qualities. Do I still think it's too expensive? Yes, but I had to pay that much to get one.

I don't understand why people get all worked up on how *other* people spend their money. As stated, everyone needs to decide how they want to spend their discretionary income. It may not be how you live your own life, but that doesn't make it wrong.

For example, do I enjoy paying $4.65/gallon for premium gas? No, but I really like my car. Many people would spend their money in other ways, but different things make different people happy.

Just enjoy your life, what you have, and what makes you happy! :)

[kdblove_99]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712042#post12712042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jim_S
Yup, I've never once seen you post that T :p

I was actually surprised to see you even post here.

One thing I have noticed, is that in the large tank forum people are much more accepting of buying high end equipment, and debates in that forum don't involve alot of the "budget savy" crew that spend time in this forum. The debates often times have nothing to do with money ;) I spend most of my time there now :)


I agree other than the MARS forum the large tank section is where i spend alot/most of my time.

I'm a budget savy guy though, Thats just me. if i can get a skimmer/MSX that works great and is what i need i am all for that. But i in no way ever say its better or as good than a BK.

[JRaquatics]

There will always be alot of Skimmer envy. I love my Reeflo but I know that it is not a skimmer for everyone. That being said hawk66, The octo extreme is a cheeper version of a Bk,. Does it compare, hmmm... I don't think so. Will it perform well and not break you wallet, sure, but it is no BK. The Reeflo is a whole nother skimmer. It is a well built external only recirculating skimmer with a large american made pump. All in all it is personal preference and what will make you feel good at the end of the day.

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712057#post12712057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kdblove_99


Seems like there is a lot of Skimmer envy.

:D So true Davey, There is a lot of envy here on RC. It can be shown in lineage threads, skimmer threads, lighting threads; you name it.

Oh well. Thats human nature.

[tbone28]

damn, the whole Sacto crew showed up :D where JT at?...i know, sniffing glue :p

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712143#post12712143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
damn, the whole Sacto crew showed up :D where JT at?...i know, sniffing glue :p

I'm sure he will be here soon. He's probably glued himself to his garage wall. :D

[USC-fan]

Now its Skimmer envy.

LOL!

before it was just HATIN'.....

This forum is just too funny sometime.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712056#post12712056 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hawk66
I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just looking for info. How does the Octo Extreme or Reeflo compare to BK 300 in noise and ease of cleaning? For me there is more to skimmer performance than just nog, which has been stated endlessly that several skimmers on todays market are capable of doing more than well enough. It's more from an operational (cleaning, noise, ease of adjustment, consistency, plug n play, etc) point of view that I put value on. Just get the BK 400ext and be done with it.

It would out perform the oct300 and reeflo 250 and be more set and forget than the bk 300/400 INT.

[Jim_S]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712090#post12712090 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kdblove_99
I agree other than the MARS forum the large tank section is where i spend alot/most of my time.

I'm a budget savy guy though, Thats just me. if i can get a skimmer/MSX that works great and is what i need i am all for that. But i in no way ever say its better or as good than a BK.

Yup. There's nothing wrong with being budget savy. But like you said, you don't go from thread to thread telling everyone how your skimmer is better.

Either way, I'm over it. The OP made his decison and bought a Deltec. Whats funny is the person who sold him that Deltec bought Jeremy's BK :lol:

Sup Mark :)

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712171#post12712171 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jim_S

Either way, I'm over it. The OP made his decison and bought a Deltec. Whats funny is the person who sold him that Deltec bought Jeremy's BK :lol:

:spin3:

[hawk66]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712116#post12712116 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
There will always be alot of Skimmer envy. I love my Reeflo but I know that it is not a skimmer for everyone. That being said hawk66, The octo extreme is a cheeper version of a Bk,. Does it compare, hmmm... I don't think so. Will it perform well and not break you wallet, sure, but it is no BK. The Reeflo is a whole nother skimmer. It is a well built external only recirculating skimmer with a large american made pump. All in all it is personal preference and what will make you feel good at the end of the day.
Thanks for the info. Most Bk owners comment how quiet the Bk's are. In your opinion are the Reeflo's as quiet? Have you had a chance to see both in action?

[tbone28]

BK's are not quiet. They are SILENT. I thought the Eheim on my ER was quiet til my BK came in

[tbone28]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712171#post12712171 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jim_S
The OP made his decison and bought a Deltec.

I think Deltec's are overpriced. Do they skim better than BK's, ATB's, Octo's? :lol2: :D

[Jim_S]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712244#post12712244 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
BK's are not quiet. They are SILENT. I thought the Eheim on my ER was quiet til my BK came in

Agreed. Never owned one, but Jeremy's BK was DEAD silent.

Not really a fair comparison w/the reeflo and BK unless you compare ext to ext. I've never seen a BK ext though in person.

[Jim_S]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712258#post12712258 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
I think Deltec's are overpriced. Do they skim better than BK's, ATB's, Octo's? :lol2: :D

:lmao:

Honestly, they're all over priced. Just like you mentioned earlier, its the price you gotta pay if its something you want.

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712258#post12712258 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
I think Deltec's are overpriced. Do they skim better than BK's, ATB's, Octo's? :lol2: :D oh god please no. Lets not bring deltec owners into the thread. This could get ugly. ;)

[tbone28]

just being facetious guys. there wasn't an ounce of seriousness in that post - making a point only!! point being, all these "are high end skimmers better than other skimmer" threads are, for the most part, pointless

[Creetin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711389#post12711389 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
There is no "us"... It is you!

I couldn't careless why you brought a BK and nor did I ask.

Strange how you come to this thread demanding information from my last post and then totally over look it.






I demanded no information. I asked you back up allegations when YOU pop on here making statements like you did.
You’re the one getting all hot about this.
I didn’t respond to your Jeremy says post because I could care less what Jeremy said. He was pushing reeflo pretty hard then and I would think he gets a better of a deal selling reeflo's. JMO
I decided to drop it and not drag this thread down further, but it seems like you cannot let things go.
i'll let it go. :rollface:

[jtarmitage]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712143#post12712143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
damn, the whole Sacto crew showed up :D where JT at?...i know, sniffing glue :p

I see that I'm late to the party!:D

Well, this seems like a fun loving group. I have owned a rather wide variety of skimmers, with a BK 200 being one of them, H&S, Deltec, ER, Aqua-C, Barr Aquatic, and a few others, not to mention the slew of nano skimmers. I really like most of what I see on the Reeflo's, and almost bought one. It's size was the problem at the time, and that's a mighty large pump for a skimmer. Out of all those that I have owned, or even those that I have seen on others tanks, the BK was the nicest, hands down.
Now, by nicest, I mean completely silent operation, very heavy gauge acrylic and PVC components, and well thought through features. Was it worth the price to me? Absolutely. Could other skimmers perform as well for less $? Certainly. The BK is a niche market product, where someone with the disposable $ desires these features, and may be looking for a shorter, full size skimmer to fit in the cabinet. Is the RD pump worth what they're being sold for? No. Klaus charges a high premium for his CNC modifications.
As was mentioned earlier, you don't see anyone modding their BK skimmer. The fact is that there is little(or nothing) that could be done to it to make it better.
I no longer own a BK, but that is simply a matter of the budget. I'm in the middle of a tank build which grew a bit from the original plans, and I needed a larger skimmer. I would have loved to buy another BK, but that was not an option at the moment.
What I will say is this, if you line up the skimmers next to each other and rate them on the various aspects, ie air/water ratios, quietness, build quality, etc., the BK will win in nearly every category. Royal Exclusiv knows this, and as such can charge more for their product and still expect it to sell.

[Creetin]

Well put, I agree with not needing/wanting to do any mods to my BK. I see no need for it.
I like yourself have tried alot of skimmers 9 or so in the last 3 years to be exact.;)
euroreef,DAS all three EX models, ATI, MRC, ASM to name off of the top of my head. Every one i wanted to do a mod to or it required too much fuss.
I know I sound like I drank the BK Koolade but I have found My last skimmer for a long time.
To prove it I have a laguna 2905 thats pulling over 100 scfh mesh modded, and I have NOT used it on my BKD 250. Tempting, But I feel the skimmer does not need all that air with the modded laguna and the RD is matched properly to the body.

[JDS]

In my opinion which only really matters to me. BK are overpriced. You can take a MSX 300 and put a comparable red dragon pump on it and it will be just a silent and skim just as good as any comparable BK skimmer for less money. For the most part the pump makes a skimmer everything else is just bells and whistles. I really don't have a problem with how much money people want to spend on something that's their prerogative. But every time I hear the build quality of a skimmer is superior to some other brands skimmer I have to laugh. I'm not to playing football with it and when my cabinet door shut I never see it.:)

[jtarmitage]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12713091#post12713091 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JDS
In my opinion which only really matters to me. BK are overpriced. You can take a MSX 300 and put a comparable red dragon pump on it and it will be just a silent and skim just as good as any comparable BK skimmer for less money. For the most part the pump makes a skimmer everything else is just bells and whistles. I really don't have a problem with how much money people want to spend on something that's their prerogative. But every time I hear the build quality of a skimmer is superior to some other brands skimmer I have to laugh. I'm not to playing football with it and when my cabinet door shut I never see it.:)

Very true, and it is very expensive. Every time I had to remove the cup, I just marveled at how it was built. To me, I like to own nice, well built items. Some of them are expensive and some are not. It's just my pride of ownership, I guess. I never once looked at it and wished that something was different, or better designed. It's the only skimmer that I've seen that I had no complaints about, no obvious flaws. I now own a used H&S A200-2x1260, and I can't say the same thing. Still a great skimmer, and yes, by any standards, it's still a high(over) priced skimmer, but it's not built like the BK.
I've also seen several of the Octo's, MSX, and others that I look at and I see how thin the acrylic walls are. Things like that matter to me, even if I'm highly unlikely to ever break it.:rolleyes:

[CMcNeil]

all skimmers are not created equal nor built equal.BKs are expensive yes,but consider this along with all the other arguments.these skimmers arent just solvent welded together like 90% of the stuff out there.they have numerous pvc stick welds on them made by experienced plastics welders.these welders get paid more money for the skills they have than someone solvent welding acrylic with WO-4.

[JRaquatics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712223#post12712223 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hawk66
Thanks for the info. Most Bk owners comment how quiet the Bk's are. In your opinion are the Reeflo's as quiet? Have you had a chance to see both in action?

Reeflos are no where near as silent as BKs, but alot has to do with the size of the pump and one being internal and the other being external with a fan. Reeflos are much more quiet and running alot more cooler now that they are using Baldors instead of AO smith motors. Reeflos are not silent but they are quiet.

[JDS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12713186#post12713186 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CMcNeil
all skimmers are not created equal nor built equal.BKs are expensive yes,but consider this along with all the other arguments.these skimmers arent just solvent welded together like 90% of the stuff out there.they have numerous pvc stick welds on them made by experienced plastics welders.these welders get paid more money for the skills they have than someone solvent welding acrylic with WO-4. that's a good point. But I bet you you'll break the skimmer body before that solvent welded joint breaks. Why would you need to PVC stick welded a protein skimmer? After all there's not a lot of pressure internal or external on the skimmer. It's just a container to hold water air mixture.

[glassbox-design]

"Every purchase is a vote" - When you buy a company's product you support them.

99% of the skimmers out there are overpriced pieces of plastic, but what company and what business practices do you want to support?

jmo.

[JDS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714284#post12714284 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by glassbox-design
"Every purchase is a vote" - When you buy a company's product you support them.

99% of the skimmers out there are overpriced pieces of plastic, but what company and what business practices do you want to support?

jmo. yup!!

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12712277#post12712277 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
oh god please no. Lets not bring deltec owners into the thread. This could get ugly. ;)
YEAH BOY!!! :bum:

I have had my Deltec AP 702 running for 3-1/2 years now and love it.
I have never had a problem with it...not one.

Having said that, some aspects of skimmer technology have changed for the better in that time.

The volcano shaped skimmers are very intriguing to me and seem to add efficiency.

I am in the midst of beginning my upgrade to a system with almost twice the water volume so I will soon be looking towards a bigger skimmer.

Always keeping my eyes and ears open. :)

Sean

[JDS]

I would really like to see more companies give you the option of buying their skimmers with or without a pump.

[GSMguy]

many of the Deltec guys agree that the new pricing on the BK makes them a better deal.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12713168#post12713168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtarmitage

I've also seen several of the Octo's, MSX, and others that I look at and I see how thin the acrylic walls are. Things like that matter to me, even if I'm highly unlikely to ever break it.:rolleyes:

Ok, now you're just making sh*t up. The Octopus I had back in NE was an 8" body, with 1/4" thick cast acrylic.

What is the BK of the same size?? Oh, yeah, same thing, 1/4" cast.

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12713091#post12713091 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JDS
In my opinion which only really matters to me. BK are overpriced. You can take a MSX 300 and put a comparable red dragon pump on it and it will be just a silent and skim just as good as any comparable BK skimmer for less money. \

do you have a line on places that sell pumps comparable to the Red dragon?????:lol: :lol: :rolleyes:

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714514#post12714514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
do you have a line on places that sell pumps comparable to the Red dragon?????:lol: :lol: :rolleyes: do you really want to open this can of worms?

[JDS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714514#post12714514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
do you have a line on places that sell pumps comparable to the Red dragon?????:lol: :lol: :rolleyes: what I was meaning to say is just by the Red dragon pump. Granted they are expensive but you'll still save some money without having to buy the whole unit.

[jtarmitage]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714498#post12714498 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Ok, now you're just making sh*t up. The Octopus I had back in NE was an 8" body, with 1/4" thick cast acrylic.

What is the BK of the same size?? Oh, yeah, same thing, 1/4" cast.

Wow, nice Rich. A buddy of mine picked up an MSX, and it definitely was not as thick as my BK. It seemed flimsy by comparison. Sorry I didn't think to take measurements, and I was just giving you my impressions. You can take them however you like. I never recommended one skimmer over another, nor put any of them down. All I did was try to convey why I bought my BK and was happy with it. Have a nice day.

[McCrary]

I think this thread is going to get locked if people don't keep their cool.

[tbone28]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714498#post12714498 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Ok, now you're just making sh*t up.

dude, chill out

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12714826#post12714826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
dude, chill out


Whats wrong with calling someone out when they boldface make things up to justify a purchase. It seems to be pretty common with those big ticket reef items.




You guys do realize that there have been numerous studies done that show that raising the price of an item increases customer satisfaction, right?

[tbone28]

what's wrong is your choice of words - quite obvious I think :rolleyes:

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12715042#post12715042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
what's wrong is your choice of words - quite obvious I think :rolleyes:

Look, I'm sorry, but its extremely frustrating to deal with people who lack simple ethics. THis board is absolutely useless if people can't have a discussion without lying to back up their point. Seriously, is life so bad for you that you need to lie to win an argument on the internet?


If you're going to say "x uses better materials" or "x uses thicker acrylic" you should have checked whether it actually does. Its like listening to the Deltec AP600 guys telling everyone that their skimmer is better materials than the euroreefs, etc, when its actually made of extruded, and not even cast acrylic. It just gets really old listening to people who spend a lot of money just ASSUME that because a product is less expensive, its poorer quality.


In this hobby, you get what you pay for, and what your generally paying for, is a brand label. These assumptions that a more expensive product is always better are patently absurd.

[tbone28]

I have no issues with you questioning their *source of information* Please just try to be more civil with your choice of words

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12715075#post12715075 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
I have no issues with you questioning their *source of information* Please just try to be more civil with your choice of words

Sometimes harsh language (and what I used was by no means harsh) needs to be used to underscore exactly how absurd something is.



Seriously, if you can't handle that word, you can't handle the internet.

[tbone28]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
:rolleyes:whatever:rolleyes:

[jtarmitage]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12715031#post12715031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Whats wrong with calling someone out when they boldface make things up to justify a purchase. It seems to be pretty common with those big ticket reef items.




You guys do realize that there have been numerous studies done that show that raising the price of an item increases customer satisfaction, right?

Dude, I have nothing to justify. I bought a BK, and if you'd read my post, I no longer have it. The skimmer bodies may both be 1/4", but if you take a glance at the MSX, whats the first thing your gonna see? It's that 1/8" flimsy piece of PVC they use for lid. After that, my perception may have been biased towards flimsy. So sorry. I don't make things up. I don't need to. I also don't feel the need to sit behind my computer and rip into someone because you believe that their opinion is BS. Thank you for degrading RC just a little bit further by picking a fight with your choice of wording just because you are frustrated. I hope it makes you happy and makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12715130#post12715130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtarmitage
Dude, I have nothing to justify. I bought a BK, and if you'd read my post, I no longer have it. The skimmer bodies may both be 1/4", but if you take a glance at the MSX, whats the first thing your gonna see? It's that 1/8" flimsy piece of PVC they use for lid. .

I've also seen several of the Octo's, MSX, and others that I look at and I see how thin the acrylic walls are. Things like that matter to me, even if I'm highly unlikely to ever break it.


Do you see the problem between these two statements? You're taking your problem with one product, and putting it on another unrelated product, simply because they are in the same price range.


Thank you for making my point so very clearly.

[jtarmitage]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12715162#post12715162 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Do you see the problem between these two statements? You're taking your problem with one product, and putting it on another unrelated product, simply because they are in the same price range.


Thank you for making my point so very clearly.

Yep, my mistake. I'm very willing to admit it. In my head I was thinking of a number of different skimmers and only listed the one. Sorry I was thinking faster than I type. The point really is, can you set them side by side and see a difference in construction quality? I believe you can. And, the fact remains that I was still giving my opinion, and not trying to present anything as fact. You do realize that you could have gotten your point across without things getting confrontational?

I can take my bashings as well as most, and better than some, but I still don't see why you felt the need. If that's just the way you are, then so be it. Nice knowing you.:wave:

[mpoletti]

Man, I missed all the fun

http://planetsmilies.net/sport-smiley-5559.gif

But seriously, can't we all just get along?

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12715298#post12715298 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marko9


http://planetsmilies.net/sport-smiley-5559.gif


I really like that smilie though. :D

[tbone28]

Mark is the master of smilies :D

[SeanT]

This is all I got lol.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13805mad.jpg

[tbone28]

http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-1748.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[kdblove_99]

I just wonder if Rich and USC fan have ever been wrong? i have seen so many threads and there opinions are all that matters. Why do you 2 care so much that people love there BK"s and ATB and think they are the best?

People think there DAS is the best do you care about that? No, why because its a low budget skimmer and for some reason people that own low budget skimmers can think there is the best all day but when someone that owns a BK,ATB or Deltec think there skimmer is the best its a whole diffrent ball game and they are looked upon as snobs. It's a double standard
There is no winning with you two.

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12715696#post12715696 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kdblove_99
I just wonder if Rich and USC fan have ever been wrong? i have seen so many threads and there opinions are all that matters. Why do you 2 care so much that people love there BK"s and ATB and think they are the best?

People think there DAS is the best do you care about that? No, why because its a low budget skimmer and for some reason people that own low budget skimmers can think there is the best all day but when someone that owns a BK,ATB or Deltec think there skimmer is the best its a whole diffrent ball game and they are looked upon as snobs. It's a double standard
There is no winning with you two. Do you really think I would waste my time on here giving bad advice?

It has nothing to do with loving your skimmer....or hating on ATB, deltec, BK owners either. ;)

[Dejavu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711794#post12711794 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Thats wonderful, and I'm glad you like your skimmer.



My point here is, you can't say its performance, or having to mod, etc, because there are PLENTY of skimmers that do all those things.


BK 300 INT :

2000l/h air, 12" body, 25" tall, 58w, $2100

OctopusExtreme 300 (w/ pinwheel, not mesh, STOCK)

2000l/h, 12" body, 25" tall, 60w, $535


Both very similar designs, similar parameters, and I bet not unsimilar performance. Yes, the BK is nicer looking. But both are cast acrylic, both are well built, and neither will break unless you kick them across the room. The octopus has the advantage in that if a pump blows, you're out $130 for a new sicce, not out $900 for a rebadged laguna.



Its fine that you want to spend your discretionary income on something as amourphous as 'quality', and thats totally your right, but most bubbleking owners i've dealt with seem to feel that their skimmers outperform everything by such a wide margin that it alone justifies the cost, when that is nowhere near to the truth.

And that’s why I add the customer service. My friend has had his RD replaced after it wouldn't start for free. This was four year after the original purchase date. I know of a few more case like this, if it wasn’t the pump, impeller, or other. It was replaced free of charge.

I will also add that I bought my BK used. For the price I got it for, IMO it was a better buy than the reeflo and the other skimmer I was looking at get at the time I bought it.

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12715524#post12715524 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tbone28
Mark is the master of smilies :D
Thanks Terry :p

I like what they add to black and white text. There can be so much misintrepretation that I try to add in something different.

All this crazy talk and finger pointing makes me sick
http://planetsmilies.net/ill-violated-dead-smiley-5386.gif

For the record, I used USC-fan's opinion when I was deciding on my H&S.

BTW, I know that I am no angel
http://planetsmilies.net/angel-smiley-5090.gif

[sditch]

Wow, what a thread. Value is subjective and everyone will have there own words. You have to respect the King :)

[Klaus Jansen]

Wow.. what a Thread....:eek2:

The question is not, whats so great about a BK, the real question is, why make so many companys Copys from a BK or the technology from a BK. Answer this question, and you have the answer, what about is so great about Royal-Exclusiv-Technologies...

Have a nice Day...

Klaus Jansen

[sditch]

Klaus, here is a simple reponse you can say in english "Many can imitate, but only a few can originate!"

[OliverM3]

I picked up my mini 160 for around $600 which didn't seem to bad to me for a 3 month old demo model from a LFS.

My main reason was that I have never read anything about anyone having to mod, fiddle or adjust their BK to get it working to optimum performance.

I spend enough time working on the tank and anything that can reduce the time I'm working on it instead of enjoying it is so worth it to me.

[JDS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12725411#post12725411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sditch
Klaus, here is a simple reponse you can say in english "Many can imitate, but only a few can originate!" because then he wouldn't be exactly telling the truth. That basic skimmer design has been around a lot longer than BK.

The original question was due you think BK is overpriced. Not whether it's a good skimmer. You'll be hard-pressed to find anybody that says its a bad skimmer. That being said there is a lot of people here they can make a skimmer that will work just as well as a BK. It probably won't look as nice, but it will cost a fraction of what a BK costs.

[Jim_S]

I think what Klaus is saying is that innovation is not cheap. If his skimmers weren't the best, why would people be copying him??

Yes, skimmers have been around for a long time. But RE took skimmers to another level.

You can DIY all you want. If you didn't have innovators like Klaus to copy you ideas from, you'd still be running an ASM.

[JRaquatics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12725858#post12725858 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jim_S
I think what Klaus is saying is that innovation is not cheap. If his skimmers weren't the best, why would people be copying him??

Yes, skimmers have been around for a long time. But RE took skimmers to another level.

You can DIY all you want. If you didn't have innovators like Klaus to copy you ideas from, you'd still be running an ASM.

You nailed that one on the head Jim. RE is still creating the future of skimmers. IMO no one puts in more R&D than RE. And I do thank them for that.

[JDS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12725858#post12725858 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jim_S
I think what Klaus is saying is that innovation is not cheap. If his skimmers weren't the best, why would people be copying him??

Yes, skimmers have been around for a long time. But RE took skimmers to another level.

You can DIY all you want. If you didn't have innovators like Klaus to copy you ideas from, you'd still be running an ASM. please tell me what innovation that he made that so expensive. ER skimmers were one of the first with this body design. So in reality everybody has worked off of their design.

if it wasn't for the DIY community we all would still be using air stones in are skimmers.:D

[JRaquatics]

Mesh, bubble diffusers, using colorful bright red acrylic (I had too),modifying pond pumps, inner cone design to name a few.

[Jim_S]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12725955#post12725955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JDS
please tell me what innovation that he made that so expensive. ER skimmers were one of the first with this body design. So in reality everybody has worked off of their design.


Actually, AFAIK, H&S came up with that body, deltec copied them, then ER hit the market :)

And all of what JR said is exactly what I was talking about :)

[JDS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12725982#post12725982 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
using colorful bright red acrylic that pushes me over the top were can I get one.:D

[jtarmitage]

:lol: That's too funny!

[SeanT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12726007#post12726007 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jim_S
Actually, AFAIK, H&S came up with that body, deltec copied them, then ER hit the market :)

And all of what JR said is exactly what I was talking about :)
I have always heard that Deltec was first...others copied them.

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12726007#post12726007 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jim_S
Actually, AFAIK, H&S came up with that body, deltec copied them, then ER hit the market :)


This is what I've heard as well

[Klaus Jansen]

.....The original question was due you think BK is overpriced....

@Jeff....

Ingeneering is a very expensive part on the BK´s. Looks like the new DC-Red Dragons. RE spend many Money for this new Technology..... it is easy for make a Copy from the new Pumps, when the Development are finneshed (after 2,5 years) by Royal Exclusiv.... So we are the first Manufacturers of submersible, Speedadjustable BDC-Pumps. Royal-Exclusiv-Customers spend more Money for this Engeneering, as by Copy-Shops, thats right.... or the Customers become the newest Developments for Reeftechnologys. I am 100 % agree with you, when you say, its not worth the money for you, or the Point is : RE is not a Mass-Manufacturer, so we are make more Niche-Products. Many customers estimate that much and buy our products. The market have for all Pockets the right Skimmers....it is your decision, which is worth your hobby.

Thanks all BK-Friends and RC-User, where help on this Thread. :beer:

(sorry for my bad lenguage)

regards.... Klaus

[JRaquatics]

Thank you klaus, for the progression of skimmer technology and fabrication. Even though I will never be able to afford a BK I do appreciate your work. Just so that you know, you don't need to defend your products, they speak for them selves.

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12725955#post12725955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JDS
please tell me what innovation that he made that so expensive. ER skimmers were one of the first with this body design. So in reality everybody has worked off of their design.

if it wasn't for the DIY community we all would still be using air stones in are skimmers.:D

this comment exposes your ignorance on the subject, if you are not familiar with his innovations you must be quite out of the loop.


Especially since many people listed the innovations in this thread and you ignored it. :lol:

[hahnmeister]

Klaus is right on the money with his comments. You will almost never see anyone 'mod' a Bubbleking for more performance. There are little other skimmers on the market that can claim this. Perhaps it is because they are so expensive that nobody wants to break anything...lol, but really, there isnt much improvement that you can do to the design. To make a better skimmer you would have to start with a better 'core concept' in the first place. But every detail of Klaus's designs is executed with the precision that only a CNC machine shop can give you, as well as people who know how to use those tools well. That I dont think anyone can deny. Its pretty much the difference between a major university designing you a car, and Toyota building you a car.

My hat is off to you Klaus on that new Skim Clean, and although I think those DC motors are pretty high wattage for what they do, they sure do look well done.

Klaus pretty much invented the bubble-plate, for those of you who dont know. If there was one 'product' you could attach to his name as 'most significant', it would most likely be this (as far as we know).

[SeanT]

What is "Skim Clean,"?

[JDS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12726643#post12726643 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
this comment exposes your ignorance on the subject, if you are not familiar with his innovations you must be quite out of the loop. I will not disagree I know nothing about what (innovations) they've come up with I don't follow BK because I know their skimmers are away more money than I want to spend on a piece of equipment that is not a (necessity).

[JDS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12726508#post12726508 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Klaus Jansen
@Jeff....

Ingeneering is a very expensive part on the BK´s. Looks like the new DC-Red Dragons. RE spend many Money for this new Technology..... it is easy for make a Copy from the new Pumps, when the Development are finneshed (after 2,5 years) by Royal Exclusiv.... So we are the first Manufacturers of submersible, Speedadjustable BDC-Pumps. Royal-Exclusiv-Customers spend more Money for this Engeneering, as by Copy-Shops, thats right.... or the Customers become the newest Developments for Reeftechnologys. I am 100 % agree with you, when you say, its not worth the money for you, or the Point is : RE is not a Mass-Manufacturer, so we are make more Niche-Products. Many customers estimate that much and buy our products. The market have for all Pockets the right Skimmers....it is your decision, which is worth your hobby. I hope you don't think I'm bashing your product because I'm not. You have a great product it's just not for me.

Thanks all BK-Friends and RC-User, where help on this Thread. :beer:

(sorry for my bad lenguage)

regards.... Klaus

[bsk997]

It's RE's new self cleaning head like the one for Deltec.

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4182255/SkimCleaner_2_3

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4182907/SkimClean_2_4

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12726908#post12726908 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeanT
What is "Skim Clean,"?

[SeanT]

Ahh thanks a bunch. :)

[SeanT]

I have always wondered, where does the skimmate mud go with these units?
Does any fall back into the skimmers body?

[dphins]

When people talk about the Bubble Kings being expensive, everyone overlooks the fact the dollar is in the dumps. This is one of the reason they cost a lot. Not the only reason, but one of them.

[dphins]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711369#post12711369 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
No, but if you lowered the price of a BMW, etc, yeah, I think they'd sell less.

There'd be none of that "I drive a..." appeal. They'd just be any other sports sedan. There are $18K sports sedans that are nicer than a 325i, yet the 325i still sells well. WHy? Because its a bmw, and theres a certain social status attached to that.
How do you explain that the BMW 3 series has been voted the top 10 best car for 16 years straight? Do you think a Honda civic can compare to the over priced BMW?

[Akrite]

People really love the Bubble King. After all the info I might think of getting one if I can find it used for a good price.

[Akrite]

Then again I'm still a big fan of Deltec.

[AcroporAddict]

One thing that always amuses me on these threads is how everyone touts the low electricity consumption of BK skimmers, but that is offset by such a phenomenally high price that you would have to own it for how many years to even see any savings.

That said, I like BK skimmers, but the high price vs low electrical consupmtion makes that a moot point, IMO.

If you buy a lower priced skimmer that pulls as well, but uses more juice, then pay now or pay later, no difference really.
Dave

[tbone28]

you don't know how high electricy costs are in California...

[Ginzo]

my 0.02$ :)

I've never had another skimmer before and when I saw a BK160 (mini) in-store and the quality of the build, I just knew I had to buy it for my 120g reef tank.

I've adjusted the high of the water for my skimmer on day 1 and it's been now almost two years that I haven't touched my skimmer, except for the weekly cleaning of the cup. And I must say, it's incredible how it's easy to clean the cup and the quality of the construction is exceptional !

I wouldn't change my BK160 for anything else other then a bigger BK skimmer :)

[kdblove_99]

yeah try living in Cali my friend and also you are also getting a super silent pump. Which usally makes the wife happy:)

[dphins]

When you think about it, all skimmers are getting expensive. The only cheap ones are the chinese built copies.

[Akrite]

I have a 120 gallon SPS tank, 40 gallon sump with 3 medium sized tangs and 6 anthias. If I was to buy a BK what would be the best model for my tank and how much would it cost?

[dphins]

They are on sale for 15% off. It's best to buy them used.;)
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=RE-160&Category_Code=bubbleking

[Akrite]

Thanks

[Reeftank3]

Great thread. I think this horse is dead!!!!!