Genicanthus males - your experiences? [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

SDguy

07/28/2008, 09:44 PM

I thought I would start a thread where people could share their experiences with keeping, specifically, male genicanthus species angelfish. Mine is turning female, and I'd just like to know who has experience with this, and who has not had it happen. Maybe a trend in husbandry will emerge. I'll start:

I have a large 6+" male Genicanthus melanospilos and a smaller (4") female. They are in a 115g tall tank (48" x 18" x 31"). They were added at the same time, but were purchased separately. They have been in the tank about a year and a half. Early on, I did see the male court the female a couple times. The male rarely chases the female for a couple seconds, but otherwise zero aggression. Both are in perfect health, and eat anything.

I was hoping that in the smaller tank, where they would be in constant visual contact, this would not happen. Clearly I was wrong. As I wait to soon own the biggest female G. melanospilos I have ever seen :rolleyes: I look forward to reading your replies :D

Gwynhidwy

07/29/2008, 04:06 AM

I had, just sold in fact, a harem of three Genicanthus watanabeis. I owned them for about a year and a half and the person that I bought them from had them for more than a year before that. The male displayed male coloration for the entire time. They exhibited regular spawning behavior in my tank. I kept them in a 155G with fairly open aquascaping.

I have pondered the idea that the loss of male coloration (I don't know if they actually revert to female, I was told it was only the coloration that changed) is due to only having one female. That perhaps with a harem of multiple females this change would not occur. I don't know if that is the case, but is an idea and the only standout difference that I have come up with after talking with several people who have had their males change, while mine did not.

snorvich

07/29/2008, 06:22 AM

I have had two different species of genicanthus. My bellus pair stayed where they were in terms of sexual differentiation. My Watanabei went from female to male and back to female. Very strange but not unexpected.

SDguy

07/29/2008, 07:18 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13043880#post13043880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
I have had two different species of genicanthus. My bellus pair stayed where they were in terms of sexual differentiation. My Watanabei went from female to male and back to female. Very strange but not unexpected.

Would you mind elaborating...length of time, size tank, etc. Thanks :)

BangkokMatt

07/29/2008, 07:18 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13043880#post13043880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
I have had two different species of genicanthus. My bellus pair stayed where they were in terms of sexual differentiation. My Watanabei went from female to male and back to female. Very strange but not unexpected.
You rarely hear of females turning male. It pretty much eliminates the 'harem' idea of maintaing a male as a male.
Steve - Was the watanabe in a pair or a single specimen? Were there any other Genicanthus being kept in the tank?

BangkokMatt

07/29/2008, 07:24 AM

There is a 6 month gap between these 2 photographs. I'm not going to even try to assume why the change occurs. The more research I do the more random it appears.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/114759IMG_2303.jpg

http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm357/Bangkokmatt/MaleGenicanthus.jpg

He is in a pair and is also kept with a larger Goldflake (just for the record)

ReeferAl

07/29/2008, 09:12 AM

I bought a pair of melanospilos angels. While in the QT the male reverted to female, even in the presence of another female.
I subsequently added a third female to the mix. All stayed female, even the largest, previous male.
I bought a 4th, male. I put pictures of females on the glass all around the QT. He stayed male throughout the QT process- 6 weeks. He was a bit smaller than the largest female in the DT. When I put him into the DT the largest, dominant female (previous male) attacked him mercilessly. I inserted a barrier into the tank to separate them, but by the time I had done so the male was injured and a few days later he died. So I still have only 3 females.

SDguy

07/29/2008, 08:42 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13044730#post13044730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
I put pictures of females on the glass all around the QT.

:lol: Wow, and I thought I tried hard....

OK, so scratch "having multiple females helps" off the list... :(

jda

07/30/2008, 11:49 AM

One of the locals had a male watanabei start to turn female after the his mate jumped. He put a bellus (or melano, I forget) in the tank and the watanabei immediately went back to strong male coloring. Another local had a female watanabei turn to male after he put a female bellus in the tank.

My watanabei pair stayed put the whole time that I had them.

The mature males get a differnet body shape from the females with a wider, more elongated throat as well as a longer body. I wonder if a mature male would every change back to a female? From my experience, SDguy's male is a young male with just a color change, not a body change.

SDguy

07/30/2008, 05:44 PM

I agree...I've seen pics of really BIG Genicanthus males that are "different" in shape from females, just never with a melanospilos. So what do you think of my male, not sexually a male, so it could revert back? Interesting theory.... But my male was fine for a year, and even courted the female...maybe still not enough? And he's big
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Maleswallowtailangel1-27-07withflas.jpg

Compared to the female:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Femaleswallowtailangel1-27-07.jpg

jda

07/30/2008, 06:12 PM

Yeah - it is just a theory. :) Perhaps size is not the issue, rather time for the male sex organs to develop? It makes sense that a large female could turn into a large male, but still need a good amount of time to develop the organs. ...whereas a female half of the size could go male at a young age and be a fully developed male at a smaller size.

Your male does look like he is developing the longer body, but the throat is not as pronounced as some that I have seen. Perhaps he is an older fish, but still a younger male?

My Watanabei pair had different body shapes almost as pronounced as the Semicinctus pictures in this (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/hcs3/index.php) article near the bottom.

Did you ever see the pair try to spawn? Mine would attempt to spawn by chasing in circles as they ascended indicating that they could be sexually mature. Like Schultz III states in his article, we would need to see the release of sperm before truly stating that a male has changed back into a female - and then see eggs.

SDguy

07/30/2008, 06:35 PM

I was thinking of that article as I read your post :)

No, I never saw mine spawn, just court. Perhaps the smaller tank approach backfired - instead of keeping them as is, through constant visual contact, it prevented them from fully courting and spawning, keeping the male, male. Hmmmm.....

SDguy

07/31/2008, 11:10 PM

Really, no more long term male genicanthus angel keepers?

bradleyj

07/31/2008, 11:24 PM

I added a nice male watanabie to my 225g tank over a year ago to see if it would hook up with my female. Well, my hippo tang decided she did not want 2 watanabies in her tank and killed the female. A couple of months ago my male started turning female and is almost completely changed over.
Here is a pic of her now, you can still see what used to be his stripes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/tileman/Canon%20XSL/100mm%20macro/IMG_1480.jpg

bradleyj

07/31/2008, 11:28 PM

I also have a male swallowtail that has changed also.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/tileman/Canon%20XSL/IMG_1162.jpg

EnderG60

08/01/2008, 06:23 AM

I had a male watanabie for almost a year by himself and he never changed colors. I think that he may have been a super male though, he had super bright colors and was about 6" long.

he eventually dies from a swim blatter infection, which totally caught be off gaurd since he had been fine for almost a year.

SDguy

08/01/2008, 08:15 AM

Well, crappy track record so far for melanospilos :(

SDguy

08/02/2008, 11:29 PM

Interesting update today. The "male" chased the female more than ever today.....she then stopped, and "fluttered" in front of him, stopping all aggression.....so what does that mean?

MyReefCreations

08/03/2008, 07:29 AM

My watanabeis pair is more "pair"er than ever. The males seems to ahve become more male over time. The females chronioc pesters him for spawning, and then he gets mad and chases her around. Real white,... well I guess blue trash.

Bear in mind this- flashy males are at a very distinct disadvantage, in a functional ecological sense. Brighter, fdlashier fish are more obvious to predatiors. The main benefit to this is sexual selection from mates. MAny species will adjust their appearance to help counteract this. For example, a huge number of birds will have breeding plumage, and non-breeding, or eclipse, plumage. Is it possible these males are really NOT reverting to females, but just dulling down the colors, as breeding isnt prevalent, and they see no reason to draw attention to themselves (not willful decisions, obviously). In my scenario, there are certain cues which would cause the reversal back to male. Prehaps a "better" chance of breeding (more females, more room, certain foods, who knows???), or more sexual competiton (another male). Just spitballing.

racingrich

08/03/2008, 07:34 AM

Have any of you fed caulerpa to the swallowtail's and if so how did they like it. I have read that they should eat some feather caulerpa and I have a small amount in my tank that I would like to control.
thanks Rich

racingrich

08/03/2008, 05:56 PM

Anyone with these fish have and ideas abut them eating caulerpa

jda

08/03/2008, 06:11 PM

They are planktivores for the most part. I don't see mine picking at the rocks much. Where did you read that they should eat feather caulerpa?

SDguy

08/17/2008, 05:25 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13078815#post13078815 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MyReefCreations
Bear in mind this- flashy males are at a very distinct disadvantage, in a functional ecological sense. Brighter, fdlashier fish are more obvious to predatiors. The main benefit to this is sexual selection from mates. MAny species will adjust their appearance to help counteract this. For example, a huge number of birds will have breeding plumage, and non-breeding, or eclipse, plumage. Is it possible these males are really NOT reverting to females, but just dulling down the colors, as breeding isnt prevalent, and they see no reason to draw attention to themselves (not willful decisions, obviously). In my scenario, there are certain cues which would cause the reversal back to male. Prehaps a "better" chance of breeding (more females, more room, certain foods, who knows???), or more sexual competiton (another male). Just spitballing.

Good theory. I guess it will be very interesting to see if my angel's behavior changes or not, as his color does....

gasman059

08/17/2008, 05:54 PM

Peter I've seen it both ways-with wantanabe and shallow tail.

IME is new species and stress added to the environment causes them to change(no expert here).

SDguy

08/17/2008, 07:04 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13173916#post13173916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gasman059
IME is new species and stress added to the environment causes them to change(no expert here).

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean the addition of new fish to the system? What experiences make you think this?

gasman059

08/17/2008, 07:50 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13174259#post13174259 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean the addition of new fish to the system? What experiences make you think this?
here's the scenario I saw with both my pairs.
established pair of wt w/o issues-introduced a pair of japs and the dominant male in my case the wt remained(male) then the japanese male changed to female, after both of the shallow tails where removed from the tank the wt became a female or IMO a subdominant male and when the female wt was removed stayed female.

Currently I don't own any but love genichantus.

SDguy

08/17/2008, 07:58 PM

LOL, I think I need a flowchart to follow that :D

Chibils

08/18/2008, 07:42 PM

Female melanospilos for three months. Still female. :p

SDguy

08/18/2008, 07:50 PM

:lol:

SDguy

11/06/2008, 10:09 PM

Well, thought I'd update. While my male continues to SLOWY lose stripes and turn dark, he acts the same. And that elongated "male" shape is there, along with the ridiculously long tail streamers. No aggression. And I caught him courting the female tonight!!

Perhaps there is something to MRC's theory!

wayne in norway

11/07/2008, 02:58 AM

My experience with my male melanospilos that I was given was that it was very stressed in a tank nearly 5 foot by 3 foot in base area. Big fish, too small tank. I can't believe now people recommend them for 4 footers.

SDguy

11/07/2008, 07:49 AM

Thanks for the opinion :) . Are you suggesting the color change is due to stress? Or the courting behavior indicates stress?

SDguy

01/08/2009, 07:29 PM

An updated pic from tonight. More stripes lost. But still all over very blue. I tried to take a pic that showed the true colors best, so no flash (sorry about the quality). And still no more hint of increasing black edges to the tail, which seems to happen quite quickly in this species. So I have no idea what it's doing :-/
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/IMG_3778_1.jpg

flameangel88

01/08/2009, 09:12 PM

I was over at the lfs last week and saw 4 Melanospilos--2 males and 2 females so I pick the male that wasn't having swimming problem and a female to keep him from changing back but I think it may be too late.

Good looking side
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Genicanthus%20melanospilos/IMG_5863.jpg

the other side that appears to be changing
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Genicanthus%20melanospilos/IMG_5864.jpg

The female was weak and got suck on by the powerhead and I'd to remove and it's doing well in a smaller and slower flow tank. It's eating well but I wanted to give another week to recover before putting it back in with the male.

What do you think--male changing to female?

tanglovers

01/08/2009, 09:30 PM

I have a bellus angel pair, bought as a pair from an LFS about a year ago, possibly a little longer. Was added with a single female into the display tank. Single female did not make it, disappeared after a day or so (unknown reason - went through a full QT). The pair though has done great, tons of courting and I have witnessed spawning on 2 occasions. My lights don't go off until like 2:30 am so I am not up and by the tank most nights.

They are in a 220, with lots of other tangs and angels, fed 3-4 times daily a variety of foods.

SDguy

01/08/2009, 10:19 PM

Not sure. What's interesting is the differences from the "fade" mine is doing. Mine lost the black breast spot first, then the forehead stripes. Yours has a clear spot, and dark forehead stripes, but fading body stripes. :confused: Yours also has more dark edging to the tail than mine.... Not even sure if any of that means anything :o

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14112051#post14112051 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flameangel88
I was over at the lfs last week and saw 4 Melanospilos--2 males and 2 females so I pick the male that wasn't having swimming problem and a female to keep him from changing back but I think it may be too late.

Good looking side
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Genicanthus%20melanospilos/IMG_5863.jpg

the other side that appears to be changing
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/reeftankpix/Genicanthus%20melanospilos/IMG_5864.jpg

The female was weak and got suck on by the powerhead and I'd to remove and it's doing well in a smaller and slower flow tank. It's eating well but I wanted to give another week to recover before putting it back in with the male.

What do you think--male changing to female?

flameangel88

01/08/2009, 10:55 PM

Either way I'm glad I got this one as the other male died after I took this one home. I just don't understand why the collection and shipping is so poor on males. The lfs is still has another female which I may consider getting to give this guy two gals to keep him from changing. :)

SDguy

01/08/2009, 10:56 PM

Well the article linked earlier in the thread showed a trio, and the male still changed....

flameangel88

01/08/2009, 11:10 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14112953#post14112953 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Well the article linked earlier in the thread showed a trio, and the male still changed....

I still have to do all I can for him and the rest is upto him.

snorvich

01/09/2009, 06:36 AM

Ok, this is going to seem weird. I had a male Watanabei and it changed from Male to female. So, put a male in, it went nuts! Killed the male, then changed back to male. Then reversed course and is female.

I also (different tank) purchased a pair of G. Bellus. No changes.

SDguy

01/09/2009, 07:11 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14114219#post14114219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Ok, this is going to seem weird. I had a male Watanabei and it changed from Male to female. So, put a male in, it went nuts! Killed the male, then changed back to male. Then reversed course and is female.

That sounds like it would fit very well with the theory mentioned earlier in this thread. In such constant close proximity to a female (ie captivity), the male doesn't have to expend the biological energy of keeping its male colors. But it is still a male. So it attacks the new male, and obviously needs the male colors to keep other males out of its territory, so it develops the male colors again. Hey, perhaps the whole male coloration has just as much to do with notifying other males from afar?

flameangel88

01/09/2009, 08:38 AM

snorvich

01/09/2009, 02:42 PM

You are probably right. But at that time I did not know the process worked that way and I wanted a pair. Once I found out that things worked that way, I only purchased pairs.

alprazo

01/09/2009, 05:54 PM

I had two female bellus and one male. THe females never got along. The male died two weeks ago and one of the females has already transformed to male. So far, they still do not get along. The transformation was quick - I would say it took 15 days until I saw no remnants of the female coloring. In the two weeks the fish has grown significantly in length and has already developed small streamers on the tail.

My previous male came from someones tank - 1.5 yrs I was told and without females. Never reverted back.

AquaKnight

01/09/2009, 06:50 PM

Since we have all the Genio heads in one place...

What does everyone think of mixing species? A male melanospilos, with a female Bellus, for instance?

snorvich

01/09/2009, 08:42 PM

I have considered it but have never tried it. But I would never think of doing so in a 125 gallon tank.

flameangel88

01/09/2009, 08:54 PM

I've 2 female Watanabes and 2 female Bellus with 1of the 2 Watababe changing to male and it doesn't look like he cares for the female Bellus.

My question is would males of different species tolerate each other?

ReeferAl

01/10/2009, 11:23 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14114219#post14114219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Ok, this is going to seem weird. I had a male Watanabei and it changed from Male to female. So, put a male in, it went nuts! Killed the male, then changed back to male. Then reversed course and is female.

I had a similar thing happen with a milanospilos. The "former" male with female colors immediately attacked and killed the newly introduced male. I suspect the theory is correct that the male does not truly revert to a female when its color changes to female in an aquarium.

I wonder what would have happened if the new, smaller male had been separated by a barrier from the larger "female" when introduced? If it had reverted to female coloration would it also have truly reverted to female as the smaller of the 2 "males"? Might the larger have gotten its male color back? Of course, there's no real answers to these questions- yet.

Allen

snorvich

01/10/2009, 12:39 PM

It is an interesting point. With fairy wrasses, I introduce all via a isolation chamber floating in the tank or attached to the front. But in this case (Genicanthus), it never occurred to me to do so. If the area is large enough, you may be right.

SDguy

01/10/2009, 01:01 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14123271#post14123271 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl

I wonder what would have happened if the new, smaller male had been separated by a barrier from the larger "female" when introduced? If it had reverted to female coloration would it also have truly reverted to female as the smaller of the 2 "males"? Might the larger have gotten its male color back? Of course, there's no real answers to these questions- yet.

Allen

That would be a great experiment. I would suspect that the larger one would probably get its colors back, if the theory holds true.

SDguy

01/19/2009, 04:15 PM

Thought I would update with some current pics.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Underwater%2001-09-09/1_1-1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Underwater%2001-09-09/2_1-1.jpg

NanoCube-boy

01/19/2009, 04:45 PM

Wow it changes because of sex. interesting.

SDguy

01/19/2009, 05:52 PM

Here's a shot to give you an idea of the true color, with no camera flash:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Underwater%2001-09-09/6_1-1.jpg

NanoCube-boy

01/19/2009, 05:54 PM

Nice...

ReeferAl

02/01/2009, 03:26 PM

Recently my "previous" male that had turned to female colors a couple of years age began changing colors again. Initially I wasn't sure but now the change is clear so I took a photo show the transition.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/7469changing_angel.JPG
He appears to be in the process of reverting to male coloration. The yellow is fading and stripes are becoming clearly visible.
The other 2 females are still leading their normal lives. I'll update if the change becomes more complete.

Allen

SDguy

02/01/2009, 03:32 PM

Did anything change in the tank, Allen, to which you could attribute the change back?

ReeferAl

02/01/2009, 06:41 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14294843#post14294843 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Did anything change in the tank, Allen, to which you could attribute the change back?

Nothing that would seem likely. A rabbit fish I had for 5 years died, but it never bothered the angel or vice versa. I recently changed some of the light bulbs. Water conditions have been stable and there are no new fish in over a year.

The angel that is changing back has slowly gotten bigger over the past few years since I got him. He's now almost 6". Maybe size has something to do with it.

Allen

snorvich

02/01/2009, 07:26 PM

Alan, I had a similar thing happen and I could not pinpoint any factor which caused the change. I have had a similar thing happen with fairy wrasses.

InsaneClownFish

10/11/2009, 10:56 PM

I just stumbled across this and it's a great read- albeit a bit confusing. :)

SDguy, any updates on your loopy male?

SDguy

10/12/2009, 09:45 AM

My male has seemed to "stabilize" with his current colors. Definitely not female, but certainly not what he originally looked like. I still think he's really cool looking, though :)

With cameral flash:
http://www.sdreefs.com/forums/imagehosting/5974a917c826ca09.jpg

No camera flash (he looks REALLY blue in person):
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Underwater%2009-19-09/Fish4_1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Underwater%2009-19-09/Fish5_1.jpg

SDguy

10/12/2009, 09:47 AM

For comparison, the female...

With camera flash:
http://www.sdreefs.com/forums/imagehosting/5974a917c82a3a30.jpg

Without camera flash:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Underwater%2009-19-09/Fish2_1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Underwater%2009-19-09/Fish1_1.jpg

kudora

10/12/2009, 10:27 AM

i eventually wanted to pick up a male for my female melanospilos but after reading this thread i will prob reconsider it. thanks for the info guys

SDguy

10/13/2009, 08:04 AM

i eventually wanted to pick up a male for my female melanospilos but after reading this thread i will prob reconsider it. thanks for the info guys

Not only the color issue, but adding a male to an established female may not go so well, either.

gasman059

10/13/2009, 03:51 PM

Peter thx for the follow up.

SDguy

12/31/2009, 08:36 AM

Update: Since moving to a 150g tank, the male has increased the amount of stripes on his body. Still nothing on the forehead though. I'll try to get some pics...

SDguy

01/20/2010, 09:34 PM

Updated pics: As I mentioned, he GAINED stripes after the move to a 150g, but not to the original pattern....

Sorry for the picture quality...I'm working with a new camera. I also managed to snap a pic of him displaying to the female!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/DSC00323_1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/DSC00326_1.jpg

goby1

09/26/2010, 11:32 PM

Bought a male and female Watanabei together from LFS. Tank is 4 x 2.5 x 2.5' and the other inhabitants were a small ocelaris clown and a chevron tang. The male chased the female like crazy at first, but this tapered off. After 2 or 3 years (can't remember), they would chase once a month or so, when I happened to be looking of course, and then the male suddenly was gone. Looked for jumped carcass, but there was none. He must have suddenly died somehow. In any case, the cleaner shrimp would have chowed him before I saw anything.

I guess my point is that they can stay male for several years in a 150. He was healthy looking. However, I have way fewer fish than most people have in a 150. I still have the female and the other fish. That was two years ago or so.

G1

SDguy

09/27/2010, 08:19 AM

Did your male watanabei show any change in color/pattern in the time that you had him?

goby1

09/27/2010, 05:35 PM

No, not at all. Stayed 'vibrantly' male the whole time. Oh an I should mention that they would spawn a lot. A white 'cloud' would bring my attention to the tank, and the two fish would be sort of fluttering near each other. Pretty cool. I remember when I saw it the first time - immediately looked up online to see if I might be making baby watanabeis - learned I wouldn't be of course!

SDguy

11/20/2010, 03:23 PM

Finally, some updates. Note the increase instripes since here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15843643&postcount=60

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20Pics%202010/IMG_8112-1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20Pics%202010/IMG_8085-1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20Pics%202010/IMG_8098-1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20Pics%202010/IMG_8121-1.jpg

SDguy

11/20/2010, 10:06 PM

I hope the forehead pattern stays as it is... he's my poor man's takeuchii :D

http://glassbox-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/genicanthus-takeuchii.jpg

suta4242

11/21/2010, 05:29 PM

IMO, that fish is absolutely stunning.:dance:

SDguy

11/21/2010, 07:13 PM

IMO, that fish is absolutely stunning.:dance:

Thank you!

SDguy

02/05/2011, 09:32 PM

At the cleaning station tonight:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20pics%202011/IMG_9077-1.jpg

The streamers are just ridiculous lately... how they don't get sucked into the vortechs is beyond me.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20pics%202011/IMG_9080-1.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20pics%202011/IMG_9075-1.jpg

And a nice shot of that neat forehead pattern:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20pics%202011/IMG_9079-1.jpg

And of course, let's show some love for his girl :D
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20pics%202011/IMG_9094-1.jpg

aquaph8

02/05/2011, 09:58 PM

Peter, never let this thread die. Lovin the genicanthus

SDguy

02/06/2011, 10:18 AM

I hope to have this thread go for as long as I have these fish....many, many years! :)

Jacob D

02/11/2011, 10:50 AM

I've had mixed experience, mostly with watanabes. In my previous tank I kept a pair for about 3~4 years. They both always stayed the same sex. That was a 75g mixed reef, lightly stocked. In my current tank I have a single male who has almost fully reverted back to female coloration. This is in a 360g moderately stocked mixed reef. I have to check my records but I might have had the fish 4-5 months and that is how long it has taken to revert. I have photos, but they're on my other computer so I can't post them at the moment.

I'm hoping to find and add a couple of females soon, maybe he'll get excited and color up again.

BTW Peter, your male melanospilos has got some great color, one of the best I have ever seen.

acronautical

02/27/2011, 11:21 PM

Peter, "Big Blue" is the studliest Genicanthus of ALL TIME!

SDguy

02/27/2011, 11:27 PM

Thanks guys!

THEDLO

03/09/2011, 11:43 PM

Excellent read. after absorbing all this info what seem most likely is like mentioned earlier, they turn pseudo-female when there is not "competition" e.g. no need to show there "lions mane" im tempted to try and get a male bellus or watanabe and keeping it in a clear container to "provoke" my male into showing its colors.....or i may try just a mirror and or pictures of other males....thanks for restoring my faith Peter lol. i may also add another female. not sure yet tho. ill keep u guys posted :D

P.S.
BTW that Male is a super male Peter!! very jealous!

TP123

03/10/2011, 11:30 AM

SDguy

03/10/2011, 11:35 AM

I was thinking essentially the same thing. It could just be a chromatic change and not really male/female transformation.

True, but I'm not sure if it's the same in all instances. I'd be curious to know if my male with a "faded" pattern is the same as a male completely reverting to female colors.

THEDLO

03/15/2011, 10:46 PM

heres a before and after.

before
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/gallery/files/7/5/9/9/fish_041.jpg

after
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/TH3DLO/stuff221.jpg

SDguy

10/20/2011, 06:53 AM

I am starting to get a bit nervous. My male geni stopped eating about a week ago. Not a mark on him, super fat, breathing normally. Spending the majority of his time in the back of the tank, but will come out and swim around normally once in a while. No one is bothering him in any way. I'm not sure what to do... since he's not eating, I ca't trap him to move him to a QT of any kind. Thoughts?

aquaph8

10/20/2011, 04:21 PM

I had a square Anthias that had been with me 3 years do this. She just stopped eating but died fat. When I removed her she almost looked bloated. I thought maybe some kind of kidney failure or blockage. I hope yours comes around for you, he's one of my favorites to see pics of. Good luck man.

SDguy

10/20/2011, 04:39 PM

You know, this happened after I broke out some rather old frozen cyclopeeze and ova. Could I have given the poor guy some sort of food poisoning? The other fish are fine though...

SDguy

10/20/2011, 05:10 PM

A couple major developments today:

Bad news: He's got some weird white "things" popping out along his lateral line on one side of his body. I have NEVER seen anything like it.

Good news: He actually swam out for food, and ate a couple PE mysis. I've been soaking the PE mysis with metro (for a dfferent reason - other tank), so double good news, he may be getting a bit of medication in his body too.

euod

10/20/2011, 05:17 PM

Good to hear. Time for blackworms, too.

snorvich

10/20/2011, 06:25 PM

Would you mind elaborating...length of time, size tank, etc. Thanks :)

Bellus pair is in a 240 (8 foot) gallon tank. Mating behavior is at least 3 times per week, always during "sunset". I have had them for about 5 years.

Watanabe experience was strange. Female introduced with a male who did not make it (I guess males don't do well in shipping?). Female stayed as is for about 8-10 months. I introduced another male, trying to replicate pairing as with the Bellus. The female turned male (about 2 weeks), killed the new male, then transitioned back to being female (about a month). This was in a 350 gallon tank. I cannot say I understand why but this is the story for me.

SDguy

10/20/2011, 06:32 PM

Bellus pair is in a 240 (8 foot) gallon tank. Mating behavior is at least 3 times per week, always during "sunset". I have had them for about 5 years.

You can understand my concern and sadness at the possible outcomes... I watched that behavior, mostly from the male, at least that often, for the past few years, catching them once even spawning. I've had them 4.5 years.

snorvich

10/20/2011, 07:02 PM

You can understand my concern and sadness at the possible outcomes... I watched that behavior, mostly from the male, at least that often, for the past few years, catching them once even spawning. I've had them 4.5 years.

Absolutely. I too get attached, and the fish even recognize me. We can only do the best we can for them.

acronautical

10/21/2011, 08:42 PM

SDguy

10/22/2011, 06:42 AM

Thanks buddy... I know you'd be just as crushed if something happened to him as I would!

prop-frags

10/22/2011, 08:10 AM

We have had our male and female Bellus angels for 15 months.

Here are a couple of pics of the male:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/6160580911/" title="nt 1624 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6195/6160580911_f14302778f_z.jpg" width="640" height="425" alt="nt 1624"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5796301650/" title="nt 1110 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3337/5796301650_78bb803e85_z.jpg" width="640" height="425" alt="nt 1110"></a>
He is by far the largest angel in the tank and lives to chase the female Bellus and our timid Regal angel.

And here's our plump little female:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/terryl93/5796301612/" title="nt 1108 by terryl93, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2366/5796301612_588bf5e45f_z.jpg" width="640" height="425" alt="nt 1108"></a>
The Bellus angels have been displaying courting behavior at dusk for several months now.

nonstopfishies

11/18/2011, 12:48 AM

Any update SD on how the male is doing?

SDguy

11/18/2011, 07:10 AM

As I posted in another thread, unfortunately he died several weeks after he stopped eating. :(

tcoral

11/18/2011, 08:14 AM

Since we have all the Genio heads in one place...

What does everyone think of mixing species? A male melanospilos, with a female Bellus, for instance?

I have a pair of melanospilos in my 180 for about a year, so far male is still a male with male coloring.

I added a Genicanthus semifasciatus female about a month or 2 back. The male didn't mind a bit, but my female melanospilos did! She chased the new female all over. The new female had the sense to hide in the rock work and finally it worked out with the new female being accepted, but it was hairy there for a bit with me thinking I was going to lose the semifaciatus. I'd worry about mixing species esp. if one has established themselves.

albano

11/18/2011, 09:15 AM

I'd worry about mixing species esp. if one has established themselves.
I've kept multiple species together, presently have 3 F swallowtails and 2 Bellus, also had those with a pair of Lamarcks...the problem seems to be, that the biggest/most dominate Male, will cause the other males to revert back to females...(that's why I now have 3 F swallowtails)

Here is a pic of my 'sex-changing' Bellus...has gone from F>M>F and now back to M...
notice the 'irregular'/circular pattern of stripes, which happened the last time 'he' reverted to 'she'!
http://mail.aol.com/34561-111/aol-6/en-us/mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=30539040&folder=NewMail&partId=1
This last change is happening, because I removed the super-dominate 6" Lamarck Male, and added a small Bellus Female, 2 weeks ago.

albano

11/18/2011, 04:19 PM

not sure if pic is showing...
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/gallery/files/3/2/2/7/photo_2.jpg

joejoe1055

11/18/2011, 08:09 PM

sorry to hear about ur friend

acronautical

11/18/2011, 09:20 PM

Peter, I'm so sorry for your loss.
Steve.

SDguy

03/28/2012, 08:13 PM

Well, it's been a couple months since adding a tiny female, and here is the old female! I'm actually shocked how similar she looks to the original male, even down to the dark blue all-over shading...

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish%20Pics%202012/IMG_0357-1.jpg

albano

03/28/2012, 08:25 PM

Well, it's been a couple months since adding a tiny female, and here is the old female! I'm actually shocked how similar she looks to the original male, even down to the dark blue all-over shading...

very, very nice...I may have to remove my dominate Bellus M, so that 1 of my 3 F swallowtails will turn male!

SDguy

03/29/2012, 09:58 AM

Thanks! Unfortunately I don't have many pics. Because I kept her in an acclimation box, which was pretty dirty, during the majority of the transition (which happened VERY fast) and for the remainder of the time she had really bad pop eye in one eye, so I never took any pics. These are the only ones I have...

Just before the change (notice the streamers on the tail already getting longer)
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish Pics 2012/IMG_0845-1-1.jpg

Here she is in the acclimation box for a timeout, almost all the yellow on the top is gone, and the stripes are JUST starting to show
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish Pics 2012/IMG_1034-1.jpg

Pretty much fully changed here... the stripes are still filling in:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish Pics 2012/IMG_1076-1.jpg

And the new female:
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p5/SDreefguy/Fish Pics 2012/IMG_1077-1.jpg

drdoolittle

06/03/2012, 02:13 AM

Wow, I'm pretty excited. I just got a swallowtail pair and a female mashed swallowtail this weekend. The three gets along pretty well. The male is huge and looks exactly like your photo, with long streamer.

The only issue is, I getting a trio bellus next week. The male is slightly smaller than the swallowtail male. My concern is, would they fight for dominance? Or would the smaller male just turn into female?

drdoolittle

06/03/2012, 02:13 AM

albano

06/03/2012, 07:40 AM

The only issue is, I getting a trio bellus next week. The male is slightly smaller than the swallowtail male. My concern is, would they fight for dominance? Or would the smaller male just turn into female?
IMO...you will have 3 F bellus

SDguy

06/03/2012, 07:50 AM

Gorgeous fish!!

Thank you.

Update: Since removing the pair of yellow longnose butterflies, I went ahead and added a second female swallowtail. This one is smaller than the male, but larger that the first female. All three have been getting along just fine. I love watching them interact with each other!!

drdoolittle

06/03/2012, 02:46 PM

IMO...you will have 3 F bellus

That's what I though.. Which kinda sucks because the male bellus is super nice as well. But my male swallowtail is much bigger.

albano

06/03/2012, 04:59 PM

That's what I though.. Which kinda sucks because the male bellus is super nice as well. But my male swallowtail is much bigger.
personally, I'd rather have the Zebra...and the F Bellus are more colorful

bullitr

06/03/2012, 11:08 PM

Dr.Doolittle male shallowtail angel is really nice
Also a Male masked shallowtail are very rare and very colorful.
Only If I can make my large female eat:(

drdoolittle

06/03/2012, 11:43 PM

Lawrance, the male video I sent you was regular not mask, the female was mask.

I'll try to post the video this week.

bullitr

06/04/2012, 09:45 AM

Lawrance, the male video I sent you was regular not mask, the female was mask.

I'll try to post the video this week.

Yeah got that
I almost got few more masked but the one I have hasn't eat well yet so I restrain myself .

So far I try mysis, brine, clams, mussels, pellets and Caulerpa no lucks
I will get live brine and Masago today if not I will be forced to tube feeding it in the next few days using a syringe and tiny silicone flexible needles.

drukkosz

02/21/2013, 11:14 AM

I have been looking for a pair myself but it looks like its impossible to find it. I looked in my LFs and online and nobody has them. If i buy two females will one change eventually to male??

albano

02/21/2013, 01:07 PM

If i buy two females will one change eventually to male??
I'd bet on it !... As long as you don't have any other, larger male genicanthus angels in the tank already!

drukkosz

02/21/2013, 02:45 PM

I'd bet on it !... As long as you don't have any other, larger male genicanthus angels in the tank already!

No, I dont have any angels in my tank, just one purple tang and bunch of small fish.

albano

02/21/2013, 03:36 PM

I usually try to buy female wrasses and angels... soon enough they turn to pairs/males

ChadRaay86

05/17/2013, 01:07 AM

Not only the color issue, but adding a male to an established female may not go so well, either.

SDguy,

I dug up this old thread when researching the prospect of pairing my female swallowtail with a male. Needless to say this has helped me understand things alot better than before, so thankyou :D

I think I might get the male and put him in QT, catch the female out of my DT (not hard) and drop her in the QT with the male and keep a close eye on them for a few hours. I'm worried that my female may be one of those "males in disguise". If it doesn't work and the female goes nuts on the male, both of them will be headed back to the LFS and I will just wait on getting a pair of them through the wholesaler. It just seems like a pity to get rid of my gorgeus and personable female :(

xtlosx

07/08/2013, 11:59 AM

Hey everyone sorry to revive this but wanted to ask about introduction of Bellus angels to a tank... Would it be OK to introduce the female first and let her acclimate until I can find a male to pair with? The reason I ask is I can get the female pretty much anytime, but males apparently are very difficult to come by here and I might be waiting a long while if I purchase them both together. Also wondering if $90 is a reasonable price for a healthy bellus female. What do you guys think?

tcmfish

07/08/2013, 12:08 PM

SDguy,

I dug up this old thread when researching the prospect of pairing my female swallowtail with a male. Needless to say this has helped me understand things alot better than before, so thankyou :D

I think I might get the male and put him in QT, catch the female out of my DT (not hard) and drop her in the QT with the male and keep a close eye on them for a few hours. I'm worried that my female may be one of those "males in disguise". If it doesn't work and the female goes nuts on the male, both of them will be headed back to the LFS and I will just wait on getting a pair of them through the wholesaler. It just seems like a pity to get rid of my gorgeus and personable female :(

So get another female...

Peter Eichler

11/02/2013, 11:55 AM

So, I had a female Bellus for a little over a year and was keeping my eye out for a healthy male. I finally found one and kept them for nearly 3 years with no color changes and regular spawning and spawning behavior. The male was considerably larger than the female and there was zero aggression when he was added as would be expected. He ended up becoming a bit of a bully towards my Copperband Butterfly. Sadly, I had a power outage earlier this year and lost some fish. All inhabitants were unphased except for my Bellus pair and a leopard wrasse. That leads me to believe they're a little more sensitive to either PH drops or lower oxygen levels than the average fish.

Some random notes...
The male Bellus started picking at clam mantles several months after addition. This was a very fat and healthy fish, so it wasn't because he was hungry. An unhealthy polyeasian clam seemed to start him on his addiction...

RIP

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n59/pseichler/ReefShots623_zps2e9239a1.jpg (http://s109.photobucket.com/user/pseichler/media/ReefShots623_zps2e9239a1.jpg.html)

So, after a little time passed I really missed my genicanthus angels and came across a healthy little juvenille/female Watanabei

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n59/pseichler/ReefShots174_zpsb3521814.jpg (http://s109.photobucket.com/user/pseichler/media/ReefShots174_zpsb3521814.jpg.html)

I asked the LFS to keep an eye out for a male for me... I took him home the day of arrival, managed to have the bottom of the bag blow out and have him hit the floor with a thud, put him in my frag tank in a panic with no acclimation where my purple tang proceeded to freak out on him. So, netted him out and threw caution to the wind and added him directly to my display after him being nastily tangled in the net. I fully suspected he was done for, the next tank he was a bit tattered but was eating flake food and happily swimming around the tank... Tough fish! Not even the least bit shy, he was soon gathering and nipping at my fingers when I feed like all the other little pigs.

At the same time I had picked up an achilles tang and quarantined him. A beautiful and healthy specimen, I decided to get him in the display tank after just 2 weeks. I had big fears of my sailfin tang, that I've had for nearly 10 years, ripping him to shreds. Similar fears with my longtime resident convict tang. But no, I watched in horror as the recent addition male Watanabei relentlessly pursued and ripped the achilles to shreds. So, despite their seeming delicate demeanor these can be some nasty fish. I would imagine that goes especially for a larger male since they're probably the extreme alphas of their species. Great fish, but I'll probably never add another fish to a tank that he's in that's even close to being his size.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n59/pseichler/ReefShots188_zps82b348de.jpg (http://s109.photobucket.com/user/pseichler/media/ReefShots188_zps82b348de.jpg.html)

Politiceaux

11/03/2013, 09:02 AM

kw22

09/21/2014, 04:47 AM

Enjoyed reading the thread.Bump

ayionna06

09/21/2014, 06:07 AM

I also enjoyed this thread. So if I am reading correctly just because you buy 2 or 3 females it doesn't mean they will convert to males? I have a juvenile wantanabi maybe a inch. Female for sure. I was planning on adding 2 more to create this harem. I also wanted to add 2 bellus females hoping one turned male. It almost seems and if I read correctly that if I were to do this there would only be 1 male. I can/couldn't have a bellus male and a wantanabi male in the same tank? My tank is 240 gallons

kw22

09/21/2014, 07:07 AM

In most cases one will turn male eventually.Problems can occur if 2 or more fish want dominance.

If you add 2 bellus,you will still only have 1 male chances are.It could be the watanabei or the bellus.

ayionna06

09/21/2014, 01:05 PM

So a person would probably need a very large tank if they wanted a male Wantenebei and a male bellus. Or this would never be possible?

kw22

09/21/2014, 01:09 PM

One would eventually turn Female and the dominant fish would remain male.

aquaph8

09/21/2014, 01:10 PM

Most likely never

sc50964

09/21/2014, 02:19 PM

How big is the risk of a male Watanabei converting to female if I don't have a female in the tank? I'm currently planning livestock and trying to decide if I need to get a pair. Do the males typically do better if a female is present?

That almost happened to me. I caught it early enough and added a female and that stopped the transition. But the male has lost the stripes.

SailAnnapolis

10/01/2014, 09:41 AM

I have what looks to be a mature male milanospios with very distinct vertical bars with no female. I've had him about a month now and he's doing great. Should I consider getting him a female and does it have to be a milanospios ? Sorry tried to read everything but just want to freshen up the thread.

albano

10/01/2014, 09:56 AM

las

04/15/2015, 05:51 PM

So, is it safe to say that a single male genicanthus angel will revert back to female if he doesn't have a female in the tank? What if he is in the tank with other male chaetondontoplus angel? How do you keep a male genicanthus's colors vibrant?

SeargentSlice

04/15/2015, 08:20 PM

albano

04/15/2015, 10:29 PM

I have a Male wantanabie I bought a pair the female sadly did not make it through QT. He is 5 to 6 inches and has bin without a female for 4 weeks today.Showing no signs of reverting at this point I am looking for another female to add atm so hopefully stays Male till then.
IME, even if he did start to revert, he will go right back to male once you get the female (even a different type of Genicanthus female)

SeargentSlice

04/18/2015, 08:28 AM

IME, even if he did start to revert, he will go right back to male once you get the female (even a different type of Genicanthus female)

Oh kool nice to know I was told I could put another type of female. I kicked the idea around a bit I really like the Bellus but think I will keep looking for a female wantanabie .

jda

04/18/2015, 08:32 AM

I have had single fish stay males after a female jumped. These were mature males easily 4+ inches with long streamers, the fat/thick chin and were males for many years. The males that I have had change back were immature males that were smaller.

What really sucks is that females can turn male when you don't want them to... I currently have a pair of Watanabei and my female Bellus turned male (boo).

On another note, I had a single immature male Melano... turned female over a few months... added another female... the new female turned male, not the one that was kinda a male already.

These things are all Rocky Horror Picture Show with minds of their own.

Vinny Kreyling

04/18/2015, 10:21 AM

Had a trio of females.
Right after removing the tank bully one went to a male.

drdoolittle

04/19/2015, 09:30 PM

Here is my collection.

http://youtu.be/UZWNobk1bWQ

drdoolittle

04/19/2015, 09:30 PM

http://youtu.be/UZWNobk1bWQ

mmotown

06/29/2015, 12:57 PM

jda

06/29/2015, 12:59 PM

I have a pair of watanabei. I put in a female bellus. The bellus turned male after many monty (not happy about it). No idea if yours would, but it can happen.

mmotown

06/29/2015, 03:58 PM

I have a pair of watanabei. I put in a female bellus. The bellus turned male after many monty (not happy about it). No idea if yours would, but it can happen.

In your case, it would be 2 males competing for a female. If I looked at this correctly, possibly my males would stay male because of that female...?

albano

06/29/2015, 04:09 PM

Guys I searched high and low for this thread and I hope I can get some responses. I have a male lamark angel in my 150 and a female spot breast angel. I have been wanting a male spot breast angel and I wanted to know if I was to add a male SB angel to the mix, do you think both would remain male because of the female spot breast already present?

PM sent...
I have had 2 male spotbreast (zebra) angels revert to female colors because of a dominate male Lamarck...I finally got rid of the Lamarck!

aquaph8

06/29/2015, 04:40 PM

I'm thinking that if it worked out at all, you'd most likely end up with a male Lamarks and female everything else.

mmotown

06/29/2015, 07:47 PM

albano

06/29/2015, 08:16 PM

Guys thanks for your replies. Both male species are beautiful. I just got the male Lamarks so I couldn't even consider getting rid of it. If a bought the male spot breast male maybe I could enjoy just knowing I have both of my wish list fish in my tank.One last thing @ Albano... do you think they would fight?
I think the more dominate/aggressive Genicanthus angel will make the other male revert to female colors...this has happened with Bellus, Lamarck and Spotbreast angels in my tanks over the past 5 yrs.
I really wanted the Zebra, so I got rid of my male Bellus and Lamarck angels...have had Zebra with 2 female spotbreast and female Bellus for past 2 yrs, without problems