BB & No Fuge OK?

[happyclam]

I plan on having a minimal amount of LR (2 islands 8" tall, 6-10" footprints), and I wanted to do a BB. Do I have enough biological filtering capacity for fish? Its a 135 SPS reef with a Tunze 9010 DOC skimmer.

[crvz]

I sure hope so, I've been doing it for years. ;) Click the red house for details of my setup, its a 150 with custom 60 gallon sump.

[useskaforevil]

which fish and how many?

[happyclam]

crvz: nice build thread! Amazing tank.

useskaforevil: I'm actually afraid to say it, as I'm pretty sure it would be an overtocked tank, but here goes- feel free to make suggestions.
-15 Blue Green Chromis
-1 Regal Tang
-1 Orange Shoulder Tang
-2 Ocellaris Clowns
I was thinking about substituting the chromis for a school of anthias, beautiful fish.

[crvz]

If those chromis are still small, that's not a terribly large bioload, but they can get pretty good in size (5-6" or so). But the logic behind a barebottom setup is that you pull out wastes before they can break down, accomplished by good flow rates and no stagnant areas in the setup, which forces stuff into the skimmer. If this is done well, it's really hard to have too large of a bioload (though too many fish is a bit of a different thing, considering compatibilities and fish temperament).

[happyclam]

crvz: According to LiveAquaria.com & Sott W. Micheal's book, they max out at 3". If that is true, when all the my fishes are full size, will my tank be able to handle the bioload? I'm dangling on the edge between DSB & BB, there are my thoughts:
DSB:
- Provides alot of extra filtration capacity
- Consumes any food & detritus that falls to the bottom
- Provides a natural food source for fish & corals
- Stays clean pretty much by itself

BB:
- Gives a classy look to the display
- A efficient filtration system
- Allows you to have more flow

But some of the problems are: 1). I can't stand the look of a glass bottom, which would dictate I would have to put a small layer of sand on the bottom- increasing maintenance. 2). I probably won't be able to get the best flow in my system due to the fact that I can only place powerheads in the top of the tank (not good circulation under rockwork) & my configuation of overflow boxes really reduces flow in the setup.

[crichard6069]

I currently run a 75g BB with a 100g sump in my basement.. I just set it up this past April. In the past, I've had a couple of large DSB tanks (150g & a 55g)...

To be honest, I'm still on the fence. I do have to say I LOVE having all of the flow. That's just fun. 4 months later I'm still struggling with my flow though.. I've had as much as 64x turnover but backed off to around 41x turnover because the couple of softies that I have were being tossed around pretty good.

With that said, both with the 64x and 41x flow I've had to do some minor siphoning in the display each week. The crud tends to go to one corner and I just siphon it out.. it seems to be more like live rock dust than fish leftovers, but none the less it's too big and heavy to get to my overflow.

As for aesthetics, so far the DSBs look prettier... until they get old and full of crud and start leaching nitrates back into the main tank (that's my big fear with a DSB).. however, I've seen pictures of BB's after the bottom has been covered with coraline and these look amazing. 4 months into it I'm just getting to a point where the coraline is beginning to grow so I'm hoping I have a covered bottom in a few more months.

I've run for 4 months with no fuge. With that said, last night I drilled a small 5g acrylic tank that I'm going to use as a fuge. I plan on pumping some water out of my sump to this fuge and am going to put a 6" DSB in it with some macroalgae... hey, why not? ;)

[phenom5]

That's how I run my tank. The key IMO/ IME is lots of flow (I'm at 43x turnover right now, but I'm planning on bumping that up soon), and heavy skimming.

[crichard6069]

Yeah - I want to get my modded MJ1200 turned back on (1600 more GPH) but I can't quite seem to get it set without having my open brain coral fly across the tank.

[crvz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13160307#post13160307 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by happyclam
crvz: According to LiveAquaria.com & Sott W. Micheal's book, they max out at 3". If that is true, when all the my fishes are full size, will my tank be able to handle the bioload? I'm dangling on the edge between DSB & BB, there are my thoughts:
DSB:
- Provides alot of extra filtration capacity
- Consumes any food & detritus that falls to the bottom
- Provides a natural food source for fish & corals
- Stays clean pretty much by itself

BB:
- Gives a classy look to the display
- A efficient filtration system
- Allows you to have more flow

But some of the problems are: 1). I can't stand the look of a glass bottom, which would dictate I would have to put a small layer of sand on the bottom- increasing maintenance. 2). I probably won't be able to get the best flow in my system due to the fact that I can only place powerheads in the top of the tank (not good circulation under rockwork) & my configuation of overflow boxes really reduces flow in the setup.

Hmm, I'm not sure what the actual full size adult chromis is, but I've seen some honkers before. Hop has one that's gotta be pushing 6" ;) Maybe they do stay about that small (3" or so). Regardless, when you have a big group like that, you'll find the population kind of dwindle down over time. Hopefully you'll have good better success with that.

But a few thoughts on your DSB pros. I think your 1, 2, and 4 are either poorly worded or just bad information. A DSB isnt going to keep itself clean, it's not really a "filter", and food that falls to the bottom doesnt get consumed (in the idea that it's eliminated from the tank). It does get broken down further, but I don't agree with that idea that a DSB "removes" anything from the tank. Excess food, wastes, etc., that fall onto the sand bed are likely to get eaten by critters in the sand, but those critters are going to create wastes all the same. And while it may go through another round or two of smaller critters eating that waste, it is a finite process. At some point in time, these waste are just going to be sitting in the sandbed.

Before I really step in it deep (and have to start ducking for cover :p) , I'll admit that a DSB does serve a number of functions. Among those, it gives a good amount of surface area for beneficial bacteria to thrive, and it can help buffer an excess amount of nutrient import into a system (which really helps out lesser experienced hobbyists). If you rely on a DSB to keep itself clean and consume detritus, you will have nutrient problems down the line, resulting in a myriad of issues (high nitrates, algae issues, coral health problems, etc). Depending on the import/export delta, this could be a few months, to as long as many years, but it's inevitable should you ignore the limitations of deep sandbeds.

So what's my point? Contrary to a lot of peoples impressions, a BB setup is usually a better long-term (think multiple years) solution for high bioload tanks because it's easier to recognize and handle excess nutrient situations.

Last thought and I'll quit my rambling... consider a cutting board or something on the bottom of the tank. That's what I used, and it's much nicer to see than the glass bottom.

[happyclam]

crvz: your experience & observations on BB are certainly more concreate that just some articles on DSBs. Interesting idea with the cutting board, although I don't think I could do it. I just have to have some sand in the tank to make it look natural. So to that end maybe I'd do about 1/2-2" of SSB, maintained by weekly stirrings & siphoned by a gravel vacuum (plus maybe a sand sifting starfish maybe?). Like how Steve Weast maintains his SSB
http://oregonreef.com/sub_maintenance.htm

[crvz]

I've ruined enough deep sand to know what works and what doesnt. ;) My experience is probably higher than average, but it's how you sell it that cons people into listening to you (don't give away my secrets!). I'll admit that I do perfer the looks of a nice sand bed (not really 4"+, by a good covering), but my setup just wasnt designed for it so I don't bother. Viewing the sandbed as a consumable, much like Weast, is a good alternative.

[pledosophy]

It's possible to have sand and high flow. My reef is only a 65g but turns over 100+ times an hour. My sand ranges from less then an inch to 5 inches depending on where in the tank it is.

I choose to keep sand because I like some fish that like to live in sand beds. If not I would go BB. My wrasses and future jawfish need the sand.

[happyclam]

Thank you for the replys everyone. Now a couple more questions. I like the look of minimal LR, like XTM, SunnyX, & Leonardos tanks. So along with the moddified BB methodology (shallow sand bed- consumable), & no fuge, could I also use minimal amounts of dried LR (a couple shelf piecs), and still have a successful SPS reef? Or is that just not enough bio filtration? Also, my updated fish stocking scheme is this:
- Convict Tang
- Regal Tang
- Yellow Tang
- (2) Ocellaris Clowns
Is that too much of a bioload for a 135 SPS reef with BB, no fuge, & minimal LR?

[happyclam]

Update- just got my 2 shelf rocks from Bulk Reef Supply. I think I'll also get 3 Pukani dried rocks to raise the shelfs off the sandbed. Again, I'm still trying to decide between SSB or BB. Here are the pros I've thought up:
SSB:
- gives a more bright & cheary feeling (IMO)
- possibly refects light back up to the corals
- a spotless white sandbed + shimmer lines from MH looks amazing (IMO again).

BB:
- allows more flow, thus not as much detritus acumulation
- a glass tank bottom covered in zoanthids, Xenia, & mushrooms would look pretty cool
-easier to maintain (might not have to siphon as much as a sandbed)

Also, I was able to keep my approx. 10 gal (18" x 12" x 10") fuge (DSB, LR ruble, cheato), not sure if that makes a difference.

If I were to do a SSB, how would you maintain it spotlessly clean (eg: practically sterile)? If I stocked it with alot of sand-sifting fish & inverts, would that allow me to not have to siphon it as often?

[woodiecrafts]

Would it be possible to have the cutting board bottom and epoxy a very thin layer of sand over it for the natural look but at the same time have the same benefit of a bare bottom. Super flow, easy cleaning if need be, but a natural appearance all wrapped up into one.

Might not work at all or even be more trouble than it is worth, but the idea just popped into my head.

[crvz]

Some people have made faux sand beds like that, woodiecrafts, but I didnt really love them. I have a cutting board, and like it. probably more reflective than a sandbed, at least at first (until it's covered).

[woodiecrafts]

I wasn't sure if it would work or not. I have never run a BB but have been swinging the idea in my head on my next tank and since the topic had cropped up I thought I would chime in.

I appreciate the insight on the reflectiveness, I never thought about that.

[LUVSPS]

happyclam,
My thoughts exactly on the SBB. IMO, you should go for it. I am going to do it in my 120sps tank but I also have the question of wether or not sand-sifting fish and weekly stirring of the sandbed by me will keep it as spotless as I want it. :confused:

[happyclam]

OK, its pretty much cemented now (thanks LUVSPS), I'm going to do a SSB. What brand sand would you reccomend (ie: what is the whitest, easiest to maintain)? I was thinking the CaribSea Aragamax Sugar Sized sand, as it is cheap, since it will eventually get removed & have to be repalced. Is this a pretty white sand?

Also, as previously stated, how would I maintain a spotless sand bed? Does this entail weekly siphonings? Or could I get alot of sand sifters (convict gobys, sand sifting sea stars, ect) and just siphon every 2 weeks to a month?

[happyclam]

any help would be appreciated

[LUVSPS]

happyclam,
I have the the Caribsea sand in my 29g and it is very white. When I first put it in I loved how shockingly white it was. But I made the mistake of putting too much sand in. I'm not DSB and not SSB which is an algea magnet. I have to do lots of water changes and stirring. Anyway, I am for sure going to do SSB, 1-2'', with Caribsea in my 120.

Also I am planning on getting a pair of Orange spot diamond gobies. I saw a video of them on Vivid Aquariums.com and have heard that they work all day cleaning the sand.