Confused on random deaths.

[EnderG60]

Ok so Ive been keeping zoo's for years now without much thought. But now im getting confused as to why some zoo's die in my tank.

Just as an example(and there are a few others that have done the same thing) My pink paly's. this is the 3rd different colony I have gotten that when I put it in the tank, they open up really well within a day max.

then a few days later(in this case about a week) I notice only half the colony is open, and a day or two later the colony will just stay closed and start getting brown algea on it.

I have tried moving it to different light and current locations but I think this one will go the same way the rest do and just die.

Im at a loss, this seems to happen to a few zoo's, paly's and some cloves as well. Not all just some. others go in and just start growing no problem.

Any idea's?

[Pufferpunk]

You might want to read the vitamin C thread--from the beginnimg (it's been split).

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12998533#post12998533 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pufferpunk
You might want to read the vitamin C thread--from the beginnimg (it's been split).

Alright... this is getting a little silly. Just because someone has a problem with zoanthids doesn't mean they should start dosing, or even consider dosing vitamin C. If someone is having a problem with their zoanthids there's a VERY good chance it's water chemistry related AND HAS NOTHING TO DO NWITH VITAMIN c. If it is water chemistry those parameters should be addressed before you go dumping something in the tank.

Ender, what are your parameters? Also, please give us an overall description of your tank and what type of equipment you're using. Flow, filtration, lighting, etc.

[Pufferpunk]

All I suggested was reading the thread. This is just the reason for dosing if he so chooses. Said he had been keeping them sucessfully for years. Peter, You have the totally wrong idea about dosing VC. It has nothing to do with corals lacking the vitamin.

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13004039#post13004039 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pufferpunk
All I suggested was reading the thread. This is just the reason for dosing if he so chooses. Said he had been keeping them sucessfully for years. Peter, You have the totally wrong idea about dosing VC. It has nothing to do with corals lacking the vitamin.

Puff, never once have I ever expected it had anythying to do with zoanthids lacking vitamin C. I have strong doubts that the zoanthids even use vitamin C in any way. I still feel it is acting as a carbon source and feuling bacteria. But, in reality, not one of us has a clue exactly what is happening with vitamin C dosing. To me that's all the more reason not to use it... Zoanthids can and will do great without a drop of vitamin C ever entering a tank. So, if Ender is having problems with zoanthids there's something wrong and it doesn't have a anything to do with vitamin C and can be fixed without vitamin C even entering into the discussion.

[Pufferpunk]

I'm sorry to be hijacking this thread at this point but if VC will help the problem (& has for hundreds), then why are you so against trying it? It's not like this guy is a newbie & has never been able to keep zoas at all or all of his zoas are dying--this is a good thing to try in his case, IMO.

[EnderG60]

58g tank
400w 14k blue line halide with 2 39w t5ho 50/50's
flow is two maxijet 1200's with hydors, and one maxijet 900 sureflow strapped to a sea swirl

Its a full mixed reef with everything from softies to SPS.

I keep tank peramiters at : and are currently

Temp - 79-82 : 80
Salinity 1.024-1.026 : 1.024
Calc - 360-420 : 400
Allk - 3-4 : 3.5
Ph 8-8.3 : 8.2
Mag 1200-1400 : 1300
Nitrate 1-5 : 2
Nitrite 0
Phosphate 0(according to sea chem kit, and GFO replaced when it shows anything)

I run carbon, GFO, skim and a sulphur reactor, 80+lbs of rock in the tank and 40+lbs in the fuge with cheato.

I dose 2 part by dosing pumps(which I recently started doing and am still find tuning, but I dont think its the problem since its been going on for over a year)

I also dose, seachem reef plus and trace which is added to my auto top off system.

Oh and I dose 3ml of seachem iodide every day(but I ran out last week and havent had time to get more yet)

and as I said its only certain kinds. I got some pinks and some orange zoo's from the same persons tank(and same spot in the tank) and the pinks are closed while the oranges are just fine.

[Pufferpunk]

Exact same thing was happpening to my tank.

[EnderG60]

damn that VC thread is way long and blocked at work(for drug content go figure) is there a condensed version or some cliff notes anywhere? Im kinda stretched for time these days.

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13004890#post13004890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EnderG60
58g tank
400w 14k blue line halide with 2 39w t5ho 50/50's
flow is two maxijet 1200's with hydors, and one maxijet 900 sureflow strapped to a sea swirl

Its a full mixed reef with everything from softies to SPS.

I keep tank peramiters at : and are currently

Temp - 79-82 : 80
Salinity 1.024-1.026 : 1.024
Calc - 360-420 : 400
Allk - 3-4 : 3.5
Ph 8-8.3 : 8.2
Mag 1200-1400 : 1300
Nitrate 1-5 : 2
Nitrite 0
Phosphate 0(according to sea chem kit, and GFO replaced when it shows anything)

I run carbon, GFO, skim and a sulphur reactor, 80+lbs of rock in the tank and 40+lbs in the fuge with cheato.

I dose 2 part by dosing pumps(which I recently started doing and am still find tuning, but I dont think its the problem since its been going on for over a year)

I also dose, seachem reef plus and trace which is added to my auto top off system.

Oh and I dose 3ml of seachem iodide every day(but I ran out last week and havent had time to get more yet)

and as I said its only certain kinds. I got some pinks and some orange zoo's from the same persons tank(and same spot in the tank) and the pinks are closed while the oranges are just fine.

A few things stand out to me as being possible problems.

1.) You mentioned getting brown algae on the polyps. Do you have any issues with microalgae elsewhere in the tank? Do you have any hermits of mithrax crabs as part of your cleanup crew?

2.) Between the trace elements, reef plus, and iodine, you're dumping a lot of things in the tank that aren't really needed. In addition to the chance of causing imbalances over time of various elements there's a chance they're fueling the algae. If it's my tank I do a large 50ish % water change and stop using those products. By the way, what is your water change regiment? Also, if you've ever used or use Seachem salt or any of their buffers there's a chance you could be getting false readings for your alkalinity due to the boron in a lot of their products.

3.) You say you have two maxijet 1200's with Hydors... I'm not sure what you mean, are you using Hydor Koralias as well or are you talking about some sort of mod for the 1200s. What's the ballpark for the total flow you have?

4.) How long have you had the polyps in question and how long did they look healthy before closing up? Where are the placed in relation to the light and were they acclimated slowly to your lights? That's quite a bit of light you have on that tank, and depending on where the ailing zoanthids are in relation to the light source it's certainly enough to stress out certain zoanthids. A lot of times a simple relocation to an area with different flow and light can make all the difference with a colony.

[EnderG60]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13005758#post13005758 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
A few things stand out to me as being possible problems.

1.) You mentioned getting brown algae on the polyps. Do you have any issues with microalgae elsewhere in the tank? Do you have any hermits of mithrax crabs as part of your cleanup crew?

2.) Between the trace elements, reef plus, and iodine, you're dumping a lot of things in the tank that aren't really needed. In addition to the chance of causing imbalances over time of various elements there's a chance they're fueling the algae. If it's my tank I do a large 50ish % water change and stop using those products. By the way, what is your water change regiment? Also, if you've ever used or use Seachem salt or any of their buffers there's a chance you could be getting false readings for your alkalinity due to the boron in a lot of their products.

3.) You say you have two maxijet 1200's with Hydors... I'm not sure what you mean, are you using Hydor Koralias as well or are you talking about some sort of mod for the 1200s. What's the ballpark for the total flow you have?

4.) How long have you had the polyps in question and how long did they look healthy before closing up? Where are the placed in relation to the light and were they acclimated slowly to your lights? That's quite a bit of light you have on that tank, and depending on where the ailing zoanthids are in relation to the light source it's certainly enough to stress out certain zoanthids. A lot of times a simple relocation to an area with different flow and light can make all the difference with a colony.

1. no problem with algea at all, just get a bit of brown on the glass if i dont wipe it down every 3-4 days.

2. i usually do a 30-50% water change every 4-6 weeks using IO salt buffered with 2 part stuff to the same specs as the tank.

3. hydros are the things youput on the end of the poiwer heads that spin to deflect the current(cuts the flow down to about 70% but puts it in more places)

I have those two which are about 200gph of moving flow.
The return is on the seaswirl which is about 700 gph

and the maxi mod is about 1600ish gph which is also on the sea swirl and on a timer(15min on 15 min off)

4. I have had them about 3 weeks now, they started closing a bit less then a week ago now. they were on the bottom of my tank shaded a bit by a monti cap. In low flow. But the tank they came out of they were about 12" under the water under a 250w halide, so lighting was about the same. Cant say for sure on the flow though.

I now have them up a bit higher in more current, If I dont see any change in a day or two ill try low light high current spots.

Im mostly confused as to why they would be open for so long and then close up.

[EnderG60]

oh and as far as the plus/trace/iodide go. Ive been doing it for 6 years now with no issues and when I stop I see less polyp extention and odd things happen with the colors.

i do only use 1/2 doses for the plus and trace though, and I spent 2 weeks testing iodide to get the right dosing amount so I know its spot on.

oh and as far as a clean up crew goes i have 6 turbo's and a cleaner shrimp and thats it(well all thats left anyway)

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13005880#post13005880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EnderG60
1. no problem with algea at all, just get a bit of brown on the glass if i dont wipe it down every 3-4 days.

2. i usually do a 30-50% water change every 4-6 weeks using IO salt buffered with 2 part stuff to the same specs as the tank.

3. hydros are the things youput on the end of the poiwer heads that spin to deflect the current(cuts the flow down to about 70% but puts it in more places)

I have those two which are about 200gph of moving flow.
The return is on the seaswirl which is about 700 gph

and the maxi mod is about 1600ish gph which is also on the sea swirl and on a timer(15min on 15 min off)

4. I have had them about 3 weeks now, they started closing a bit less then a week ago now. they were on the bottom of my tank shaded a bit by a monti cap. In low flow. But the tank they came out of they were about 12" under the water under a 250w halide, so lighting was about the same. Cant say for sure on the flow though.

I now have them up a bit higher in more current, If I dont see any change in a day or two ill try low light high current spots.

Im mostly confused as to why they would be open for so long and then close up.

Since you have been using those products for so long, it's not out of the realm of possibility that some trace elements have crept up to dangerous levels. Certain trace elements can be toxic in fairly small quantities. It could also be that the corals that have been present in the tank for some time have adapted to those levels while new additions have a higher likelyhood of getting stressed out. I really don't like the random additions of trace elements, aminos, vitamins etc. because there's just no way to monitor what it's doing to the tank. Also, testing for and trying to nmaintain levels of iodine could be a bit dangerous. Here are a couple blurbs from an excellent article by Randy...

"The Seachem iodine kit detects only iodide (I-) and molecular iodine (I2). It is unlikely that there will be much I2 in an aquarium as it quickly breaks down into other products59 [to be described in a later article that will include a discussion on using products that contain I2, such as Lugols solution]. A potential drawback to this kit is that it doesn’t detect iodate. So if your tank water matches normal seawater in quantity and speciation of iodine, then it will look artificially low (say, about 0.01 or 0.02 ppm). I would also not advise using this kit if you are adding an iodine supplement that contains considerable amounts of iodate, molecular iodine (that may break down into products that include iodate and iodide)59, or organic iodine forms. There is also the concern that supplemental iodide, and those forms of iodine coming in with marine foods, may end up partially as iodate. Consequently, this kit may substantially underestimate the total amount of iodine present. I fell into that trap years ago in dosing iodate to my tank, and a significant concentration built up before I specifically tested for it."

"I would strongly advise people to not try to maintain 0.06 ppm iodine using supplementation and a test kit.

Why you ask? Isn’t that what we do for most other chemicals of interest? Well, if we could easily and accurately determine the concentrations of the different forms of iodine in aquaria, then I would recommend doing just that. However, if you combine the complexities of having multiple iodine species present with the uncertainty of having hobbyists use very complex test kits that may readily yield incorrect or difficult to interpret results, the stage is set for people driving their total iodine to levels far from what they actually intended. I do not know what levels of iodide or iodate become apparently problematic to real aquaria, but the risk of overdosing in this fashion is not insignificant. Both of the ICP studies reported above found some tanks with substantially elevated total iodine levels. I have no way of knowing how those levels got there, but overdosing of a supplement is one likely way."

Here's a link to the first part of the series of articles. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm

Also, keep in mind that there is little to no evidence that iodine supplementation is beneficial in any way.

Your flow could be bumped up a nlittle bit, but I don't see it as a major issue, but perhaps consider getting anohter mod kit for one of your maxijets since it is a mixed reef with SPS.

The algae growing on the colony is the biggest issue in my eyes. You could put it in ideal conditions and it may not help because the algae is keeping it from opening. Personally, I like hermits in a reef tank, some do not. I've had the least problems with cortez red leg hermits as far as bothering other inhabitants, blue leg and scarlet are other choices but they seem slightly more likely to go after snails. Though since you just have turbograzers I doubt they'll tackle such a large snail. The great thing about hermits is they will clean up food, detritus, and algae that gets trapped in a colony. The same goes for mithrax crabs such as Emeralds. I'd pick up an emerald crab or 6 or so hermits and put them in isolation in your sump or the tank with the zoanthids and let them clean up the algae for a day or two. Then start the colony in question towards the bottom of the tank with a decent amount of flow and leave it there for some time and see how it reacts. If it opens and seems to be stretching for more light move it up after a week or two. In general, pink zoanthids seem to do just fine with high amounts of light, but since they have been closed up for a while, acclimating them to the light source again is a good idea.