Anemones Stinging Each Other

[downhillbiker]

I have 2 anemones in my reef tank and the 10" Diameter Condi is in the corner away from everything, and the 4" Diameter RBTA is in the middle. I placed the RBTA there because it was so small, but now it is growing very fast, and will soon start stinging corals.

I was wondering if I could move the RBTA to the same isolated "island" of rock that the Condi is on, or if they would kill each other. Anyone have any experience in keeping different species in close proximity of each other?

[Slakker]

They will definitely not enjoy it. I would get rid of the condy just based on principle (known to eat clownfish), but it's best to rearrange corals around your anemone, and not vice versa.

If you move your anemone to the island, there are no guarantees that it won't try to move back, stinging all of the corals in its path or getting itself caught up in a powerhead about 7 minutes after you leave for work in the morning and dieing, causing a catastrophic ammonia spike.

[downhillbiker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12853336#post12853336 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
They will definitely not enjoy it. I would get rid of the condy just based on principle (known to eat clownfish), but it's best to rearrange corals around your anemone, and not vice versa.

If you move your anemone to the island, there are no guarantees that it won't try to move back, stinging all of the corals in its path or getting itself caught up in a powerhead about 7 minutes after you leave for work in the morning and dieing, causing a catastrophic ammonia spike.

if they dont enjoy it...wouldn't they just move apart? i dont think they would move off of the "island" just around. there is no rock pathway to where the corals are. i dont plan on moving the anemone per say, but rather the whole rock that the anemone is attached to. IME they find a spot that they can sit down in real well, and dont move much.

there should be plenty of room for both of the anemones on one rock as there is about 20-30# or more in that pile of 3 large rocks.

[Slakker]

It's not necessarily physical contact, but the broadcast of nematocysts and other chemical compounds in the water (chemical warfare, allelopathy). It's not terribly well documented, but I personally wouldn't take any risks when one of the anemones in question is a condylactis. They've got pretty nasty stings.

While BTA's prefer not to travel on sand, they sometimes will in order to find a more suitable spot. Moving it, or its rock, to a place in the tank with different lighting, flow, or any number of unknown changes in subtle variables can send a BTA roaming for a new spot. They're well known for this, and it's not uncommon for them to go for a walk up the glass and end up stuck in a powerhead.

I would leave the anemone where it is and start rearranging corals to accommodate. IMO, they're a lot easier to move around without the risk of serious repercussions. It would be a shame to lose such a beautiful BTA.

[downhillbiker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12853602#post12853602 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
It's not necessarily physical contact, but the broadcast of nematocysts and other chemical compounds in the water (chemical warfare, allelopathy). It's not terribly well documented, but I personally wouldn't take any risks when one of the anemones in question is a condylactis. They've got pretty nasty stings.

While BTA's prefer not to travel on sand, they sometimes will in order to find a more suitable spot. Moving it, or its rock, to a place in the tank with different lighting, flow, or any number of unknown changes in subtle variables can send a BTA roaming for a new spot. They're well known for this, and it's not uncommon for them to go for a walk up the glass and end up stuck in a powerhead.

I would leave the anemone where it is and start rearranging corals to accommodate. IMO, they're a lot easier to move around without the risk of serious repercussions. It would be a shame to lose such a beautiful BTA.

i am unfamiliar with chemical warefare, but my understanding is that anemones dont release their nematocysts on their own, but rather when they come in contact with potential prey items.

i just dont know if i want to get rid of the condi. it has so much color and is so healthy, really a good part of my tank. and i have never had problems with clowns being eaten by condi's, and i have had a half dozen condi/clown combos.

[downhillbiker]

also, i dont know if moving corals around to accomidate is the best thing to do for me. i am running a 72 bowfront and with the 10" condi and potentially an even larger RBTA, they would just take up the entire tank, unless isolating them would work.

[Tang Salad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12854218#post12854218 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
my understanding is that anemones dont release their nematocysts on their own, but rather when they come in contact with potential prey items.

AFAIK, that is correct.

[davocean]

I agree w/ Slakker on this one, my sebae and LTA came into contact w/ each other way back, neither looked too happy, had to seperate.
Condy's are pretty, but they are said to have a stronger sting and not an ideal hosting nem.
FWIW I started w/ a 90g, and as my 2 nems grew it became really difficult to keep them from stinging corals, and resulted in upping to my 180g, and even in that I'm limited to how many corals I can keep.
If I had to do it all over again, I would have kept to just one nem.

[downhillbiker]

i dont want to hear this guys. i am saddened by the way this is looking. i really dont want to get rid of the condi. i know they have bad stings. mine is hosting a clown, so that is not an issue. i would love to keep both. anyone have good results with this? please....

[davocean]

I'm not saying get rid of the condy, I just wouldn't snuggle them up together on the same rock.
And just because you move the BTA to where YOU want it, doesn't mean it will stay there, and sometimes they will just detach and drift to another spot, or maybe even intake.
The clown isn't the only one vulnerable to condy sting, all fish are, and occasionally I'll see a fish dart off as it got too close to one of my nems, shaken, but not stirred!
A condy hit may do alot more damage.
But if you keep asking for the answer you want to hear, I'm sure someone will say "just go for it dude"

[downhillbiker]

that is true. someone will probably say go for it if thats what i want to do, my tank, right?

that isn't what i want though. i just figured that if they came in contact they would move apart again. maybe i am wrong. maybe they would try to kill each other. maybe the best bet for me is to try and build another area for the RBTA on the other side of the tank, that gives it room to grow without stinging corals, but right now it is just an inch away from a couple.

i know i can move the corals, but i am just very limited with the two anemones on the same half of the tank, but apart from each other. just makes my tank look weird with one half anemones and one half corals, i am looking for more balance.

[davocean]

I had the same dilema, so I went w/ the bookend approach, this worked well for me;

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/mermail/Tankupdate0807174.jpg

[orchidsnfish]

They will not move apart more than likely. If they touch they will likely fight it out till the end. I have seen anemones move around a tank just to try to kill another anemone. Don't put them where they will touch. You will probably loose your BTA. I had a purple LTA that used to follow a condy around the tank trying to kill it. The purple LTA lost and looked horrible, but still kept trying to kill the condy. I had to separate them. Opposite ends of the tank works best. Good luck getting a condy to stay where you want it. They are wanderers.

Angela

[downhillbiker]

Nice pic. I think that will work out best for me. I think the bookend look is a good one, and that will make things work without having to get rid of one of the nems. i also noticed that you had the rock in a few inches from the ends of your tank, while mine is all the way up to the side glass. since my tank is viewable from 3 sides i think i will move the rock in, as you did, for ease of glass cleaning.

[davocean]

Exactly reason I kept rock in, easy clean.
Hoped we helped solve issue, I was at a crossroads trying to decide wich nem to get rid of when they were getting too big for my 90g, and I just couldn't do it!
Like picking which kid to ditch!LOL
I've just had both for way too long to get rid of now.

[Slakker]

I forget where I saw it, but I've seen an article about anemones releasing nematocysts into the water column as a defense/deterrent mechanism against "rival" anemones. I've no information on hand that says indefinitely whether either of these particular species do it, but I do believe that putting them too near each other would have ended badly.

I'm glad you've found another solution...can't wait to see the new aquascape!

[Tang Salad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12860181#post12860181 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
I forget where I saw it, but I've seen an article about anemones releasing nematocysts into the water column as a defense/deterrent mechanism against "rival" anemones.
Yep, you're right. I just found this in Borneman's book (p. 71)
Another remarkable feature of corals, though more common in anemones, is the firing of long-distance nematocysts. Some corals periodically discharge their nematocysts into the water like a battalion of long-range missiles, allowing them to settle on and sting whatever they contact.

[downhillbiker]

well here's the old aquascape with the RBTA in the middle:

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/fallscityshuttleday086.jpg

and here's the new aquascape showing the "bookend" method:

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/oregoncoasttrip092.jpg

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/oregoncoasttrip094.jpg

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/oregoncoasttrip095.jpg

[sk8rreefgeek]

How long have you had the condi?

I was TOLD that these 2 nems would not harm each other, even if they were touching. Bad advice to say the least. The Rose started showing stress, and had to move away from its spot.

the condi (haitian) stayed put for about a month, then, was off on a warpath. I came home from work to find it completely covering a large zoo colony. that was the last straw. it was a beautiful anemone, but had to let it go back to the FS :(

I hope your's works out, it may stay put, but they are notorious for wandering. Sorry that's not what you want to hear, but that was my experience

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r41/karlkidd/leftside.jpg

[downhillbiker]

yeah. i have to say that my condi has been in the same spot, or relatively close for about 1 1/2 years now. it moves a little, but only around the rock, not in any harmful or major way. keep fingers crossed.

so what do you guys think of the new aquascape? is this going to work out? no way to tell for sure, but it looks like it might be promising, right?

[Slakker]

Your condy is a beautiful creature...I see why you don't want to get rid of it!

Looks good. Who knows if they'll still be threatened by one another or not, but at least there's a larger "buffer" zone now.

[crsswift70]

That is a pretty one.

[downhillbiker]

thanks guys. yeah, i really didn't want to get rid of that $9 beauty. i lucked out, and knew that i had to have that one when i saw it, even if it is a condi.

[abulgin]

I don't understand why you would put an expensive RBTA in a 78g with a condy. These animals aren't compatible tankmates at all, especially in that small of a volume. Sure, you can run a lot of carbon to keep down on the allelopathy and try to keep one or the other from roaming, but sooner or later one of them is going to lose and one is going to win. My guess is that the RBTA will be the one to suffer. I would keep ane eye on the RBTA--it can take 12-18 months for it to show signs it's losing.

[downhillbiker]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12869685#post12869685 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
I don't understand why you would put an expensive RBTA in a 78g with a condy. These animals aren't compatible tankmates at all, especially in that small of a volume. Sure, you can run a lot of carbon to keep down on the allelopathy and try to keep one or the other from roaming, but sooner or later one of them is going to lose and one is going to win. My guess is that the RBTA will be the one to suffer. I would keep ane eye on the RBTA--it can take 12-18 months for it to show signs it's losing.

are you saying that it will "lose" when it comes in contact and the two start moving toward eachother to fight? or are you just saying this will happen through the water? i really guess i need to read up more on the issue, but i have seen many tanks with several varieties of anemone in the same tank.

do you have a link to any information that supports this? i would like to learn more about the possible threat my condi poses on the RBTA.

[abulgin]

By lose, I mean the two anemones (and any other stinging celled animals like softies and shrooms) will engage in chemical warfare, even if they are across the tank from each other. You'd be nuts to put them on the same rock.

Yes, you've seen several tanks with several anemones in them, but have you seen those same tanks 2 years later with those anemones? It can take as long as 12 months before an anemone will start to decline. About the only anemones that can do well together are cloned. You can cut down on the warfare by running a lot of carbon and changing frequently, but that doesn't change the fact that you've created a hostile environment for your animals. The fact that you are removing compounds doesn't mean your nems don't sense each other and are happy.

Go to www.wetwebmedia.com and use the search feature to search WWM (not google) "condy and BTA" . Read the responses to the FAQ, many "I have a condy and a BTA and all was great until yesterday . .. " Also read linked files regarding BTAs. You'll see . . .

[downhillbiker]

i do use carbon. i fill a tray in my canister filter with it, about 2.5 cups and change it out every 3 weeks. but i will read up and figure out what i need to do. i also have shrooms, ricordea, leathers, galaxia, torch, frogspawn, ect. are these factors in the chemical warefare?

[abulgin]

Absolutely. Shrooms, like your ricordea, are some of the most aggressive "war makers" of all. When you start reading these FAQs, you'll see that anemones really have no place in a tank with corals, especially shrooms, soft corals and aggressive LPS. They either sting sessile inverts, die from allelopathy, or live a much-shortened life. I know, I know . . . everybody does it . . . but just understand the risks and be ready to act quickly if you see the RBTA declining.

To me, it just wouldn't be worth the risk to an $80 plus RBTA. You've got enough going on in that tank without having to deal with 2 anemones.

[davocean]

Abulgin, while I agree I wouldn't have 2 different species touching, I disagree w/ your last statement of having nems, even different species mixed w/ other corals.
I've seen many having successful mixed reefs, it can be a little more challenging, but can be done.
5 1/2yrs and counting here;

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/mermail/Brandnew180july108063.jpg

[sk8rreefgeek]

The thing that bothers me is hearing that anemones take so long to show signs of declining health.

downhill - I wouldn't say your tank is a 'small' space for 2 nems. I would definitely keep your condi in there as long as possible. I wish I could've kept mine.
the aquascape does look nice too. You can't see flow in a pic, but I'd just make sure you have enough flow in the corners to keep the nems happy. good luck

[downhillbiker]

thanks. i think that is the plan from here, to keep the condi as long as possible. if i start seeing the RBTA go "downhill" then i will get rid of the condi. i dont want to get rid of the ricordeas, trying to grow out and multiply the red riccordea yuma for future sales. the other riccordeas i could take or leave, but i will try to keep them as long as possible.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/downhill_biker/5-9-08FishTank005-1.jpg

[sk8rreefgeek]

I'll give your ricordias a good home if you need me to LOL
I just got my first one (neon green) I'm pretty stoked about that

[davocean]

I've had rics, shrooms, LPS, SPS, gorgs,nems, all for quite a while w/ no ill effects.
My guess is keep them seperate, don't try to mess w/ them as much as poss, and all should be fine.

[watergator]

Interesting topic. I have a condy that's quite big. It recently moved next to my two LTAs. Its on the glass so I could remove it, but will it sting me?

[davocean]

Probably not enough to be an issue if it did, unless you had allergy or something.
Over the years I've pushed mine asided to shift/change rocks, or clean stubborn coraline w/ no prob except a couple times when REALLY rough handling that resulted in red itchy bumps similar to flea bites.

[watergator]

So, does the cody release defensive chemicals into the water that affect soft corals?

[downhillbiker]

i am unsure about the chemical warfare, still learning. i would say at a minimum you should get the anemones apart. no they wont sting you. you may feel the tentacles sticking to your hand, but wont sting you. there are only a few places on the human body that the skin is thin enough that you can actually feel the sting.

your tongue is one of them. i licked a giant green sea anemone on a tide pool trip with my marine biology class for extra credit. actually did it 3 times trying to rack up the extra credit.

[sk8rreefgeek]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12874728#post12874728 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by downhillbiker
i licked a giant green sea anemone

that's awesome! lol

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12872354#post12872354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davocean
Abulgin, while I agree I wouldn't have 2 different species touching, I disagree w/ your last statement of having nems, even different species mixed w/ other corals.
I've seen many having successful mixed reefs, it can be a little more challenging, but can be done.
5 1/2yrs and counting here;

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e141/mermail/Brandnew180july108063.jpg

Well, I don't have any experience keeping multiple anemones, much less multiple anemones with coral. What I do have is information that I've been give by (both individually and globally) by the very knowledgeable experts at WetWebMedia, in whom I place much trust. A search of this issue on www.wetwebmedia.com will provide many, many posts regarding the dangers of keeping a "mixed reef", and specifically of keeping multiple anemones in a small tank.

As I said, I don't dispute that people can and have kept mixed reef aquaria with apparent "success". I guess the definition of "success" is debatable. I do note that your tank is more than 2 times the size of the OP's tank. Larger tanks makes keeping incompatible animals a little more doable.

Again, I'm no expert. You should search wetwebmedia.com on the subject and form your own opinions/conclusions.

Everyone (in the US) have a great holiday weekend!

[davocean]

Over the yrs I've seen varying opinions, and I've also seen them change.
I think we still have a ways to go in understanding many of our animals.
And FWIW, my 180 is only a yr old since swap, the other 4 1/2 were in a 90g, so pretty close to OP.
I had to up due to my animals outgrowing my 90g, so they seem pretty healthy.
I do have a ways to go going by their lifespan, but I'm going to call 5 1/2yrs long term success.

[davocean]

Downhill, you may not feel the sting, but they can, you just don't usually see it till next day, red itchy rash bumps, kinda like flea bites.
I've seen this posted a number of times.
But is it like a jellyfish sting?
No, nowhere near that strong.