Nitrates Help!!

[steelhead97]

Guys, I've tried a number of things to try to get my nitrates down to less than 10ppm. I've tried dosing with sugar, did not do much, i've been alternating water changes of 25% volume to as much as 35% volume weekly. At this point the tank does not seem to want to drop below 20ppm. I got it down to 20ppm for a week but it's back up closer to 30ppm now. Any other ideas? I do not have an algae problem and the rocks are all mature LR, I do have a lot of corals and fish and I do feed them 2-3 times a day with small amounts so everything is consumed rather than hitting the sand. I'm thinking of trying the vodka method soon. Any product that I can get, like media for filters that I can use? I have a 50 gallon sump withh chaeto and sand bed. My setup is a 190 gallon tank with deep sand bed.

[useskaforevil]

have you noticed any ill effects? 10ppm even 30ppm isn't really anything to worry about.

[froggy4112]

you dont mention a skimmer... are you using one?

[jab502]

Do you ever vacuum or change out the sandbed? I never used to and when I went bare bottom my nitrates went straight to zero. What kind of flow do you have? Below are some ideas of what could be causing it. I am no expert but any of the below could be contributing factors.

1. Low flow allowing detritus to build in the sandbed

2. Overfeeding: Even if it seems you are feeding small amounts I would bet the tank is being overfed. 2-3 times per day is totally unnecessary. Your tank only needs fed once every 2-3 days. I would say cut the feeding back and this is very likely to help.

3. Overstocking. What livestock do you keep and how big is your tank?

4. Skimmer? as alluded to by froggy.

5. Clean up crew. I suspect you are getting alot of food/organics stuck in your sandbed. Do you have adequate snails and crabs to help with this?

Hope this helps and good luck.

[steelhead97]

Yes I have a precision Marine bullet 2 skimmer it does seem to skim out a lot of junk in the column, the water quality is crystal clear, I have 4 Koralia fours, 1 Koralia 3 and 1 Koralia 2 circulating the water in the tank along with a UV sterilizer which is inside the tank as a recirculating pump so I think i'm pushing enough water in the tank. The return pump on the sump is pushing 1200gph through the sump and back into the tank. One thing I've not done is clean out sandbed when i do water changes. I've got a lot of live rocks and some corals on the sand bed so I figured the DSB and regular water changes would do the trick. Aren't the DSB supposed to help reduce nitrates?? I feed the fish a mix of things, frozen food, flakes, spectrum pellets. As for cleanup crew, I have 40 margarita snails, 15 turbos and two tiger cowries. I also have a sea hare to clean up the algae which is non existent. The sea hare I feed a small piece or nori every few days. Do you guys know of any filter material i can put in the tank to get the nitrates down? I have carbon in a sock in the sump. I've tried algone and didn't see that have much of an effect.

[jab502]

I was wrong. I am at a loss on this one. I would love to hear from somebody who really knows their stuff. With all of those water changes I don't see how you can be getting nitrates.

[Tang Salad]

What are you using for your source water?

[illal]

how many fish do u have? and id still say cut back on feeding (no more than once a day) what type of test kit are u using? have u tried any other brand tests?

[livingcorals]

Few questions,
Did you make your sump? (what kind of glue)
Do you make your own water?
Keep in mind when you make a water change your also getting rid of the good water.

Over the last few days I have talked with a few LFS and kind of true that if you put think it was called, athlien coral. Kind of like a big xenia coral in your tank it can take out nitrate. But was also told to put it in your refuge instead. Any1 else know of this??

[Keiths_Reefs]

I think you are refering to Anthelia which like xenia has not been proved to reduce nitrates.

I'd suggest a fuge with macro if possible to suck up some of the nutrients.

I'd second that it is likely coming from your sand bed or possibly your rocks. If you take a turkey baster to the rocks does it knock up a lot od detritus? Some people say you can check if the sand bed is the issue by getting a water sample from just above the sand for the nitrate test. You might give that a go.

[livingcorals]

Yup thats the name of it. Anthelia thanks

[kimm]

How much LR do you have? Is this your main method of filtration? If so could be that you do not have enough. Try vaccuming out your sand. Otherwise, I will agree that it is probably overfeeding, especially with frozen foods which create more nitrates than flake. How many and what kind of fish? Do you have to feed frozen everyday? I switched mine to flake everyday, 1X, with frozen mysis as an occasional treat.

[Leandrae]

Do you use glass tops by chance? When I had my 90, it had glass tops on it and I really feel it contributed greatly to my nitrate problem. Once the DSB converts the nitrate, the glass tops trap the gasses in.

How many inches deep is your sand bed? It really should be a bare minimum of 3 inches to be a DSB. 4 or more inches even better.

I'm not a big fan of syphoning the sandbed. If it's a new sandbed and you can dedicate yourself to syphoning it off with every water change, great! Syphoning an older sandbed though could conceivably make your problem even worse by releasing some nasty gunk.

-Janel

[limitdown]

You should consider getting a sulfur denitrator. Don't mess with the carbon-based ones because you'll need to "feed" it with sugar water or alcohol daily. Sulfur-based denitrators are practically "set and forget". I have a Schuran unit and my trates are undetectable.

Here's a link to a DIY thread. You can also pick one up from midwest aquatics.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1400576

[steelhead97]

My sandbed is not even all the way around, some areas it's 4 inches, others it's 6 but I would say on average if I were to level it out throughout the tank it would be 5 inches deep. I have the following fish

Yellow tang
Sailfin
Purple tang
Blue Hippo
Flame Angel
Bicolor Angel
lyretail anthias
bartlett anthias
red coris wrasse
mysteri wrasse
six line wrasse
4 line wrasse
sand goby X2
lawnmower blenny
mated pair GSM clowns
small blue damsel

Rocks I have 275 lbs of live rock mature rocks from tanks 2+ years old. All have purple coralline growth. I have not tried turkey baster method but there is a lot of circulation in tank due to all the koralias and water coming in from the sump.

One of you guys said not to stir up an establish sandbed for fear of making it worse is this true? I know that every tank i've had I didn't dig down into the sandbed to clean it but only cleaned the top 2-3 inches and over time it would always develop green algae or bacteria growth of some kind in the sandbed and I was told this was good to have.

I will try feeding only once a day but the problem with that is my red coris only comes out in the evening so I may have to start feeding once only at night before I shut it down.

The sulfur denitrator sounds like what I need I will look into it, thanks much.

[illal]

what size tank?

[kimm]

if you don't vaccum the sand, do you have any snails or sand sifting starfish to help eat up some of the crap in the sand?
Maybe you should cut back on the frozen and focus more on the flake food. 18 fish is a lot, how big are those tangs and angels?
With a bioload like that it's no wonder you've got a nitrate issue.

[wargeneral]

I would get some Super Tonga Snails. Super Tonga's are awesome. Also try to get some Mangroves as well. A Sand sifting star would be good as well. Isnt that red coris wrasse not reef safe? Also if those sand gobies are stirring up the sand too much you might get nitrates. As well as a land slide on your live rock.

[IslandCrow]

I wouldn't recommend vaccuming a DSB. I wouldn't recommend it for any sand bed, actually. You may want to blow on it with a turkey baster just enough to gently stir the sand. That will get the detritus up into the waterflow. I'd also suggest blowing on the rocks with a turkey baster or powerhead on occasion just to get the detritus out of the cracks and crevices. It may actually make things worse short term, but in the long term, I believe it really helps.

With the fish you have, I can understand why you're feeding multiple times a day, especially for the anthias. That is a lot of fish. I'm assuming you have a pretty big tank. Sand dwelling snails and a refugium are very good suggestions. If you aren't already, you may want to try running carbon. It wasn't until I started running carbon that my nitrates finally went to 0. That said, I'm pretty sure carbon has no significant direct effect on nitrates, so I'm assuming it was either cooincidence or some indirect effect. Other than that, I'd say limit the flake food and rinse out your frozen food before putting in your tank. The liquid most frozen food is packed in is pretty high in phosphates and/or nitrates.

[Leandrae]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12992129#post12992129 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kimm
if you don't vaccum the sand, do you have any snails or sand sifting starfish to help eat up some of the crap in the sand?
Maybe you should cut back on the frozen and focus more on the flake food. 18 fish is a lot, how big are those tangs and angels?
With a bioload like that it's no wonder you've got a nitrate issue.

I've heard that flake foods have a pretty substantial amount of phosphates in it. Frozen food does as well. At least with frozen food, you can rinse it, so to speak. Thaw it in a small amount of tank water and then strain it out, pouring additional tank water through to it rinse it (maybe a quarter cup of water). This way the phosphates are rinsed out and not going into your tank. Kinda hard to rinse flake food though...it would fall apart.

I know your original concern is nitrates and not phosphates, but the phosphates can really fuel the algae.

As far as stirring the sand bed, I never stir mine. When I emptied out the 90, just the act of picking the rocks out of the sand made the water really nasty dark and gunky. The idea of releasing any of that into the water column by stirring gives me the willies. The idea of a DSB is to create anerobic zones where the nitrate eating bacteria can do their thing. Stirring up the sand bed disrupts this and will kill of those particular bacteria. At least this is my understanding of it. Using a turkey baster to blow off he very top layer to get the detrius off the bed should be alright I would think.

The very top layer of my current sandbed is kept stirred up by burrowing snails and a sea hare that actually spends a lot of time eating and pooping sand. He'll be getting a new home soon though...I don't think there's enough in there for him to eat now that the algae cycle seems to be done for the moment at least.

-Janel

[Leandrae]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12993303#post12993303 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by IslandCrow
I wouldn't recommend vaccuming a DSB. I wouldn't recommend it for any sand bed, actually. You may want to blow on it with a turkey baster just enough to gently stir the sand. That will get the detritus up into the waterflow. I'd also suggest blowing on the rocks with a turkey baster or powerhead on occasion just to get the detritus out of the cracks and crevices. It may actually make things worse short term, but in the long term, I believe it really helps.

With the fish you have, I can understand why you're feeding multiple times a day, especially for the anthias. That is a lot of fish. I'm assuming you have a pretty big tank. Sand dwelling snails and a refugium are very good suggestions. If you aren't already, you may want to try running carbon. It wasn't until I started running carbon that my nitrates finally went to 0. That said, I'm pretty sure carbon has no significant direct effect on nitrates, so I'm assuming it was either cooincidence or some indirect effect. Other than that, I'd say limit the flake food and rinse out your frozen food before putting in your tank. The liquid most frozen food is packed in is pretty high in phosphates and/or nitrates.

This is what I get for skimming the replies...obviously I second rinsing the food.

Also with carbon, just make sure you replace the carbon on a regular basis. Some carbons could leach the stuff it filters out back in again if left in for too long.

-Janel

[wargeneral]

It seems like phosban reactors are the norm now. If you dont have one I would get one. I run 1 now my phosphates are at .5 But I think I might need to run 1 more to get them to zero. Also I use to run chemipure elite in a phosban reactor. The water was crystal clear. I run chemipure in a hagen power filter but I think I will go back to running it in a phosban reactor. Whats cool about them is you can run them off 1 pump in a series.

[Paul_PSU]

I built one of these:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1400576

I was switching from a FOWLR to reef and my Nitrates where triple digits...:eek1:

It brought them down to 0 in about 6 weeks. I took it off line after about 2 months of keeping them at 0. Have been Nitrate free since.

I have heard people swear by this: http://www.fishsupply.com/s1ara-02151.html

It should bring the Nitrates down real quick if you are only at 10.

[kimm]

I have always vaccumed my sand and never ever had a bad reaction. It is only 1-2 inches. With only being 75G, it's not large enough to sustain a sand sifting star. Snails, yes. In my fisrt tank, a 40G, I always always had a nitrate problem. I know I was over feeding (newbie then) and only feeding frozen. I had 1 large fish and 3 small to med in size. When I upgraded, I went to flake only, no skimmer, replaced bioballs for LR (lots of it) 5 fish only, tons of flow and I run chemi pure elite always. I have been able to keep my nitrates at 5ppm (and I do that on purpose). No phosphates, could be the chemi pure. So far the best and easiest of tanks...I've had 3.

[TurboRobert]

I do not think your clean up crew is close to what you need. The recommended quantity is 1 to 2 per gallon. I have 100 snails and 100 blue crabs in my 125. Your food is building up in the rocks and sand and everywhere from your feeding habits. This creates nitrates. I would suggest buying a crew pack from either saltwater fish or liveaquaria. You can get the kit that has 100 of each for around $110.

[roghaj]

I added the red mangroves I bought off ebay one of those o-zone things. My nitrates were at feeding very little, now I feed 3 times as much and can't leave zero. I want my nitrates above .2 to keep my xenia alive. I have been increasing my feeding for a while, still at zero.

-Roger
180 Gallon Reef with a clam the size of your big head.

[wargeneral]

most people want lower nitrates but I guess in your case you want the opposite. Remove the mangroves maybe put them into another tank for now. Continue feeding like you are your nitrates will go up.

[roghaj]

I can't believe how many grammar errors were in my post. I am actaully a native english speaker.

Anyway, this is a problem that I LIKE to have. (the low nitrates, not the bad grammar):)