Lion Fish - Leave Them Alone! Let Evolution Begin

[FlyinggFish]

Lion Fish Video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=38jYU9bNeAc)

CAUTION: If you don't want to hear hippie talk, then don't read. I'm just very outraged and feel that people should voice there opinion about this - & nobody really goes in the "Ethical Forum."

I want to hear everyone's opinion!
The Lion Fish "crisis": 100's of lion fish are being captured in the Atlantic, all the way from the Bahamas to Maine. They are ruining coral colonies as well as harming fish and habitats.
But who's the say that that's wrong?

Why do humans have to involve themselves in everything they think is going wrong? This is evolution, people! If the Lion Fish species was meant to die, they would have died out. Who knows what amazing things can come out of the Lion fish's growth!
On another note, humans have started capturing alligators in S. Florida because of their growth in population (3 to every 1 human), ALLIGATORS lived on this planet before HUMANS - who have absolutely no right to capture and kill these reptiles - ever even came into the picture.
The Lion Fish population is growing, much like the human population which has a high birth rate than death rate; but let me get this straight, it's okay to diminish/eliminate animals that don't even pose as a threat to humans, but nobody's going to do anything about the sudden "break out" in teen age girls that are getting pregnant?
I hate seeing Earth filled with people don't care about other organisms, instead they view them only as a pointless animal organism with no family, emotions or reason to live other than for human pleasure or reliance.

Thanks.

[A sea K]

I'm not even going to try.

[FlyinggFish]

Please do

[huntinweim]

Nevermind

[useskaforevil]

lol, you make stupid comments with a retarded basis. because a species has evolved less lately it has more of a right to exist? what are you talking about a sudden break out in teenage pregnancies? that's been going on forever.

maybe we're the cause of the sudden growth in population of alligators and lionfish? ever think of that?


who are you to say people who attempt to fix problems are wrong? you're not a scientist, you're not a ethithist, you're not anybody but a guy with a flawed sense of logic.

[FlyinggFish]

Thank you, somebody who has some knowledge. I also heard that the Lion Fish started living along the Atlantic Coast because, well, humans release them there. So, actually, it's not the Lion Fish's fault, I don't understand why they have to be punished.

[crsswift70]

he he, i think the point is we humans introduced the fish to a different environment. We altered things. According to your argument, we have ruined the natural evolution of things by introducing a species that nature didn't create, in to a different environment.

[Amoore311]

The Lion Fish population is growing, much like the human population which has a high birth rate than death rate; but let me get this straight, it's okay to diminish/eliminate animals that don't even pose as a threat to humans, but nobody's going to do anything about the sudden "break out" in teen age girls that are getting pregnant?


Here is your answer.... like it or not:

Lionfish, and there future offspring, don't pay taxes.


Seriously w/ the Alligator population. Would you prefer the population to explode and have alligators encroaching on peoples property? Which would just get the alligator killed in the end anyways, but you run the risk of a small child or other person being hurt?

It's the same thing in NY w/ Deer. Deer herds are thinned out when the population gets to high. The deer that are killed are used to feed the homeless.

Letting herds explode and die off not only weakens the herd as a whole (the herd is made up of many week individuals, instead of a small amount of very healthy ones), it promotes disease, over feeding, destruction of land, and car accidents.

[FlyinggFish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12926465#post12926465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crsswift70
he he, i think the point is we humans introduced the fish to a different environment. We altered things. According to your argument, we have ruined the natural evolution of things by introducing a species that nature didn't create, in to a different environment.



That is a good point. What I'm hypothesizing though, is that diminishing the growing population along the Atlantic Coast can alter what Mother Earth intended to happen.

[yukonblizzard]

But in a way arent we a part of nature just like a bird transfering fish eggs from one body of water to another, whats the difference if we do it?

I am no expert thats just my oppinion.

[Amoore311]

diminishing the growing population along the Atlantic Coast can alter what Mother Earth intended to happen.


Mother nature didn't put the damn things in the Atlantic, we did. :hammer:

[aslavatortin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12926530#post12926530 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amoore311
Mother nature didn't put the damn things in the Atlantic, we did. :hammer:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Amoore311]

But in a way arent we a part of nature just like a bird transfering fish eggs from one body of water to another, whats the difference if we do it?

Birds don't know they are doing it.


Here is the difference the way I see it.


In order to get the lionfish into your tank. You need a boat....un-natural, and a plane or car to w/e to have it transported to your house....un-natural.

This isn't some native american catching a trout and walking back home to Chief Rain in the Face, washing the trout out in a nearbye stream (thus possibly releasing eggs if the trout was pregnant).

This is a fish being transported 1000's of miles to a place it doesn't even remotely belong...and have it dumped in an ocean 1/2 a world away.

sorry for the continuous posts... people keep posting while I'm typing :rollface: :rollface:

[welsher7]

The lionfish were introduced into the Atlantic by humans and therefore it is our problem to fix. The lionfish isn't native to the Atlantic ocean and is decimating the local fish populations. Local fish don't recognize the lionfish as a predator and have no defense from the lionfish. The lionfish is also out competing other native predators. So not only will the lionfish's insatiable appetite probably cause the extinction of smaller native prey, but it could also cause the extinction of larger native predators. The lionfish is completely disrupting the native ecosystem this could produce side affects that you or I could never think of.

[crsswift70]

Are we a part of nature though? That's a difficult question :) We used to be for sure... now, hmm. Flyingfish.. what makes you think "mother earth" intended it to happen? If it came over on the back of a bird.. or got caught up in a current and swept over here, sure. But, these came over on an airplane.. hardly mother nature. But, this is all on the argument that humans are no longer part of nature. I think we broke that link long ago and are now make our own "nature". Science, air conditioners and heaters, genetic engineering.. we make our own "nature".

[FlyinggFish]

Yes, humans are part of nature and as humans we have gotten bigger and evolved from primates! I like your comment yukonblizzard.

My opinion with the Lion Fish ordeal is that animal organism have evolved over hundreds of years and how many animals can be followed through evolution? I feel that diminishing populations that were created by humans can harm evolution. But then again, maybe the Lion Fish aren't supposed to be conjugating in the Atlantic, that certainly doesn't give humans the right to euthanasias the population. Animals organisms are really no different than human organisms.

[welsher7]

You aren't thinking about the big picture. You are thinking about an individual spieces of fish that has no business being in the Atlantic, and not thinking about the side affects this fish is or could cuase to the local ecosystem.

What gave us the right to release a non native fish to the Atlantic and kill off other native spieces?

[Amoore311]

I'm seriously about to slam my head on the desk....

How can you call the lion fish being in the atlantic natural.....a friggin pelican didn't carry the damn thing from Indonesia to North Carolina and drop it off.

It was flown on a plane.

Please explain to me how a Airplane is part of nature...

[FlyinggFish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12926605#post12926605 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crsswift70
Are we a part of nature though? That's a difficult question :) We used to be for sure... now, hmm. Flyingfish.. what makes you think "mother earth" intended it to happen? If it came over on the back of a bird.. or got caught up in a current and swept over here, sure. But, these came over on an airplane.. hardly mother nature. But, this is all on the argument that humans are no longer part of nature. I think we broke that link long ago and are now make our own "nature". Science, air conditioners and heaters, genetic engineering.. we make our own "nature".

You are so very right. Humans WERE a part of nature. I think that is the smartest thing I have ever heard.

Humans try to make there own nature. Just like that gentleman was saying how the growth in alligators will create property destruction and cause harm to humans, but by removing animals that we feel are "potential threats" to ourselves, we are creating our own nature, selfishly, so that we can be comfortable.

[crsswift70]

OK, so to use your argument against you again. I'm betting you use toothpaste.. and i'm betting you go to the doctor. I think it's very unfair of you to introduce that sugar and bacteria in to your mouth, and then just kill them off with all that toothpaste. I also think it's unfair of you to use hydrogen peroxide and\or antibiotics on any wound you get. Those poor bacteria you introduced didn't deserve that. The worms you got from eating that sushi don't deserve to get killed by your nasty medicine! Those fish you introduced in to the Atlantic don't deserve to die just because they are altering the environment and harming local fauna... oh wait, yes they do. You do it almost every day.

[FlyinggFish]

People that released the fish into open waters aren't getting penalized!!!!!!!

[Amoore311]

And FYI Mr. Lionfish won't Evolve b/c it was dropped into an unfamiliar environment.... it's already the Apex Predator, which is where the problem lies.

[FlyinggFish]

That's not what I'm even trying to say.

[FlyinggFish]

Also, why do you keep referring to me as a guy?

[Amoore311]

People that released the fish into open waters aren't getting penalized!!!!!!!

Yeah because we have satellites/patrols stationed for the sole purpose of watching out for this...

Are you a member of PETA by any chance?

[FlyinggFish]

No, I'm not. Never go near that crap - I could honestly bash that organization forever. Yes, I'm a vegetarian and love animals way to much, but I would never listen to a word PETA says. I'm a little offended.

Can't we all just get alone?

[Amoore311]

That's not what I'm even trying to say.

"Lion Fish - Leave Them Alone! Let Evolution Begin"

Where did I ever get that idea from ?
:strooper:

[crsswift70]

LOL.. this from a person that knew they were going against the consensus and general belief of the majority of people on this forum? LOL again. And yes, i think you SHOULD get alone :) Lunch is over. Ya'll have fun.

[FlyinggFish]

Well, persuade me even more to see that the Lion Fish can't serve any good.

[corbett_n]

I am a Marine biologist and I see a few lionfish in our Chevron traps every year. They are dumped into the ocean by aquarist and there is nothing we can do about it. They are too many and they are too deep even if we wanted to eradicate them. There is no evidence that they are diminishing fish populations. There hasn't been near enough caught to even make that assumption.
As for the comment about animals are no different than humans:
1)you are definitely in a minority on that one.
2)I don't feel like arguing this one, but if you feel this way then you should definitely not have an aquarium.

[FlyinggFish]

It's not the animal's fault that they are growing larger and larger. Obviously, I don't believe in killing animals, that's all.

[welsher7]

I think you are trying to say that we shouldn't kill/punish the lionfish for our mistake of releasing them. But by releaseing them we are killing/punishing other spieces of fish. How can you justify that it is ok to kill off those native spieces and let the invasive lionfish take over.


The fish are believed to be released during one of the big hurricanes that happened in the 90s. So not all of the lionfish were intentinally introduced. Most of the lionfish that have been caught have been traced back to 7 indivivdual fish through DNA testing.

[Amoore311]

What if a Rabid Coyote/Wolf w/e attacked your kid and made a nice den in your back yard?

I bet all rules would be off the table wouldn't they?

This isn't related to the Lionfish situation, but your jaded belief of "never killing animals" in general.

[FlyinggFish]

I'm not here to even argue. Buddy, it's America. And actually, your job isn't to tell anybody who can and can not have an aquarium.

[Amoore311]

I'm not here to even argue. Buddy, it's America. And actually, your job isn't to tell anybody who can and can not have an aquarium.

What exactly are you here for then?

It's a public forum, if you don't want criticism of your asinine viewpoints start up a blog.

Or one of those cool video blogs the emo kids are doing now. :idea:

[FlyinggFish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12926789#post12926789 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amoore311
What if a Rabid Coyote/Wolf w/e attacked your kid and made a nice den in your back yard?

I bet all rules would be off the table wouldn't they?

This isn't related to the Lionfish situation, but your jaded belief of "never killing animals" in general.


If that happened (because Wolves love Florida), then the Rabies Office would be notified by the hospital and I'm quite sure they would take care of it. I can't stop that (euthanasia) from happening and I'm pretty sure I can't stop anything from happening that the government gives the OK on.

[FlyinggFish]

What do you think I'm here for?
www.reefcentral.com
Well, I'm guessing I'm here because I have saltwater tanks?

[corbett_n]

Obviously I can't tell you to have an aquarium or not, but I can say you are a giant hypocrite for having one. For every fish or coral you have many others died trying to get it to you, so you can cage them and probably shorten their life. It just come down to being human, we try and control nature and thats just how was, is, and is always going to be.

[FlyinggFish]

You're very wrong, and quite ignorant with regards to life.

[gjh289]

P.E.T.A. = People. Eating. Tasty. Animals. :)

[FlyinggFish]

You may be right, but then again I could be giving them a longer, better, healthier life than if they were in the ocean amongst predators.

[FlyinggFish]

PETA = fake.

[corbett_n]

In the ocean the fish have a chance to breed and create more life. Taking them out the ocean not only lowers the fish population but lowers future populations by not allowing them to breed.

[corbett_n]

I am guilty of it too

[FlyinggFish]

That's what the government wants to do with the Lion Fish.

[GSMguy]

I have nothing to add, but the threads tone and title made me think of this.

we need an "EMO reefkeeper" subform:lol:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/06/Crocker1.JPG

[corbett_n]

I don't think it will work. They are too deep to locate effectively. If we are finding them on our sub dives then they could be everywhere. The sub can only scratch the surface of viable lionfish grounds off our east coast. Just from my experience (remember this is my job) once a fish is introduced and takes off there is nothing that can be done about it. If nature doesn't take care of the problem, you just have to live with it.

[corbett_n]

gross pic

[fyrefysh]

LOL, funny thread, this shouldn't be in the reefkeeping forum though. Please take your whining elsewhere.

[Batfly]

this isn't my opinion just a thought for thought.

according to "Lion Fish - Leave Them Alone! Let Evolution Begin",

humans should be able to do whatever they want to whatever species they want to do it to. Humans are the evolved species. In evolution terms (at least on earth) humans have been there, done that, and got the t-shirt. The common knowledge law for evolution seems to be survival of the fittest. Alligators need guns and more cunning i guess. Lionfish need frequent flyer miles then?

According to the original topic that is,