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jlinzmaier
07/28/2008, 05:20 PM
Has Habib squared away the issues with the Salifert test kits reading inaccurately?? I would have posted on the Salifert forum but I see that's gone now. That's not a good sign I guess!!

Anyone have any info on the status of Salifert kits??

I keep hearing ELOS is the new Salifert, but I'm a bit dissatisfied with the poor precision of the tests. Increments of 20ppm of calcium????- not precise enough for me! The mg reads in increments of 100ppm. I guess I could live with that but until there's more precision I personally won't be turing into an ELOS advocate.

Jeremy

TheApprentice
07/28/2008, 05:25 PM
I have 3 salifert tests, ammonia, nitrate, and alk.

I like ammonia (but it always reads zero, so i don't know)

nitrate is good for low levels (below 10ppm) but not good for higher than that.

and alk is just fine!

I have heard elos is good, but im not sure yet.

jlinzmaier
07/28/2008, 05:37 PM
The major concern was that the ca and mg kits were reading high. I think becuase Habib didn't have answers to the problems and/or didn't correct the problems fast enough, there was major upset with the users of Salifert kits and many switched to the newest brand on the market - ELOS.

Anyone have updates on the status of the quality issues with Salifert ca and mg kits. I really like their precision, but if their not accurate then it's kind of pointless.

Regardless, I've ordered a new Salifert ca and mg kit. I have some control solutions that a chemist friend of mine made for me and I'll check them out for myself. Just wondering if anyone heard if Salifert has made any corrections to their kits to fix the widely known false high readings.

Jeremy

jansenwrasse
07/28/2008, 05:52 PM
Salifert test kits are good quality and as far as I can tell the test results are sufficiently accurate for reefkeeping. (for NO3, Ca, Alk, Mg)

jlinzmaier
07/28/2008, 05:57 PM
Glad to hear your confidence Jansenwrasse!! You can't deny that there was recently a significant quality issue though. Many people had kits that were reading falsly high. It was while Habib was ill and in the hospital and there was much frustration that he didn't respond to everyone's concern.

Not sure why the Salifert forum was removed from RC though.

Jeremy

ltelus
07/28/2008, 06:10 PM
I would like to know the answer to this question also.
Is habib still ill?
I am suprised there has been no announcement from anybody on the current status.
I would love to give salifert another chance but until i hear something concrete from either the horses mouth or someone with solid knowledge i will be buying another brand.

jansenwrasse
07/28/2008, 06:44 PM
As to Habib's health I do not know. But the only test kit I had any issue with was the KH/Alk test kit which is back and better than ever. It now comes with a calibration solution that you can titrate out to see if your kit is correct or any adjustments that are needed.

LOL what kind of solid concrete info are you looking for? Salifert makes a good test kit and I as well as thousands of reef keepers use them. You are free to use what ever test kit you would like though. :D

Hope this helps :D

Billybeau1
07/28/2008, 06:54 PM
I am not having any problems with my Salifert kits and still consider them the best of the hobby grade kits.

If you want my opinion, although it was nice to have a forum to ask questions about, no other major manufacturer of test kits had an open forum like Habib did. This was very taxing on him IMO and I'm glad he can focus his efforts on running the company (if he still is) instead of spending countless hours answering questions about his product.

I am personally glad the forum is gone. My Salifert kits still work great.

And I have a lot of test kits in my box. :D

I too hope he is OK and will continue to buy Salifert test kits until I see they are no longer accurate. :)

jlinzmaier
07/28/2008, 07:07 PM
I have an excellent idea!!!!! I need some help from the RC chemists though.

Wouldn't it be great to know if your test kit was truly accurate???? The only way to prove that, IMO, is to test a test kit against a known control solution. I do this myself since I have a friend who is a chemist and he makes me control solutions.

The salt mix comparison thread by billybeau is awesome and very helpful. The light performance review and comparison work done by Sanjay is awesome. Now we need a test kit comparison thread!!!!!!! Let's run an array of known test kits against known control solutions and see how they fair.

All we need is for a well known RC chemist to make some NIST control solutions and test the common name brand kits and see how accurate they come out. That could be a thread of the month!!! That could be the thread of the year!!!! Then the truth would really come out about which kits are accurate and which kits aren't!!!!!!

Bertoni, Billybeau, Randy (I know your on vacation but I must include you), Boomer, etc. Are any of you guys up for it??????

Just think how popular of a thread that would be. I once bought every alk test kit that fosters and smith sold in an attempt to find an accurate kit. I got results ranging from abnormally low to abnormally high all with the same test solution. It disgusted me.

Maybe a thread posting the accuracy of a test kit would get these manufacturers to do some quality controls and put out some real quality products. This could be huge!! A test kit revolution!! Just need a notable chemist to do the testing. I'd do it myself but nobody would belive me. Get Randy or Bertoni to compare some test kits against known control solutions then you'd get some heads to turn!!!!!

How about it guys????? Hell, I'd even buy some test kits and donate them to the cause and I'm sure many others would also. All I want is the truth. Which kit is giving me accurate readings?? This projoct could give everyone those answers!!!!!

Jeremy

jlinzmaier
07/28/2008, 07:19 PM
Just imagine how great this could be!!! Look at a chart of calcium tests that shows the name of the test kit and what reading it gave against a control solution of 400. There are many details to work out but at the very least it would embarass the companys whose test kits give rediculously inaccurate results and put some backing behind the kits that give accurate results.

Please someone take this on!!! This is exactly what this hobby needs. Some hard core truth to water chemistry testing.

Jeremy

jansenwrasse
07/28/2008, 07:27 PM
148 mg of CaCl2•2H2O in 107.21 gm of H2O = 372 ppm Ca2+.

149 mg of MgSO4 in 23.13 gm of Solution 1 = 370 ppm Ca2+, 1292 ppm Mg2

test kits can get expensive quick, as can reagent grade chemicals.

jlinzmaier
07/28/2008, 07:39 PM
Take calcium kits for example. You wouldn't need any more than 500 ml of control solution to start with. What are there maybe at the very most 25 calcium test kits on the market?? Each using no more than 5ml test water. That a max of 125ml control solution to cover all the ca tests (once over anyway).

Just think of all the money spent on inaccurate tests and the time we spend wondering/worrying if our kits are accurate. Think of the countless arguments that are brought up every day about one kit giving this result and another kit giving a different result on the same test solution. It frustrates us all. I'm not saying this would be an easy or cheap project, but it would be worthwhile!!

I'm sure there are thousands just like me that are disgusted with the varying results we get from one kit to another. I have no doubt that we could get a flood of people willing to donate test kits or NIST control solutions for this project. Hey, even better. top quality companies would want to stand behind their product. If they have faith in their product they'll donate kits. It's free marketing for the companies that truly believe in the accuracy of their test kits (that is if their kits stand up to the test!). For those that don't want to put their test kits to the test, well, that says a lot in itsself.

Please my RC chemists!!!!! Consider the idea. It could be huge!!!

Jeremy

Billybeau1
07/28/2008, 07:48 PM
Jeremy, the hard core truth is that hobby grade kits are just that. Hobby grade kits.

Many things affect the accuracy of these kits. Age, contamination, user error.......... it happens, believe me.

Every test kit company that I know of has let out a bad batch of kits now and then. It happens.

Many of our parameters do not have to be exact in the first place to run a successful reef tank. Some reefers have it in their head that they want to know the exact amount of calcium in their water. Not within 20 ppm or so. Some reefers are comfortable knowing their calcium level is between 380 and 450 ppm.

Other than the occasional thread we get from time to time about a test kit killing someones tank, I think, for the most part, most reefers are satisfied with their testing procedures. And I even question some of those threads.

Heck, Randy does not test his water at all. Never. He lets his eyes tell him how his tank is doing.

I have probably 6 or 7 brands of test kits in my box and have tested all of them. Some good, some not so good. Some give finer results, some give general results.

A group in another forum recently did a test of major brand test kits. Their results were all across the board.

You can make a calcium standard, and have 5 different people test that standard with the same kit and get different results.

These are simply.......... hobby grade kits. That's all.

jlinzmaier
07/28/2008, 08:08 PM
Those are some really good points Billy. Wouldn't it just be nice to know that you've got an accurate kit though??

I myself am a true Salifert fan. I hear many people bashing Salifert and bragging about ELOS becuase of the recent bad kits that came out from Salifert. I test my Salifert ca kit against the controls that my friend makes and it checks out. Usually after a few months it loses accuracy and I'm sure that's simply due to exposure or contamination of some kind.

I'm just frustrated that there are so many inaccurate kits on the market and these companies continue to make money off these crappy test kits. IMO, a test kit comparison by a knowlegeable and well known chemist would put some pressure on companies to produce real "quality" test kits. We shouldn't settle for the fact that their just "Hobby" test kits. By asking for higher quality would most likely raise the price, but I'd be glad to pay a bit more for a kit that I know will give me accurate results. Our multi-thousand dollar fish tanks shouldn't be compromised (even the least little bit) because we allow companies to put out poor quality kits. Accuracy of kits should be published, advertised, and available for all to see.

Jeremy

palawan
07/29/2008, 02:44 PM
I would not use the Salifert kits, after the last round of bad test kits with Mg and KH I would not chance my sps collection in any way. I use Elos and Lamotte, I trust these brands. Salifert was king but not anymore. It doesn't take but bad customer service and product to bring a company down.

jlinzmaier
07/29/2008, 04:48 PM
ELOSUSA

Glad to hear you've added a bit more precision to you ca and mag test kits. All I see sold is the old kits (unless the retailers I buy from haven't updated their product info). Where can I get these new kits?

Jeremy

elosusa
07/29/2008, 04:54 PM
all should have it, they probably have not updated their information.

ltelus
07/29/2008, 05:30 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13047182#post13047182 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elosusa
I know this will come across as self serving but we are using NIST validated reagents and we validate our kits with an independent sea water lab once the kits come to the US to insure we are selling a consistent and accurate product (I am not aware of another company that does this). Beyond that we store our kits in a separate, climate controlled area of our warehouse and we ask that our distributors do the same. We have also made every effort to satisfy customers who requested higher resolution so our new Mg kit has 50ppm resolution and the new Ca has 10ppm resolution. Again I am not trying to turn this into a commercial I just wanted to point this out as I see this being mentioned on occasion.

sounds great,do the lids fit the vials yet?

elosusa
07/29/2008, 05:37 PM
Yes, was your lid too loose? In most cases the vial cap is not needed and you will also notice that the PO4 kit will cause a reaction that will actually cause the cap to push out, which is normal.

ltelus
07/29/2008, 06:23 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13048436#post13048436 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elosusa
Yes, was your lid too loose? In most cases the vial cap is not needed and you will also notice that the PO4 kit will cause a reaction that will actually cause the cap to push out, which is normal.

No, i bought a calcium test,the lid was too small.I never used the kit and sold it on.
I have your alk test and have been very happy with it so far

Billybeau1
07/29/2008, 06:27 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13047182#post13047182 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elosusa
I know this will come across as self serving but we are using NIST validated reagents and we validate our kits with an independent sea water lab once the kits come to the US to insure we are selling a consistent and accurate product (I am not aware of another company that does this). Beyond that we store our kits in a separate, climate controlled area of our warehouse and we ask that our distributors do the same. We have also made every effort to satisfy customers who requested higher resolution so our new Mg kit has 50ppm resolution and the new Ca has 10ppm resolution. Again I am not trying to turn this into a commercial I just wanted to point this out as I see this being mentioned on occasion.

Hi Jesse. Yes I tested your kits and found them quite accurate. If you'll remember the only thing I said separated you from Salifert was your general test numbers. If you have improved those, I'll pick some up and test again.

As you know some reefers are ok with general numbers but some like more precision. But most want just accuracy.

From my testing, your kits are just as accurate as the top shelf hobby kits and if you have given the reefer a finer number, that is even better.

There are only a few hobby grade kits I recommend and yours is one of them. Keep up the good work. I will pick up some of your new kits and give them a whirl.

I'm a testing fool. :jester: :jester:

ed4
08/24/2008, 12:57 PM
Reposted from a similar thread but...

I have a nice collection of a mixed set of Elos and Salifert.

I really HATE the way Salifert's dropper bottles drip solution. More times then not, the sizes of the drops are noticeable different and the stiff bottle sidewalls make things harder.

Elos test kits are noticeably nicer. The box (which most people won't care for), instructions, vials, the bottle nozzles, syringe, etc. I'd pay the extra money for Elos if I run out of test solution.

Dumping messed up test solutions and redoing tests is enough of an aggravation to not buy Salifert again.

J A Stevens
01/25/2015, 09:06 PM
I echo the in-accuracy of the drops. The Ca-2 bottle seems to stiff. Find it hard to get consistent sized drops from the Ca-2 bottle. The slightest shake and a drop splits in half, a momentary relaxing of the pressure admits air into the bottle and the next drop is huge. And never exactly sure what came out when first tipping the bottle upside down over the test glass.
I really do like the simplicity of the salifert kits and would still generally recommend them.

Cysco
01/26/2015, 07:39 AM
I realize this thread is about 7 years old but to give you tip on CA2. I always turn the bottle upside down over the sink first to let those first little drops out. Then squeeze the bottle once and stop (still over the sink) and make sure nothing will come out. Then move your test vial under the CA2 and begin your drop count. This will make testing for you so much easier with respect to accuracy and knowing you got 8 drops in ( or 4 if you do the half method).

disc1
01/26/2015, 08:07 AM
The exact measurement of that reagent isn't super critical. It is the titrant from the syringe where you need really exact measurement. If you're off by half a drop here or there on CA2 then you should still get a good test.