Thinking of getting a new skimmer - should I, and recommendations?

[LobsterOfJustice]

Like the title says - thinking of getting a new skimmer. I've only had experience with two skimmers - both beckett. The first was a DIY from another reefer, and this one is an MRC-2. I am driving this skimmer with a GEN-X PCX70, I would enjoy a more energy-efficient skimmer. This skimmer is also plumbed externally, which is taking up space - an in-sump would be nice, but not necessary. Basically, I'm just not sure my skimmer is cutting it. I am trying to improve my system and looking at things I am doing differently from every one else, and the skimmer is one area.

I have only ever worked with becketts so I really don't even know what to look for and what maintenance is required on other types. With my current skimmer, I loosen some thumbscrews to take the lid off and wipe down the inside of the neck/cup with paper towels every 1-2 weeks (when I notice collection slowing). During the same time I loosen some other thumbscrews and take out the injector to rinse it out under the faucet. I like that I can control air intake and water level separately to have more control. I also like that the collection cup has a drain - this feature would have to be on any other skimmer I own.

My tank is stocked HEAVILY with fish- and is fed accordingly. Tank is a 90g display, 150g system, predominantly SPS. Money is tight, but I am willing to pay for what I need. I would like to get a skimmer where I don't have to worry about wether it's cutting it. In-sump space is approximately 16"x10". I am not very DIY - talented, so I can't buy a skimmer and mod it unless it's very simple and a complete kit.

Do you think I would be happy with a new skimmer? Is there much maintenance involved? Am I just being restless and should I stick with what I have and know? If you think I need a new skimmer... which do you recommend?

[JasonNY58]

I had a octopus PS 200 that I did a couple simple mods and it pulled a tremendous amount of air and would completely handle that tank. It goes for about 230, and after venturi and mesh mod it was much better than the bubble master 160 im using now. IMO dont get sucked into some sill trend skimmer as I did with the BM 160 and get a solid make and improve the pull with the simple mods and you will be fine GUARENTEED!

[LobsterOfJustice]

Bump.

Is there a place to buy kits for the mods, and are they easy?

[bogg]

The bubble magus looks cool it's on ebay for cheap


This one looks like it will work well for your tank and budget.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bubble-Magus-BM100-Protein-Skimmer-for-600Litres-Tank_W0QQitemZ310067005851QQihZ021QQcategoryZ46313QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

mods if i cant link this I apologise and plese remove.

[Todd March]

Bubble Magus is out--very small skimmers and funky voltage converter problems, forget it...

You didn't mention a budget, only said money is tight, but you are willing to pay... Mmmmm...

A needlewheel or meshwheel skimmer is a very different skimmer than a Beckett--for a good NW, sized for your system, a collection cup drain is going to be hard to find--I would give up on that (mainly on larger NW skimmers for larger systems). But think of this a positive thing--the way that NW skimmers are made, to clean the neck and cup, you remove the cup/neck portion from the body and clean it and then reinstall it. Having a drain makes it easier, yes, but the neck stays dirtier than if you manually remove the whole cup and neck and clean it.

Beckets like to have dirty necks, and work better with a little bit of sludge on their necks. Needlewheels don't like a dirty neck so much, and this is one of the reasons they have manual removal cups with no drain--to make you keep them clean, particularly the necks.

Depending on your budget, some fantastic skimmers for your system would include:

ATB Small Cone
ATI Bubble Master 200
MSX 200
Deltec APF 600 or AP701
H&S A200
Euro Reef RS 130

These are skimmers with good a following behind them, and with not too many problems posted here on RC (although the BM 200 barely qualifies here). You might find some other lower priced options (Octopus skimmers come to mind), but they can be a little more problematic and/or unproven or very basic. The Octo's are good basic skimmers (like the ASM's also), don't get me wrong, but that is about all that they are--basic skimmers.

I would do some "Search" function research here on RC and really learn as much as you can. Some of the skimmers I listed above are recirculating (requires a feed line from your overflow or a separate feed pump) and can operate externally, and some are in sump. You should learn the differences between these two and what would suit the needs of you and your system.

Personally, I think needlewheels/meshwheels are a big improvement over Beckets on many levels--not that Beckets are bad in any way, they work great--but their idiosyncrasies such as losing head when you put your hands in the water, or the hefty pumps required (with electrical costs and noise) make them less than ideal for my needs. Some of the newer Beckets, like the KZ Revolution, that use much smaller pumps and more efficient cone shaped bodies, are very interesting, however...

[LobsterOfJustice]

Thanks for the informative post!

Is it just me, or is it a little hard to find some of those for sale? Google searches often turn up forum discussions about the skimmer.

A few more questions... How is the maintenance on these skimmers? I leave the tank for a week at a time 5-6 times a year, and maybe for up to 2 weeks once or twice a year. That is one of the main reasons I want the drain in the collection cup. The maintenance has to be easy and quick or I wont end up doing it. Like I said, I can easily loosen a few thumbscrews on my current skimmer and clean the neck and injector.

I think I would prefer in-sump, but could do external. I can also feed from the overflow fairly easily. I have two 1.5" drains from the tank going into the sump, so I could not only feed with one, but I could adjust the flow because I have another drain to take whatever doesn't go into the skimmer. Feeding the skimmer from the overflow is rather foreign to me - I have to do the opposite - run a filter sock on the drains constantly or else my injector gets clogged.

Also, I guess I should narrow my budget down a little more - $500 would be nice, $700 max.

[Todd March]

Yeah, if you're going to be leaving it for up to 2 weeks, then a drain is gunna be important, no ands, ifs, or buts, about it! No needlewheel sized right it gunna go two weeks--or at least it's not something you can count on. I guess you can always have a drain line drilled/installed on the skimmer of your choice...

Because I can't for the life of me think of a under $700 needlewheel or meshwheel skimmer that has a drain line installed...? I hope someone chimes in with some ideas, as I am really stumped...?

I really recommend checking out the used equipment section here on RC. You can find some good buys if you look (people are always leaving the hobby) often. You can find it HERE (http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=2).

As for maintenance--on my ATB cone skimmer, I keep the cup's o-ring well lubed with silicone, and I can reach in with ONE hand and remove the cup/neck, empty and wash it, and then reinstall with one hand again. Takes me only 5 minutes tops. It's great, but mind you this is also a $1K German import... But that's essentially what you do--every 4-7 days (more like every 4-5, depending on the cups size), remove the cup, empty the skimmate, clean the cup and neck, and then reinstall... When the neck on a needlwheel/meshwheel gets dirty, skimmer performance drops a lot. Some of the high end skimmers (Deltec, Bubble King) offer a self cleaning neck option, that while EXPENSIVE, keeps the skimmer operating at top notch levels. Like I said, NW's and MW's do not like dirty necks...

Then every 6 months or so, clean the pump and needlwheel in vinegar to clear off Ca deposits and your good to go. Sometimes the airline tubing can accumulate salt creep and slightly clog, and some recommend running some hot RO water down the airline tubing while the skimmer is running, but others say they never need to do this--it really varies from skimmer to skimmer...

There is no injector to clean regularly like with the Beckett. Closest thing would be the airline hose and salt creep, and for many (most?) NW skimmers this is not applicable.

[JCTewks]

The MSX skimmers have drain lines built in. Most external NW skimmers have drains built into the cup too!

I agree with Todd, NW's are finicky about dirty necks...but having a dirty neck won't completely stop production, only slow it down...and that's not so bad on a long vacation. Typically when people leave their tanks in the care of friends and family for vacations feeding recomendations are less than YOU actually feed, so the skimmer should be fine for 2 week vac's.


I would avoid a beckett skimmer...they are notoriously finicky!

[Todd March]

Jeff, do all the MSX's have drains--I don't remember seeing one the little 160 I saw...?

Anyway, these are good solid meshwheel skimmers, with a lot of bang for the buck. You can see them HERE (http://www.marinesolutionsinc.com/catalog/Protein-Skimmers-MSX-Skimmers/c22_48/index.html). The Sicce pumps can be a little finicky, and MW's react like Beckets to any oil in the water (foam productions stops), including your hands, but they offer great amounts of air in a small pump that uses little electricity...

[JCTewks]

AFAIK, all msx skimmers have drains....and they are now shipping with both the MW, and a pinwheel!!! my experienc is that ALL skimmers will lose their head temporarily from certain things in the water...it's not just a beckett and MW thing!

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12977905#post12977905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
my experienc is that ALL skimmers will lose their head temporarily from certain things in the water...it's not just a beckett and MW thing!

Yes, of course, but a recirc. NW will regain foam in 20 minutes, an in sump NW may tank 40-60 minutes; my ATI BM 160 MW took 2+hours, and a friend's MRC Becket can take all morning...

I don't think of 20-60 minutes as a problem, but from 8AM till 1PM, well that's different... Not the end of the world, but I always have my hand in the tank or sump so damn much that it makes me very annoyed...

[Doahh]

For a 90 gallon reef with a $700 Max...
H&S A150-F2001
It's the external rated for 225 gallons... Beautiful skimmer

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12978072#post12978072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
For a 90 gallon reef with a $700 Max...
H&S A150-F2001
It's the external rated for 225 gallons... Beautiful skimmer

His DISPLAY tank is 90g's, his entire system is 150g's (read da whole post, dahlink)... I think the A150 is a fine skimmer, but for a 150g, a little small... If it were my system, at 150g's, I would like the A200 with the Eheim 1260--dependability plus...

[LobsterOfJustice]

Thanks so much for the help guys. I have to say, I have not noticed my beckett being particularly finicky - but for optimum performance I do have to turn the valves on air intake and water level just a hair every few days. Maybe I don't notice it losing head because I run it so wet - usually just 1"-3" from the top of the water level in the skimmer into the cup. But if other skimmers are even less finicky, then I should have nothing to worry about.

I think I would definitely buy used.

[Doahh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12978085#post12978085 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Todd March
His DISPLAY tank is 90g's, his entire system is 150g's (read da whole post, dahlink)... I think the A150 is a fine skimmer, but for a 150g, a little small... If it were my system, at 150g's, I would like the A200 with the Eheim 1260--dependability plus...
I did... H&S Rates their skimmers conservatively and a 225 gallon rated Recirculating skimmer will do the job...

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12978116#post12978116 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doahh
I did... H&S Rates their skimmers conservatively and a 225 gallon rated Recirculating skimmer will do the job...

I don't think of H&S or Deltec as having conservative ratings (I think the only skimmer company with truly conservative ratings is ER). I just would not be comfortable with a 6", 350 lph of air (AB 2001, as measured by hobbyists here on RC) skimmer on this big of a system. Maybe a lightly stocked tank, okay, but the way I like to heavy stock, naw, it's too small and I would go up to the Eheim (850-ish lph air) and larger 8" diameter chamber...

[boxfishpooalot]

there is nothing wrong with your current skimmer. Jumping to a new skimmer will result in what..... Skimmers all work the same. Air, hydrophobic molecules attach, and they go out as a foam.

The only problem with skimmers these days is too turbulent, and too little air flow.

Whats the problem that causes you to want a new skimmer? Besides a beckett skimmer uses as much as a nw will with the same kind of air-water injection rate.

What you have is a high powered water filter. water and air. Have you seen the nw..

[LobsterOfJustice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12978222#post12978222 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxfishpooalot
there is nothing wrong with your current skimmer. Jumping to a new skimmer will result in what..... Skimmers all work the same. Air, hydrophobic molecules attach, and they go out as a foam.

The only problem with skimmers these days is too turbulent, and too little air flow.

Whats the problem that causes you to want a new skimmer? Besides a beckett skimmer uses as much as a nw will with the same kind of air-water injection rate.

What you have is a high powered water filter. water and air. Have you seen the nw..

Definite problems are high electric usage and taking up space externally. Mainly, I am just wondering if there is something better out there - I really am not sure if my skimmer is good or "doing well" because I don't have anything to compare it to. I get 1-2 measuring cups of dark liquid skimmate a week, but it is a bit inconsistent because it changes every time I clean it - I reset the water level and air intake.

My tank has never been as successful as some others I see on here - for the amount of time and money I put into my tank, it really should be phenomenal. I see that beckett skimmers arent used very much and all skimmers mentioned these days are needlewheel. That has to mean something.

[Todd March]

I think the biggest factor for NW and now MW skimmers overtaking all else is simply the drastically lower electrical usage. And I do think that NW's are a bit "neater" about skimming; that is to say that a lot Beckets tend to collect gunk in the neck that while removed from the system, never makes it to the collection cup. A NW tends to get it up and out, into the collection cup. And I do think people like seeing the dark nasty liquid skimmate in the cup of NW's, as opposed to the thick sludge on the neck of a Becket. Both work, getting the crap out of your tank, so it's really 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Another factor is the Becket injector--it needs to be cleaned regularly, and can clog--these are just not issues with needlewheels...

[OCEAN SIZE]

ATB Small Cone
ATI Bubble Master 200
MSX 200
Deltec APF 600 or AP701
H&S A200
Euro Reef RS 130

The Reeflo Orca would be a good skimmer, but they are evidently loud and use a lot of power.

I'd vote for H+S, especially a used one. Alternately, get the cheapest BK you can find, or even a used or blem EuroReef.

Becketts are supposedly powerful skimmers; though Ive never seen one in operation, I know public aquariums use them.

But they seem to use more power than needed, after considering getting one too, personally I'm looking at an ATB myself.

I'm a fan of recirc skimmers with bubble plates, preferably in a cone shape. That narrows my own list down. After seeing premium skimmers in action, and running my EuroReef for many years, I'm convinced of the value of the high end skimmers.

Some skimmers have overflow built into the collection cups, and you could always add that drain yourself if your skimmer doesn't have one.

Maybe you should take time and look at local reef club members' skimmers, and check out different models at local shops to really get a sense of what you want to invest in?

Don't settle for anything less than quality The Lobster Of Justice demands. :smokin:

[indydog1]

i have a precision marine bullet 2 running on my system. it is external, but it can be run internal. i use a hyperflow 32 for it. it is a beckett style skimmer. so you are already familiar with how they operate. and i paid 400 new for it. plus pump, which i already had. it has thwe drain in the collection cup and is rated well above my current 90, but i got it now for my upgrade to a 220. just my .02 good luck choosing the right one for you.

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12978098#post12978098 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
I have to say, I have not noticed my beckett being particularly finicky - but for optimum performance I do have to turn the valves on air intake and water level just a hair every few days.

This is the definition of finicky, Lobster! Don't get me wrong, while NW's are much closer to set and forget, NO skimmer is truly set and forget. With a NW you will need to sometimes futz with the water/foam level in the neck, but often that can go for months without being altered (again, depends on the skimmer--meshwheels seem to be more finicky)...

NW's are easier to live with--no doubt about it...

[LobsterOfJustice]

Makes sense - the main reason I need to readjust is that I have to shut off the skimmer to do my cleaning (especially the injector lol) and I need to fine tune every time I switch it off then on.

[boxfishpooalot]

well enough said. One thing i can say is if you do get a new skimmer, get one with more air flow than you have now, and more water intake.

If you can get that with lower electricity and $ is in your budget, go for it! but I still think your going to have a hard time. :)

And your tank is not as amazing as others tanks not because of your skimmer. Its either your too picky, or something else is wrong. do you realise how much stuff can go wrong in an aquarium? Especially the technical side? For example, you may know already but a ph meter held beside lights will show drastically lower ph. The hanna po4 meter can read really low po4 but a small fingerprint and a tiny air bubble inside it will cause it to read .50 ppm po4 higher! An alkalinity test kit can be confounded by the simple addition of a carbon source like vinegar. The acetate will show up in the alkalinity sample and make you think its higher alk than it really is!

So tell me is your systems tech working properly?! how do you know for sure!? think.

:)

[LobsterOfJustice]

How do I know how much air my current skimmer takes?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12984288#post12984288 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxfishpooalot
your too picky

yes :)

[LobsterOfJustice]

How do you control the water level in these skimmers? And are there valves on the airline input (or are they even necessary)?

With my beckett I adjust the air input to achieve the consistency I want in the body and the height of the head of foam. Then I adjust the water level so the top of the head of the foam is popping into the collection cup. If it's not adjusted correctly the skimmate either won't make it into the collection cup and ends up all over the neck (too low), or the skimmer overflows (too high). How does all this work with a NW?

[Todd March]

Varies from skimmer to skimmer, but you adjust the amount of water exiting the skimmer which raises or lowers the foam column in the skimmer; some have gate valves, some have telescoping standpipes, some have "wedge" standpipes, where you twist the exit pipe (which has holes in it at the exit elbow) back and forth to control the exit flow...

A few NW's also have an air flow control--H&S and Deltec come to mind, but this is often because these skimmers have a very turbulent mix of air and water in the reactor chamber (similiar to a Becket) and benefit from such a control of air flow. Newer designs with bubble diffuser plates tend to have less turbulence and the trend is toward as much air flow as possible, so modern NW skimmers rarely have the air flow adjusted--they tend to run full steam and you never adjust the air...

So for the majority of NW's you simply control everything by regulating only the amount of water leaving the skimmer. You want the foam head high in the neck or wet skimming, and low in the neck for dry skimming.

[boxfishpooalot]

well thats just it with a beckett. Its unvariable in air intake. However it does push a lot of air. Some skimmers need many pumps to get as much air as a beckett will. When you get a new skimmer, with the same air, the amount of pumps will probably match the beckett in electrical costs. Get an air flow meter to check it.

Think of something else to spend your cash on. like a wavebox or something.

[LobsterOfJustice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12989714#post12989714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxfishpooalot
well thats just it with a beckett. Its unvariable in air intake. However it does push a lot of air. Some skimmers need many pumps to get as much air as a beckett will. When you get a new skimmer, with the same air, the amount of pumps will probably match the beckett in electrical costs. Get an air flow meter to check it.

Think of something else to spend your cash on. like a wavebox or something.

I'm trying to find a way of saying this without sounding like a smart-***, but is there a reason I see you are using a recirculating needlewheel on your tank and not a beckett?

[boxfishpooalot]

Why do i use a nw? Well because I dont want to put out cash for a beckett right now and because skimming is over rated.

more Biology less technology. :)

[LobsterOfJustice]

Todd, is there a reason the DAS skimmer is not on your list? I read through the entire thread on the DAS skimmers (68 pages!) and everyone seems happy with them, there were even a few deltec owners comparing them to the AP600. Apparently it is a deltec design using the same pumps pulling the same amount of air.

[chewie]

He made reference to the Aquabee pumps that come with the DAS line.

DAS/Deltec/H&S use the aquabee 2000 on some models(all of the DAS use them) and they're not up to snuff with other comparable N/W's

I got 360LPH out of the ones on my DAS EX2. (not the claimed 500LPH).

I ran a MRC MR-2 for a few years. I was happy with it until like you I started looking into N/W's.

I loved the performance of my MR2 but 3 reasons led me to ditch it.

1. I compared a weeks amount of skimmate from the MR2 with a ER CS8-2 and the ER pulled more skimmate out, although slightly wetter. (I only got to borrow it for a week so I didn't tinker with it much) This was also before any mods were known about the Sedra pump that came with it 5-6 years ago. Nowadays I think it would be MUCH better. (35w vs. 180w)

2. To clean the collection cup on the ER takes about 1 minute. I spent 2 minutes just unscrewing thumbscrews on the MR2(non keyhole flanges). Also dialing in the vater level is a snap compared to the beckett.

3. The electricity, and air intake noise of the beckett sealed the deal for me. But good lord those becketts can draw a TON of air. Easily 2000-2500 LPH.


I think you'd better get at least an 8" x 24" body to compare to the MRC MR2. I doubt it would be worth getting anything smaller.

BFpooalot made a good point though, it is not going to make your tank TOTM by just changing skimmers though.

[LobsterOfJustice]

chewie and boxfish, you have both mentioned the becketts can pull more air. But the way mine is currently running, I dont have the air intake anywhere close to being all the way open. It seems to me that amount of air pulled is not what it is all about. I'm going to make a wild guess that my air valve is around 1/2 open. Any more open and the skimmer overflows into the cup. So I'm not really sure I need all the extra air the becketts are apparently capable of pulling. Or maybe I'm just running my current skimmer incorrectly.

chewie, so in the end you did ditch your beckett in favor of a NW? Which would you suggest I would look into if I were to go that route?

[LobsterOfJustice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13013209#post13013209 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chewie
He made reference to the Aquabee pumps that come with the DAS line.

Hmm, I see. However, that was in reference to the H&S 150, which has only one recirc pump and would be comparable to the DAS EX-1. I was looking at the DAS EX-2 which would be more comparable to the H&S 200.

But if you all are saying these pumps aren't all that, than I shouldnt really be looking at DAS, H&S, or deltec, right?

[chewie]

Except for the models that use the Eheim 1260.

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13013517#post13013517 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
Hmm, I see. However, that was in reference to the H&S 150, which has only one recirc pump and would be comparable to the DAS EX-1. I was looking at the DAS EX-2 which would be more comparable to the H&S 200.

But if you all are saying these pumps aren't all that, than I shouldnt really be looking at DAS, H&S, or deltec, right? nothing wrong with the AB 2001[not ab 2000 that some seem to think the das use].

A ex-2 would be perfect for your tank.

[chewie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13013374#post13013374 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
chewie and boxfish, you have both mentioned the becketts can pull more air. But the way mine is currently running, I dont have the air intake anywhere close to being all the way open. It seems to me that amount of air pulled is not what it is all about. I'm going to make a wild guess that my air valve is around 1/2 open. Any more open and the skimmer overflows into the cup. So I'm not really sure I need all the extra air the becketts are apparently capable of pulling. Or maybe I'm just running my current skimmer incorrectly.

chewie, so in the end you did ditch your beckett in favor of a NW? Which would you suggest I would look into if I were to go that route? Not really. I sold that tank setup, and the MR-2 and took a big tank break from the hobby. When I got back in, I found a smokin deal on an 8" ER skimmer. I DIY'd the Eheim pump, and cut the skimmer down to 28" to fin under my stand. I'm into the whole skimmer about $400.

You mention that you're not the DIY type, so I'd suggest looking for a used H&S 200 with the Eheim 1260, or an ER RC180.

If you can find a used ATB don't hesitate to JUMP ON IT ASAP!

As for the beckett,

You can run the air wide open and adjust the gate valve but it is best(at least for mine) to dial back the air to around 80% for smaller bubbles.

[chewie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13013743#post13013743 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
nothing wrong with the AB 2001[not ab 2000 that some seem to think the das use].

A ex-2 would be perfect for your tank.

Well my EX-2 was an older model, with 1 AB2001, and an old AB2000.

I didn't get to test the AB2001 as it was dead before I got my meter. The older AB2000 still works fine, but only pulls 360LPH.

[USC-fan]

thats strange because DAS has only used one skimmer pump. Are you sure you have a DAS skimmer?

The AB2001 pulls around 460-480 LPH at 13 watts. This has been tested many, many times on this forum.

[chewie]

Hmmmm.

The pump that doesn't work is a DAS branded Aquabee 2001 pump.

It may be the OLD deltec model, but the pumps, body, fittings are all the same.


Have you tested your own pumps?

[JRaquatics]

That's odd I couln't get my Das aquaB 2001 to pull more than 10scfh on a good day. Usually pulling 200LPH. I have also personally tested other skimmers with the AB pump, oddly they all reported the same numbers (DAS, H&S and Deltec). Did the skimmers perform and the users happy with them? yes and yes, just disappointing in the air pull #s.

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13013939#post13013939 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
That's odd I couln't get my Das aquaB 2001 to pull more than 10scfh on a good day. Usually pulling 200LPH. I have also personally tested other skimmers with the AB pump, oddly they all reported the same numbers (DAS, H&S and Deltec). Did the skimmers perform and the users happy with them? yes and yes, just disappointing in the air pull #s. http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/4776/bullshitmeterdp5.gif

[gcarroll]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13014024#post13014024 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by USC-fan
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/4776/bullshitmeterdp5.gif Holy cow, for the first time I agree with USC-fan!:D I too call BS.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13013939#post13013939 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
Did the skimmers perform and the users happy with them? yes and yes, just disappointing in the air pull #s. BS because with the disappointing air pull #s, there is no way you could honestly state that "yes" the skimmer performs. :lol:

[chewie]

USC-Fan,



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13013893#post13013893 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chewie
Hmmmm.


Have you tested your own pumps?

[JRaquatics]

I really don't care if you think it is BS. I am stating my experiences with the AB pump. From my experiences they are not a great pump. It is well documtned that the King pumps used on the AquaEuro skimmers pulled 5-8scfh (disappointing air numbers) and yet they still seem to have satisfied users. Check the AquaEuro 400 thread were the numbers of both pumps were documented.

Here is the pump. Is this the same one in question?
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/rvision/aquaB2.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/rvision/aqauB.jpg

Does low air pull numbers make them bad performers? No. Because When you look at NW pumps you also have to consider the air to water ratio, as AB have a good ratio IMO as do the mesh modded sicces. Both not the greatest pumps but for what they are they do perform.

[LobsterOfJustice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13013700#post13013700 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chewie
Except for the models that use the Eheim 1260.

Which models would those be?

JR, which pumps are you reccomending I look into if not the aquabee, king, or sicce?

[JRaquatics]

Definitely not the kings. Sicces are great for performance and budget but does require more than average maintenance. I prefer Eheim or Laguna (askoll) pumps. H&S, Deltec, Warner marine and Euro Reef use Eheims. Bubble King and ATB use Laguna pumps. It really depends on what your looking for in a skimmer. Are you looking for something that is almost maintenance free or if you don't mind modding or tinkering? Budget friendly vs quality construction? Performance? Internal or external? energy efficient? Sound?

I would suggest stating your top requirement in a skimmer and search to find one that meet the majority of those requirement. You will always get someones recommendation but what works for someone else may not work for you. If you come up with a list of skimmers that fit your needs you can then ask about others experiences with them to help you narrow down your selection.

[chewie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13014823#post13014823 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
Which models would those be?

JR, which pumps are you reccomending I look into if not the aquabee, king, or sicce?

H&S a200 1260

Deltec 701, 851

ER RC180

[Todd March]

I too have heard that the AB 2001's pullm around 300 lph on the H&S skimmers...?

I think the DAS skimmers are fine skimmers, as noted by the many happy posts...

I also think the Octopus Pro 250 with the Laguna pumps (Askoll) is a really nice skimmer for around $500--it's what I would check out if I was on a budget...

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13014087#post13014087 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gcarroll
Holy cow, for the first time I agree with USC-fan!:D I too call BS.

BS because with the disappointing air pull #s, there is no way you could honestly state that "yes" the skimmer performs. :lol: :beer:

[USC-fan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13014247#post13014247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JRaquatics
I really don't care if you think it is BS. I am stating my experiences with the AB pump. From my experiences they are not a great pump. It is well documtned that the King pumps used on the AquaEuro skimmers pulled 5-8scfh (disappointing air numbers) and yet they still seem to have satisfied users. Check the AquaEuro 400 thread were the numbers of both pumps were documented.

Here is the pump. Is this the same one in question?
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/rvision/aquaB2.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/rvision/aqauB.jpg

Does low air pull numbers make them bad performers? No. Because When you look at NW pumps you also have to consider the air to water ratio, as AB have a good ratio IMO as do the mesh modded sicces. Both not the greatest pumps but for what they are they do perform. You are just wrong on just about everything in your post....

I also don't believe if you had an ab2001 that is was working correctly. These pumps have been around for over 10years, to claim they pull anything close to 1/2 the specs make you look foolish.

[JRaquatics]

I went through the entire DAS thread and have not found one person with a verified air pull # (pic). I also saw that Luke33 was asking about these #s as well with no response as a few other posts about low airpull #s. I have tested other AquaB pumps and they all seem to be pulling around the same amount of air and nothing close to the so called 500LPH. Have you even tested yours, Got pics?

[FinsReef]

JR and Chewie,
How is this picture for you.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/finsreef/A150air-flow.jpg

That is an Aquabee 2000/1 running on an H&S A150 that was taken over 3 years ago.
This pictures have been on Reef Central several times. If someone has an H&S version Aquabee 2000/1 pump that only pulls 200 to 350 lph of air, then it is not performing like it should. Please have the person that owns the pumps to contact me so I can get the pump working properly for them.
JR, I would not expect that pump to full 500lph or air for at least two reasons.
1. the pump has obvious deposits in it, an has not been cleaned recently.
2. The output on that pump is more restrictive than the output on the H&S version. The intake dia could also be smaller, I would not know unless I spec it.

I will not speak for what airflow DAS, or Deltec has, but I can assure you that 350lph is not the norm for H&S.
Also H&S uses 4 different models of Aquabee pumps on it's skimmers. AB1000, AB2000, AB2000/1 and AB5000. We also have the AB500 and AB3000 in service on our calcium RX's. They have been very dependable with less than 10 defective pumps in the 4 years that I have been importing H&S.
Guys, when discussing H&S, please use accurate information, and if you do not know what the accurate info is, please just don't pass hearsay or make something up.

[LobsterOfJustice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13015140#post13015140 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chewie
H&S a200 1260

Deltec 701, 851

ER RC180

Is this correct?

H&S - $1,300
Deltec - $1,238, $1,238
Euroreef - $1,098

I could buy TWO DAS EX-3 for the price of some of these skimmers. The EX-3 has three recirc pumps while all these skimmers have one. So even if these pumps are better, are they 6 times better?

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, it's a bit of a moot point anyway since I cant afford those skimmers.

[LobsterOfJustice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13015742#post13015742 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Todd March
I too have heard that the AB 2001's pullm around 300 lph on the H&S skimmers...?

I think the DAS skimmers are fine skimmers, as noted by the many happy posts...

I also think the Octopus Pro 250 with the Laguna pumps (Askoll) is a really nice skimmer for around $500--it's what I would check out if I was on a budget...

So you think one laguna NW feed is better than two aquabee NW recircs (not being facetious - really asking - I dont know about these pumps at all)?

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13016553#post13016553 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FinsReef
Guys, when discussing H&S, please use accurate information, and if you do not know what the accurate info is, please just don't pass hearsay or make something up.


Brian, I don't think this is very fair. While I realize that you are the US dealer for H&S, I don't think anything hearsay, or even inaccurate, has been posted in this thread. I have done much research on many different skimmers here on RC, and one of the only people who ever measured the airflow of an A150 and posted the results talked about getting something in the 300-350 range. And if the H&S AB's are as good and dependable as you say, then it shouldn't have been "not performing as it should be"...

Personally, the many posts I found in my research here on RC regarding the quirky and problematic AB 2001 pumps (which seemed focused on some faulty "flap") on Deltec products alone, was enough to turn me to AB's on any product, including the H&S line as well as the KZ Revolution skimmer (and yes, I realize that they are all modded differently by each manufacturer)...

Obviously the AB 2001 is a decent reliable pump--it has been used for many years by many manufacturers, and worked on many, many people's tanks. No one can dispute that. But an Eheim it is not. And further, Brian, if the AB can't hold it's own, if it can't hold up to a little criticism without posts such as yours (which honestly I think are out of place in a hobbyist to hobbyist thread) then something is seriously wrong considering how many of these units have been sold and are in operation...

[Todd March]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13017649#post13017649 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
So you think one laguna NW feed is better than two aquabee NW recircs (not being facetious - really asking - I dont know about these pumps at all)?

Yes! I would take a single Laguna/Askoll pump over twin AB's any day of the week...

Lobster, the DAS EX-2 is a great skimmer--no doubts about that. Plus it looks like a Deltec at a fraction of the cost (I almost bought a an EX-1 myself). I think the cup is a little small, but since you want to install a drain, that would be a moot point. Don't forget too that the DAS is a recirculating skimmer and well need a seperate feed line from your overflow or a dedicated feed pump...

Honestly, for the same money I would really look at the Octopus Pro 250 with the Laguna pump. This skimmer has a much more updated design (bubble diffuser plate, air muffler), a fantastic pump, and is a really, really good bargain. I highly recommend doing some research here on RC and learning more about it--it might be just about perfect for your needs...

[JCTewks]

FWIW, a single laguna would produce as much air as 4 ab's...and that's the smaller model (the 1500) :D

[LobsterOfJustice]

Thanks everyone for the help, I really apprecieate it. Guess I have some more homework to do...

[gcarroll]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13018074#post13018074 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
FWIW, a single laguna would produce as much air as 4 ab's...and that's the smaller model (the 1500) :D Exacty! My ATB Airstar 1500 (Laguna 1500) does a tad over 2200 lph. There is nothing wrong with the AB. There are pumps that perform better. I personally don't like the cost/replacement parts aspect along with the limited availability of the AB pumps. That is my primary reason for never recommending them. They seem to charge Ehiem price for an Aquabee in the US. Not really fair if you ask me.

[chewie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13016553#post13016553 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FinsReef
JR and Chewie,

Guys, when discussing H&S, please use accurate information, and if you do not know what the accurate info is, please just don't pass hearsay or make something up.
FinsReef,

I never said anything negative about your pumps, as I have never tested one. I did not make anything up. I was talking about the AB pumps that came with my EX-2. I do not own 1 of your skimmers, but I have seen a few. In fact, I have been promoting your skimmer line.

All I'm trying to get at is that the DAS line of Aquabees do not live up to the advertised #'s. And I still haven't seen a DAS AB pump pull 500LPH. Have you?

I'm still waiting patiently for USC-fan to answer my question. :D

[chewie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13017577#post13017577 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
Is this correct?

H&S - $1,300
Deltec - $1,238, $1,238
Euroreef - $1,098

I could buy TWO DAS EX-3 for the price of some of these skimmers. The EX-3 has three recirc pumps while all these skimmers have one. So even if these pumps are better, are they 6 times better?

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, it's a bit of a moot point anyway since I cant afford those skimmers.

Yes.

I was recommending you find a used one.

[LobsterOfJustice]

I'm looking around and many of the skimmers look similar to one another. So what I'm getting from this is that it's largely about the pump. And from the discussion above, it seems that (arguably) the best pumps are eheim and laguna, with sicce, aquabee, and sedra pumps being other decent options, but not the best.

Does that sound right, or way off base?

[LobsterOfJustice]

A few places I am seeing the Octopus Pro 250 being sold with the "skim-rite" pump, is that another name for the laguna, or a different version of the skimmer? Also, I was looking around aquarium specialty and saw the 10" DDNW-250, which looks like a beast, but uses "OTP" pumps... opinions?

I think the reason I am having such a hard time with this is that some of these skimmers just look way too simple to cost hundreds of dollars. I know performance isn't necessarily related to how bad*** a skimmer looks, but still...

[Todd March]

You're right on the money with the NW's, Lobster, right on base about the pumps. The latest deveolpment with skimmers is a "bubble diffusor plate" which is a plate with many small holes right over the pump that forces the bubbles through it. This forces a turbulent mix below the plate, and then as the bubbles rise through the plate, a less turbulent reaction chamber. While this has not been proven to be "better" than the traditional tuurbulent reaction chamber (ala Deltec and H&S, or Euro-Reef) it is definatley the trend for skimmers...

Cone shapes are the latest development, with ATB and KZ offering them at this time. While almost all skimmers are cone shaped to a degree--narrowing at the neck--cone shaped skimmers take it to a extreme degree. I have a cone skimmer, and really think it's effective. I'll post a picture below of a modern "cutting edge" cone skimmer for you to see...

The Octo does come with a couple of pump options, and they have been changed recently. I would make sure to shop around for the one with the Laguan/Askoll pump...


http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/atbusa/0006.jpg

[Todd March]

And here is a picture to illustrate why some skimmers cost more than others. That cone skimmer I pictured above fully comes apart for very thorough and effective cleaning. Because of the increased engineering and assembly factors to make a skimmer like this, only the most expensive skimmers offer this kind of build, but it's cool to see to explain why such skimmers cost so much more...


http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/atbusa/0081.jpg

[spsfreak]

Ah, ATB... great skimmer.... love my small cone.