I had a post deleted and account restricted...

[HoopsGuru]

Wow, you can get help from the fish breeding forum, but you're on your own when you want to get rid of healthy captive raised livestock.

I started a thread in the appropriate forum to begin selling the 63 ocellaris clownfish I decided to try to raise in April. It was removed, I suppose because I still get regarded as a commercial entity because I had a pitifully small online reef store in the past. Folks, nothing exists anymore, and my website more than acknowledges this. It does state I will be doing "HOBBY SCALE AQUACULTURE" and since the resulting juveniles of any species has to be sold (I don't find the hard work and $$ invested to mean I have to give them away here) this is a "commercial" endeavor but I don't see how this is any different from the folks selling "frag packs" in the Captive Bred/Tank Raised forum. I also had no problems with management when I sold captive bred BTA's that constantly split in my tank. I don't see the issue, I raised 63 clowns.....I have now moved on and am tinkering with Bangaii Cardinalfish (and have a mated pair of mandarinfish for the future). I'm enjoying tinkering with the pairs of fish I have in my reef tank that are spawning anyway....am I supposed to cull them all?

I wouldn't bring this up publicly, but besides deleting the thread I also had my PM and email privileges removed so even though I want to discuss this with management I'm not allowed to contact you guys....that is frustrating.

Why not remove the breeding forum so people aren't inspired to try it.:mad: Or at the very least, let people know when they have a thread ripped off and at least allow them to provide an explanation. I understand there are sponsors, but my 63 clownfish are not competing with any real commercial endeavor.

[ACBlinky]

There's a forum for feedback and questions, maybe it would help to post in there and talk to a mod about the issue.

[Semper Fi 1959]

Sorry to hear about this. As long as you aren't a 'store' of course. LOL I have yet to sell anything on here (haven't been here long enough to even try) but it seems like more of a headache than it's worth. And I don't mean the moderators or anything...but just all the ripping off and things. You really take your own risk with that whole mess. The only thing I have found is that if they feel you are here more for the selling than for the contributing, even if you AREN'T a store, then they'll boot ya for sure.

RC is for information and the selling is a priviledge to those that contribute regularly. I'm not saying you don't, I'm just stating the rules as I understand them.

Good luck selling your clowns!! That is pretty cool that you got them all raised up. I hear the bangaii's are easy (as you will find out soon enough). I also agree with you that there really is no difference in my cutting off 1 inch pieces of 10 different corals I own and selling them as opposed to raising 10 fish babies and selling them. You'd have to ask the mods about that though.

[gkarshens]

Things like that are what make me come to this site less and less often.

[corals b 4 bills]

I'm surprised that someone from RC didn't post there reasons for the deletion to you, or PM you about the suspention of your privledges to you before hand, very odd.

[Toddrtrex]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13129111#post13129111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HoopsGuru
It was removed, I suppose because I still get regarded as a commercial entity because I had a pitifully small online reef store in the past. Folks, nothing exists anymore, and my website more than acknowledges this. guys....that is frustrating.


From your website, which seems to contradict what you said above.

" In the weeks ahead, new things will be coming to the website. While the online store has been removed, there may be produts available again someday, captive bred livestock for local pickup are more likely to be the only commercial interest in the near future as I tinker with hobby scale aquaculture (my basement fish room!). If this is your first time visiting the site, bookmark it. If you are a returning "reefnut", keep an eye on things as the content expands in new directions."

[Semper Fi 1959]

Toddrtrex:

Just for my own knowledge, I am curious of something.

What IS the difference between me hatching fry and raising them up big enough to sell to you in my basement aquarium, versus growing sps corals up over time in my reef and cutting them into frags for you as a 'frag pack'?

Would either of these instances be considered commercial? Or is it the fact that he has a website where he sells these items in ADDITION to selling them here?

Again, just curious for my own benefit...I'd like to know what makes it 'commercial'.

THANKS!

[Toddrtrex]

This is how I see it.

If you have a separate tank for either fry or coral frags, that would be a red flag.

Having a wed site for it is another red flag ( IMO, a bigger one )

To me, there is a difference between selling some frags ( even making it a pack ) of corals from your display tank, that have grown too large, and setting up a different tank for them.

Like right now ( if I wanted too ) I could most likely make a couple of frag packs from my 58. But, that is only because they have grown too large -- I am not intentionally growing them to sell. That would not be considered commercial.

[kau_cinta_ku]

I beleive it is the quanity of items your trying to sell.

if you frag a coral every so often like Todd said that is one thing, but tring to sell alot of the same thing makes you look commercial.

just my .o2

[dc]

Hoops, long time no see first. But the fact is that you are commercial, and we don't allow commercial people to sell here, it defeats the purpose of our forums.

Your email is not up to date as it was returned to the mod who probated you. You may contact almost any mod by
username(at)reefcentral

[dc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13129757#post13129757 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Semper Fi 1959
Toddrtrex:

Just for my own knowledge, I am curious of something.

What IS the difference between me hatching fry and raising them up big enough to sell to you in my basement aquarium, versus growing sps corals up over time in my reef and cutting them into frags for you as a 'frag pack'?

Would either of these instances be considered commercial? Or is it the fact that he has a website where he sells these items in ADDITION to selling them here?

Again, just curious for my own benefit...I'd like to know what makes it 'commercial'.

THANKS!

You can't stop your corals from growing, it's an effort to raise fish. That is the big difference. Making anything to sell is considered 'commercial' by our standards.

[dc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13129590#post13129590 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gkarshens
Things like that are what make me come to this site less and less often.

That would be your choice, but our rules are pretty simple. Most people follow them.



Now I'm leaving this here to give Hoops a chance to see this, then it will either be locked or removed from view. I suggest everyone else stay out of it.

[Dino]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13130130#post13130130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dc
I suggest everyone else stay out of it.

But, but, but!! :(





:p

[buck50bmg]

So all of us that have frag tanks are a commercial enterprise? Why dont you guys revise your rules so its clearer?

[mhurley]

buck,

No....but it's about volume, frequency and intent when growing and selling frags. There can be no perfectly defined x+y= commercial fragging rule because the circumstances are unique to ever persons tank, especially to tanks of varying sizes. So each situation is looked at by the moderators on its' own merit.

[smiller]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1105272

"They are not intended in any form or fashion to be used as a commercial outlet. Please keep in mind that being seen as commercial does not necessarily require you having a brick and mortar or online store. Selling with the foremost thought of making money, having a large inventory, a constant supply of an item, buying and reselling, growing out coral with the intention of selling and other factors will at a minimum make you appear commercial according to our guidelines. Recognizing that it is impossible to construct a definition which will satisfy every situation or circumstance, Reef Central reserves the right to determine whether or not a post violates the “intent” of the “commercial post” policy or definition."

[baitshopboy]

I think I get it. So lets say my clowns decide to make some babies and I set up a fry tank just to give it a try and it works it would be okay to sell them here. But if I did it all the time then its against the rules. Is that correct?

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13130130#post13130130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dc

I suggest everyone else stay out of it.

This attitude is what makes ME come here less and less. This is an issue between RC and the OP, but the issue impacts us all. If a member has an experience that doesn't fall squarely within the terms of the rules but RC mods take a particular position (e.g., linking to an ebay product), I think the mods would want to know how members interpreted the situation, and how the terms could be made more clear/better/etc. I didn't see one post here that was disparaging, like "you mods suck for doing this . . ." I do understand, and agree, with the conclusion, although I do think a lot of people cross the line here with selling corals (i see little to no difference between fragging corals regularly and selling babies that your clowns had).

My guess is RC makes a lot of money off of its members (through advertising, etc) and I think it behooves the mods to be open and to listen to members so they can better the site, clarify the rules, etc. by processing feedback. "Everyone else, butt out" isn't a good--or right--way to make the site the best it can be.

[aquaman67]

Hey hoops!

Sorry for your troubles. You inspired me to even try this hobby.

I think the problem comes from not being strictly a hobbyist.

Someone who has never, ever ventured into commercial business and just sells off what happens naturally in their tank is different than someone who has/had a business.

[Macimage]

I would say your website qualifies you as a commercial seller.

On the other hand, I do not think the following quote from an RC mod was appropriate:

I suggest everyone else stay out of it.

After all, mods can lock or close the thread. There is no need to be rude to all other RC members.

EDIT: After reviewing your profile, I am not even sure you are a mod, however, your statement sure makes it look as though you are:

But the fact is that you are commercial, and we don't allow commercial people to sell here, it defeats the purpose of our forums.

Joyce

[kar93]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13130172#post13130172 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by buck50bmg
So all of us that have frag tanks are a commercial enterprise? Why dont you guys revise your rules so its clearer?

It's just if you are purposely fragging the corals or raising the fry just to sell them then that is considered commercial. Where as if you're doing it for your own benefit but just want to sell to make some room then this is allowed and wouldn't be considered commerical. But as Debi said, I think its best we all stay out if it.

[Mark426]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13130130#post13130130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dc
I suggest everyone else stay out of it.

Come on... this only enhances the reputation RC has across the net. No need to be rude to the very people that make this forum exist.

Mark

p.s. I do agree that it is a commercial post

[Dino]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13130759#post13130759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Macimage
There is no need to be rude to all other RC members.

I know Debi pretty well and highly doubt she was trying to be rude - more giving useful advice ;). Threads like this tend to turn into hornet nests with people coming out the woodwork and jumping on the bandwagon without knowing all the facts. And when that happens nothing constructive happens.

[kar93]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13130830#post13130830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark426
Come on... this only enhances the reputation RC has across the net. No need to be rude to the very people that makes this forum exist.

It is a situation between the mods and the original poster and they are the only people that can resolve the matter. I very much doubt Debi was trying to be rude. She was just stating that it would be best if we stayed out because in situations like this people get the wrong end of the stick and that can result in threads and posting privileges being removed which does nothing but make the situation worst rather than solve it.

[Sk8r]

"It is a situation between the mods and the original poster and they are the only people that can resolve the matter. I very much doubt Debi was trying to be rude. She was just stating that it would be best if we stayed out because in situations like this people get the wrong end of the stick and that can result in threads and posting privileges being removed which does nothing but make the situation worst rather than solve it."

I do second that: the mods attempt to handle each case individually, by the facts of that case. Not all can be dealt with at once, with intersecting voices each with a different set of facts.

If you wish to discuss a general point of policy, it would be easy to start a post which poses a pure hypothetical and asks a mod to help clarify the rules.

Having a case with a history which is not totally clear to everyone participating here is a problem. many intersecting voices each with a different situation raise an emotional level in which some people may eventually take extreme positions to make a point---and this just does not help resolve what is, yes, a very serious question: How SHOULD amateurs maintain their status and still find homes for their baby fishes?

Common sense would say to me that an operation that just pays for tanks and upkeep is breakeven and amateur. But that should be discussed in a separate thread, IMHO. Mind, I'm not a mod, just a gofer, so that opinion is meant as a helpful guess, nothing official.

[LionfishFinatic]

I don't get how you can 'assume' someone is commercial by looking at a post, looking at a website and just decide that this person shouldn't be selling this particular item on a public forum. you don't know the guy personally,or have even talked to him one on one besides through the internet or e-mail. i have seen a lot of posts in the selling forum saying "i am in a rough time and need some money so i am selling this frag pack" how do you know this guy isn't a vendor who frequent the forums and sell things regularly??? you don't. and how is that not commercial either??? I know a fellow hobbyist who owns his own website selling frags because he can't stop them from growing and the only way fast enough is via a website. and he has also posted here before selling packs. I have not read the post in question yet and mean to do so, so sorry if i have it all wrong :lol:

P.S this may have sounded like an attack....it wasn't ;) so good luck to you hoops, and sorry mods for anything that may affend you :). just ranting my thoughts here and now i am done

[LobsterOfJustice]

This is ridiculous. Way to encourage captive breeding from regular hobbyists, RC. This hobby will never get anywhere with this attitude. And BTW, even if he sells all those clownfish I still doubt he will be making a profit, just covering some of his expenses and trying to be a responsible reefer...

Also, almost everyone on here selling frags packs is doing so from a frag tank, for profit. I hope you shut down all sales of LE corals, because we all know they aren't growing too big in someone's tank and they are just making room...

[kar93]

As far as I know the clowns were raised to be sold. This is considered commercial. And like Todd said another red flag is raised by the fact that he owns a commercial reef website. It's not trying to discourage captive breeding, it is trying to discourage commerical sales on the RC boards.I agree with Sk8r so, lets just let the mods do there work. Its hard enough keeping track of a website with almost 200,000 members without other people intervening with there "rants" as this is no way to solve the problem.

[mhurley]

So LOJ, in your perfect world, how would you manage this?

When do you think someone should be deemed commercial and restricted? When they have 1 prop tank? How about 2? Maybe 1 big tank and one small one? Maybe they sold 10 frags or 20 captive bred clowns....Or maybe 30....Maybe we should put every case up to popular vote ( :lol: )...maybe they should send us their tax returns to prove their profits & losses... Just how gray should the line be that people have to cross because this situation is not, has not, and never will be a black and white decision.

What I'm saying is that it is impossible to pre-define all the rules so we evaluate each case....The [ua] even states exactly that!

We don't have RC Private Investigators to send to people's homes to inspect the situation and we cannot expect objective input from their local friends. So we do the best we can, with the time our volunteers have and with the resources available to us.

Nobody said that this guy is evil and can't participate here. We said he can't sell his fish here. There's a million other outlets to do so.

[buck50bmg]

!!!!!! LOUD NOISES !!!!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KakinPNRiDc)

[dc]

I wasn't trying to be rude, but posts like this tend to cause a 'jump on the bandwagon' frenzy. People who have no idea what they are talking about start calling us names, make false accusations, etc...we have to ban people to save them from themselves. Maybe I wasn't tactful enough, but sugarcoating it rarely works.

[dc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13130469#post13130469 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
This attitude is what makes ME come here less and less. This is an issue between RC and the OP, but the issue impacts us all. If a member has an experience that doesn't fall squarely within the terms of the rules but RC mods take a particular position (e.g., linking to an ebay product), I think the mods would want to know how members interpreted the situation, and how the terms could be made more clear/better/etc. I didn't see one post here that was disparaging, like "you mods suck for doing this . . ." I do understand, and agree, with the conclusion, although I do think a lot of people cross the line here with selling corals (i see little to no difference between fragging corals regularly and selling babies that your clowns had).

My guess is RC makes a lot of money off of its members (through advertising, etc) and I think it behooves the mods to be open and to listen to members so they can better the site, clarify the rules, etc. by processing feedback. "Everyone else, butt out" isn't a good--or right--way to make the site the best it can be.

Experience, we know how these threads go whether we say anything or not. My intent was to let Hoops know how to contact us, since we apparently cannot contact him. Trust me, we would have gotten bad feedback no matter what I said or how said it.

We are very open, and usually do this in emails.

[kar93]

This has been mentioned in this thread but I know some people don't read the long post so.
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p452/kar93-golf/RC%20Smilies/Readthecontract.gif Read the User Agreement (http://reefcentral.com/agreement.php). You agreed to it when registering with this website so the right thing to do would be to take things in and obide by the rules and not just scan through and tick the box when registering.

[dc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13130950#post13130950 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LionfishFinatic
I don't get how you can 'assume' someone is commercial by looking at a post, looking at a website and just decide that this person shouldn't be selling this particular item on a public forum. you don't know the guy personally,or have even talked to him one on one besides through the internet or e-mail. i have seen a lot of posts in the selling forum saying "i am in a rough time and need some money so i am selling this frag pack" how do you know this guy isn't a vendor who frequent the forums and sell things regularly??? you don't. and how is that not commercial either??? I know a fellow hobbyist who owns his own website selling frags because he can't stop them from growing and the only way fast enough is via a website. and he has also posted here before selling packs. I have not read the post in question yet and mean to do so, so sorry if i have it all wrong :lol:

P.S this may have sounded like an attack....it wasn't ;) so good luck to you hoops, and sorry mods for anything that may affend you :). just ranting my thoughts here and now i am done


There's always a lot more than just reading a post before we make any judgements. I'm sure there are lots of people selling that shouldn't be. We rely on other peoples reports, information, and other avenues before we classify anyone commercial. And our definition of commercial is not a store, there are several things that put people in that category.

Notice how something controversial has jumped to 2 pages in no time at all, while others sit with just a couple answers. This is what I was trying to avoid.

[dc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13130759#post13130759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Macimage
I would say your website qualifies you as a commercial seller.

On the other hand, I do not think the following quote from an RC mod was appropriate:



After all, mods can lock or close the thread. There is no need to be rude to all other RC members.

EDIT: After reviewing your profile, I am not even sure you are a mod, however, your statement sure makes it look as though you are:



Joyce [/B]

??? What should my profile read? The RCMod at the left should be enough. :lol:

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13131332#post13131332 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dc
Experience, we know how these threads go whether we say anything or not. My intent was to let Hoops know how to contact us, since we apparently cannot contact him. Trust me, we would have gotten bad feedback no matter what I said or how said it.

We are very open, and usually do this in emails.

I understand, and can appreciate the problem.

[Semper Fi 1959]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13131378#post13131378 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dc
Notice how something controversial has jumped to 2 pages in no time at all, while others sit with just a couple answers. This is what I was trying to avoid.

HAHAHA, I know how THIS feels. I have a thread in here that Melev started for me and still get no responses...except from Marc himself...and the OCCASIONAL stopper by.

Debi - you should go check the thread out that I'm referring to. It reads like a long PM between Marc and myself. :lol:

He named it "Semper Fi's Tank Thread"

[dc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13131570#post13131570 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Semper Fi 1959
HAHAHA, I know how THIS feels. I have a thread in here that Melev started for me and still get no responses...except from Marc himself...and the OCCASIONAL stopper by.

Debi - you should go check the thread out that I'm referring to. It reads like a long PM between Marc and myself. :lol:

He named it "Semper Fi's Tank Thread"

LOL, I've seen that thread. Beats Marc talking to himself.;)

[kar93]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13131570#post13131570 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Semper Fi 1959
HAHAHA, I know how THIS feels. I have a thread in here that Melev started for me and still get no responses...except from Marc himself...and the OCCASIONAL stopper by.

Debi - you should go check the thread out that I'm referring to. It reads like a long PM between Marc and myself. :lol:

He named it "Semper Fi's Tank Thread"

I'm lurking. Just can't think of anything to say that Marc hasn't already covered.

[dc]

Cool, I can post in locked threads too. :D


I've locked this as I see Hoops is on and surely read this and if he chooses we can continue this privately.

No posters were harmed in this thread