Is copper safe for FOWLR?

[chevegan]

I've never had to use it before so I was just wondering if it harms the Bio life in the rocks or filtration.

[Sk8r]

kills it. Dead tank, no bacteria, no filtration, nothing. Fish will survive because they're bigger than bacteria and ich parasites, but even they take some damage as time passes, and ultimately will not fare well.

I take it you have at least one fish with ich. You have two choices: either pull ALL fish to quarantine and treat them there either with copper or with hyposalinity...
THEN do not get let another fish get into that main tank for 6-8 weeks (without fish to parasitize, the ich starves out in that time frame). Continue to feed inverts as appropriate. They'll be fine in there.

Choice two, feed garlic (a food supplement the function of which nobody understands or agrees on) and hope the sick fish doesn't take the rest with him. If they all die, you STILL must leave that tank fishless for 8 weeks to be safe. And quarantine all new purchases.

[chevegan]

I have a bi-color angel and a pear-scale butterfly with it. I heard if I drop the salinity way down it kills off the stuff right? My buddy ran it down to 1.019 and it worked for him.

[saltyESQ]

couple things:

first, hyposalinity requires you to bring down the salinity to .009 for at least 5 weeks (you can only do this by using a refractometer). Bring down the salinity over a 48 hour period or longer.

Second, you must take out all LR and inverts (before you bring down the salinity). Both LR and inverts will not survive the journey. If you have a deep sandbed, it might also be a problem. I have a 1.5" sand bed and it wasn't a problem.

Third, to be on a safe side I would check you PH daily as the lower salinity can drop your PH. I bought a bottle of PH buffer and had to use it.

fourth, check you salinity daily if you don't have an ATO to keep the salinity below .009.

any questions?

[saltyESQ]

BTW, did you pick-up that pearlscale butterfly at tropical imports? I saw one there a week or so ago.

[danorth]

I had to use Copper Power twice. It killed the ich in 4 days, but I left it for 30. Follow the instructions. That same rock is used in my 240 where my carpet anemone resides and my 2 tiger cowries. Before I took down the 135 that got hit with the copper (without the anem and tigers in it during dosint) I saw pods in the Emp 400. So, I don't think it kills everything off as suggested....as long as Copper Safe is the same as Copper Power which I used. Formalin 3 is what is supposed to kill everything off from what I read on wwm.

But I'm sure I will be 'corrected' by someone.....it never fails. All I can speak of is what I've done and can attest to.

[chevegan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13144922#post13144922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by saltyESQ
BTW, did you pick-up that pearlscale butterfly at tropical imports? I saw one there a week or so ago.

I sure did. He's eating ON1 and 2 pellets like a champ

[chevegan]

Ok so another question. Only 7lbs of it is actual live rock which I purchased. The rest was lace rock I've had for a year and a half essentially making it live with benificial bacteria. What I don't get is that copper kills inverts, but how about bacteria? Don't people with wet/dry's use them all the time?

[discusone]

wow,loaded question.Debates will erupt about this bigtime.

Copper is not for use in the DT.Its use is in a QT,where its theraputic levels can be monitored,adjusted,and if neccessary,removed.

Evidence suggests that copper will slow the nitrification of bacteria.but not kill it off.The bacteria die back some,but are still alive.Their ability to convert ammo to nitrites,then to nitrates are reduced signifcantly.

But bacteria are super tough,and will adjust to the CORRECT,copper levels.Copper is a poison,agreed,but is less so to fish,and to bacteria.Copper treatment is labor intensive,time consuming,and tricky to do correctly.It is not a dump this amount in the tank,and then go about your business.
But,IMO,it is really the only sure way to achieve the truely ick/velvet free tank.I could get into why i will never do hypo again,but thats for another argument filled thread.Good luck!

[e55MD]

discusone,

Please elaborate as to why you would not do hypo again. I am still vacillating between treating with hypo vs Cupramine in my HT.

Thanks!

[Stuart60611]

If you are dealing with ick in the display tank, I have heard good things about Ruby's (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~medications_ruby_reef.html). Allegedly works and is reef safe.

[discusone]

e55MD,here goes,
I also bought into the theory of hypo in the past.However,i tried the hypo routine on 3 different fish,a PBT,a singapore angel and lastly a white-faced butterfly,which by the way broke my heart when i did not make it through hypo.
Ist problem:Ph instabiliaty.Trying to maintain a 8.0ph is difficult enough with proper salt water.When you lower the salinity,with fresh water,you lower the PH.Then we try and bring the PH up with additives( take your pick of products),and the PH shots through the roof.OH crap!.Lets bring it back down!You see where i am going?Up,down,Up,down.
2nd issue:Ick surviving through the hypo treatment.I lowered the salinity to the prescibed 1.009 with the singapore angel,while all the time fighting the PH issue.This fish ate Formula Two and shaved mussell the whole ordeal!.After 3 weeks,i SLOWLY brought the salinty back up over 5 days,as i recall.At about 1.021,white spots reappeared!Lets not even think about velvet,which is much tougher than ick to kill off.Did not make it through the attempt to relower the salinity a second time.
I am not the only one who has seen this happen.
3rd issue:Nature designed saltwater fish to live in salt water.We are not talking about mollies or scats here,We are dealing with reef dwelling animals,who recieve a benefit from ocean water.To subject them to unnatural water conditions is suspect.Both the PBT and the white-faced buttrefly stopped eating for me when the salinity in my QT hit 1.014,or there abouts.Who knows what kind of damage was done to internal organs,or,digestion,respiration.?.
So,l can only say,copper is the only sure way,IMHO,to ensure that you do not come home one evening to find that prized fish in your reef tank covered in white spots,or the dreaded yellowish sheen of velvet.Copper treatment is a serious endeavor,not to be taken lightly( and i have been quilty of that,believe me).It takes attention to detail,lots of laobor, and the desire to keep that special fish for many years down the road.Sorry for the rambling on and on.I think this is the longest post of my short 5 years stint of being on RC.Think i will go grap a beer.

[saltyESQ]

3 weeks was not enough time in hypo. 5 weeks min and 6-8 would even be better.

[discusone]

okay,6-8 weeks at an unatural salinity,which this fish has never been subect to ,ever.And that is benefical how?

[discusone]

saltyESQ,as i sit here pondering this,as we all know,nature is a wonderful machine for adaptation.A parasite designed by nature to feed off a specific host, namely our fish,why would you give this parasite longer to adapt to condtions?
Possibly,in the first couple of days,the parasite might be knocked off alittle,but then would adapt to condtions quickly.Basically says after a few days,"hey this isnt to bad,gee im going to adapt and go feed and reinfest that host fish up there".There is nothing but clean,low salinity water,nice temps,with nothing to stop the parasite to live on.

[JustinReef]

I don't know why I get involved with these debates but...

I used to push hypo like there was no tomorrow. I own a bunch of puffers, so hypo was always the way to go as copper can be harmful on scaleless fish. Im through with hypo!

I had my previous tank set up, ich free (or so I thought) for over a year. Never a sign of ich. Nothing introduced without QT. I even QT'd snails, I was so paranoid. I had a nano tank set up to QT corals, snails, crabs, rock, ect. for a month before going into the tank. No fish in the QT...ever. All new fish were QT'd for at least a month. Then I moved. The fish got very, very stressed and what do you know??? ICH! Nothing new had been added to the tank in months. I now agree with those that say ich is present in every tank. Its all about keeping your fish stress free and the tanks levels stable. I DO NOT believe hypo kills ich completely. I used it many times in the past and thought it had eradicated the ich from my system but I doubt it. I think it kills enough of it to get your fish ahead of the game and able to fight it off in the future. So its not a bad thing. I have had fish die in hypo though from what I believe is stress. Im not sure if its a coincidence but out of the 4 triggers I have hypo'd, three have died. Out of the dozen or so puffers I have hypo'd over the years, none have died...so maybe some fish handle it better?

Anyways, my fish got ich during the move. I treated with hypo for 5 weeks and a few fish started to die, so I stopped and they all went back into the tank...about a week later, ich was back worse than ever. So back to the QT for 8 weeks this time. No ich seen after about 2 weeks and the DP was fallow of course. Back into the DP after 8 weeks and about 3 weeks after that, ich! YAY! So freakin 4 months later and a ridiculous amount of stress on my fish (some of which I have had for years) and there is still ich in the tank.

Its now about a month and a half later and most of the fish are doing great except one of my puffers who acts normal but gets spots every few days. I decided to see how well they could fight on their own with optimal water conditions and feeding 3 times a day as much as they want (garlic food). I work from home, so I can monitor them all day long really and they have looked great. I know there is ich in my tank but they all seem to be fighting it off just fine for now. Hopefully they can get through the 11 months...

Im not at all saying people should not QT, this is just my experience now and I have found hypo to be useless. It was way too much work only to see ich come back worse every time.

[discusone]

So,justinpsmith,
Just out of curiuosity,if you had been able to treat with copper,do you think you could have established a parasite free tank?

Knowing that you can not rid your fish/tank of parasites,using hypo,and can not use copper because of the sensitive nature of your puffers,chances are you will be restricted to certain fish only,those that fend off parasites easily.What are you left with?

This is a great hobby( what a lame term for what we put ourselfs through).Having a great love for butterflys,i will continue to battle with the illness,the copper dosing,and the hair pulling.Respect to all.

[Sk8r]

hypo is ONE point oh-nine, not point oh-nine, I believe. Please double-check.

[discusone]

Sk8r,

went downstairs to check,had to calibrate my refectometer anyway.It is indeed 1.009,supposedly.
Question,does anyone remember,or know,who came up with this guidline for the minimum salinity for hypo?.Was it scientific,with proof?.

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13148526#post13148526 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r
hypo is ONE point oh-nine, not point oh-nine, I believe. Please double-check.

Im not sure if I understand what your saying but if your talking salinity, Its 1.009. I actually went to 1.008 for a few weeks with not problems.

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13148507#post13148507 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by discusone
So,justinpsmith,
Just out of curiuosity,if you had been able to treat with copper,do you think you could have established a parasite free tank?

Knowing that you can not rid your fish/tank of parasites,using hypo,and can not use copper because of the sensitive nature of your puffers,chances are you will be restricted to certain fish only,those that fend off parasites easily.What are you left with?

This is a great hobby( what a lame term for what we put ourselfs through).Having a great love for butterflys,i will continue to battle with the illness,the copper dosing,and the hair pulling.Respect to all.

Yeah I do believe copper could rid the tank of parasites but its really hard IMO. The display would have to be fallow for at least 6 weeks I guess and even then Im not convinced thats long enough for ALL strains of ich. But yes, I have used copper in the past and it has always had better results. I just won't use copper on my puffers.

Well Im left with the fish I have which is a full tank for me anyways. I going to leave them in the tank to fight off the ich the best they can and QT specific fish when necessary. Ich strains are not suppose to live longer than 11 months, hopefully thats true! Otherwise, if the fish is not looking bad, its staying in the tank. I think all my fish went through some really, really bad weeks of ich after the second round of hypo and after getting through that, have either never had it again or very minimally. Hopefully that will continue.

I also will continue to fight this but I refuse to pull all of my fish out of the tank for a third time unless I know for sure hypo will work and so far it has not. Its just too stressful and they are doing very well in the tank and look happy.

[bsagecko]

First your DT should never be treated with any medication ever.....

Second chelated or unchelated copper should never be used

Third Cupramine which uses and ionic form of copper should be used in a QT tank only if it is a life or death situation and all other treatment options are not working

Copper is basically the most dangerous medication besides Malachite green or Formaline.........Note: Malachite green is an oxidized form of copper

Copper will kill basically anything including beneficial bateria

The Cupramine is suppose to not hurt the bateria as much as chelated copper

the best treatment for ich (which is what copper is usually used for)

Is a Hyposalination and a transfer method basically........

you bring the salinity down to 1.009~1.010 for several weeks

during this time every 2 days you switch into a new aquarium with all new everything and let the other one dry out..........

after about 2~4 weeks in hypo then you slowly bring the salinity back up to 1.025 over the course of another 2~4 weeks

sharks....eels...rays.....tangs...and mandarins should never be treated with copper

Mandarins however can't get ich as they are immune..........

i would not even try to treat a shark, eel or ray as they just die to easily..........

freshwater dips can be help full along with a treatment of flatworm exit and fluke remover

if your DT is exposed to ich all the fish should be taken out and it should remain without fish for at least 6 weeks if this is not possible then closing monitor all fish and you must remove any type of tang as they will get ich.......

( with some tang species you just mention the word ich and you get it..........lol)

BTW the good news is if they get ich and survive they will have a built-up immunity for about 6 months

[discusone]

well,chevegan,it was your original post,so you have chocies to make.
not everything works for everybody,so you will have to do some research and make your own decisions.Put your faith in what you believe,and,go on down the road.I suggest you spend an afternoon reviewing all posts with hypo and copper as a subject matter,and come to your own conclusion.best of luck.

[limitdown]

Copper does not kill ALL nitrifying bacteria in LR/bioballs.

Most people will put in a few pieces of LR in QT with copper. The downside to using LR is that it will absorb some of the copper so you will need to test your concentration levels daily and adjust accordingly.
When I use copper in a QT, I put in some live bioballs from my sump for biofiltration.
I've been doing this for 3yrs+ with great success.
During my first year in this hobby, I tried hypo a few times but had mixed results. I've had much more success with copper. I've tried a few different copper meds including coppersafe, but now use Cupramine exclusively.

[chevegan]

I'm using garlic at the moment and keeping the tank above 80. I've also increased the food intake to set their immune systems into overdrive. If that doesn't work and it spreads I'm going to quarantine all maybe at a LFS and copper them all lol