Cheap mangroves available on eBay

[Will]

No, this is not a commercial sales plug or anything, just something that mangrove seekers should know about. Someone from Hawaii is selling mangroves chutes (chutes? shoots?) on eBay, 10 for $10. It's a great deal and worth looking in to. A guy from here in Columbia told me about it and he said he got them and has been growing them with great success. So, if you want a mangrove but don't want to pay $30 for a single shoot, search for them on eBay.
-Will

[skylsdale]

I just checked recently and I think the going rate is 10 propagules for $11.95 + $7 for shipping or something like that--still a better deal than you'll find anywhere else.

I also contacted the guy to ask what sort of salinity they are collected from, and you should be aware that once he collects them from a saline environment, they are then kept in FW. If you just plop them in your sump or refugium with full strength SW they could go into shock or possibly die. Most people haven't had a problem...but I've heard some cases where they just withered and died. Just something to keep in mind.

[dupontsniper]

thanks for the info, have been harrasing the LFS to get me a couple, but now I will have to look in at Ebay. How do they ship in cold?(Minnesota) Should I wait till spring? Thanks, Shane

[kevino]

anyone know if they are red or black mangroves?

Y'all can just save some money and enjoy yourselves by visiting Florida's East Coast (Cocoa Beach area) and grab all the mangrove "seed pods" you like.

One thing to note though, don't come this week, as it snowed (just a bit) yesterday in Cape Canaveral!

[skylsdale]

They are red mangroves. Do a search on here and there is a mangrove thread where someone gave the exact words to search for on ebay--otherwise you may never find the guy. E-mail him and find out if they will survive the cold to your destination(I live in WA state on the west coast, so coming from HI he said they would be fine.) At $1 per plant, you can't really go wrong--and there's NO WAY your LFS will be able to beat that, since he probably paid more himself.

[Philip]

I emailed the guy about the cold and he was less than helpful.
I think the answer I got was "they'll be OK" but he wouldn't tell me how they were packaged. Somehow I don't think some mangroves in a bag shipped usps prioity will make it bouncing around in a truck when it's -10F out

[kevino]

not to be in anyone's defense, but in my experience, these things are pretty hardy. I have seen mangrove "pods" (I am not a botanist) stay in the heat of the sun on pavement for weeks and then go in water and begin to root, and shoot off their first leaves. I have also seen them stay on the sand in our winters (sometimes 4- 5 days (evenings) of 30 degrees F, and in the Spring, they begin to root.

I am not saying that the ones on ebay would fair as well. Just make sure you find out if they are rooted and already growing, otherwise you'll be in for a surprise, as I have had only a 33% success rate of getting un-rooted ones to sprout.

I live in FL, and I have grabbed literally hundreds of these at a time, and placed them in my refugium. For the ones with no roots/leaves: if you don't start to see roots in the first 2 weeks, it is my experience that you can forget about them. However, if you start off with roots and/or top leaves you have more like 80% chance success/survival.

They live in brackish water here (about 1.021) so I slowly get them used to the 1.025 my tank/ref is at.

Hope that helps

[kevino]

almost forgot, don't let your location fool you.

No matter what, if coming from HI, these will be in the cargo area of a plane, at somewhere like 25.000 feet (cold).

So eveyone has about the same chance of getting them in the same condition, unless the delivery from the nearest hub to your home takes forever.

I made the mistake of ordering some macro algae from Indianapolis (don't ask).... Anyway, even next day, the stuff was dead, and I blame it on the altitude of the airplane

[Philip]

even cargo airplanes are pressurized, the cargo would not fare well otherwise.
Usually the pressurization comes from bleed air off the turbine, so it would be warm.
I'd have to look at a winds aloft chart, but up here @ 24000 feet it's probably -40 or so (-43C actually, I looked.. good guess) at 34,000 it's -54c
they would not allow cargo to get nearly that cold.

those temperatures aren't going to change a whole lot between here and hawaii.

[dupontsniper]

ok thanks for the advice and cold weather input. I guess if nothing else, for that price, give it a whirl, thnaks again, Shane

[Philip]

I'm going to go ahead and give them a shot in probably a week, I'll let you know how it goes, gonna wait until it's in the 30's :)

[skylsdale]

Keep us updated Philip--I won't be ordering them for another month or so.

[Will]

I think I'm gonna go ahead and order some of them too. I was hoping someone who has gotten them would post here, but at 10 for $12, you really can't go wrong. Even if the survival rate is only 33.3%, that's still 3 mangroves. So, I too will let everyone know how it goes. One thing though, what should I do with all the ones that live!? I only want like 2. I guess I could take them to a reef club meeting and trade them..
-Will

[davidpt40]

I am a college student and I work for UPS (they pay for college,I'm a bio major btw). I have unloaded both aircraft and trucks. The truck trailers are usually within 5 degrees of outside air temperature. Aircraft containers- 'cans', vary in temperature. The biggest factor I believe is how long the can must sit outside before it is processed, brought into the building, and unloaded. I would estimate that a can is exposed to the elements (heat and cold) for about 30 minutes, which is enough time to fluctuate the temperature significantly. Then of course you have to figure in how much time it takes for the package to reach your house after it is loaded on the delivery truck, they have heating but it is not very adequate.

[Scleractinian]

Does anyone know where to look on FLorida DEP's web site to find out if FLA might be a better source than the eBay guy? I would imagine that someone from FLA (say from around Cape Canaveral)) might be able to double or triple the eBayer's price, ship faster (and warmer--or less cold for less time), and still find willing buyers here. My main question is Florida's mangrove protection laws... Some help here Florida people?


BTW... the lows here have averaged about 2.6F degrees over the last 2 weeks, w/ windchills averaging 10+ below zero... brrrr...

[kevino]

try this site for laws:

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH0403/Sec9324.HTM

I really have no desire to start selling these. I would much rather have you come here and enjoy our beautiful coast and on your way home, grab some for yourselves.

I never did ask what the group was going to use them for - nitrate reduction? I have heard several discussions about their in-effectiveness when compared to a macro algae, such as chaetomorpha (spaghetti). But I added some just for Bio-diversity.

[Will]

Hey Kevin,
I was actually in Cape Canaveral right after Christmas and I did enjoy your beautiful coast!! I was at the port though, so I didn't see any mangroves anywhere. :(
-Will

[Philip]

Originally posted by Scleractinian
BTW... the lows here have averaged about 2.6F degrees over the last 2 weeks, w/ windchills averaging 10+ below zero... brrrr...

it hasn't been above 0 here for awhile. -15 or so last night, it was down to something like -29 last thursday night, dunno what the windchills have been

[traveller7]

I have placed two orders from Brian, ebay user ID: 721 and all arrived alive both times. Once in Aug and once this Christmas.

As others stated, at $17 shipped, you can try a few times and still be ahead of the game.

Good luck and the ones my "friends" did not steal are doing great ;)

traveller7

[kevino]

fourhand2
They line the barge canal (if you took the port all the way in, though the locks. It is part of the Indian River Lagoon. The Beaches just on the South side of the Jetty of Port Canaveral are loaded with Mangrove seed pods, since they get washed out through the port when they open the locks to let the boats in and out of the river.
Glad you enjoyed it. I love it here.

[skylsdale]

As far as I know, in the U.S. it is completely legal to collect the seed propagules(whether they can be picked off the tree or must have already fallen, I'm not sure). However, if you start pulling up rooted plants from the substrate, then you get the smackdown.

[Will]

kevin,
The thing is, I was on a cruise so I didn't have much time to look around :( I was probably within a 1/4th mile from them, so I'm disappointed!! Oh well, I guess I'll just have to go on another cruise :D.
-Will
ps- My grandparents are actually down in Bartow right now (they'll be heading to South Bay and then Naples before heading home). Do you know of anything they might be able to bring back for me? Possibly some seeds? I'll give them a call and see if maybe they can stop by Cape Canaveral on the way home and grab some seed pods for me...

[PupChow]

I got some mangrooves from that dude like a year back... doing great! :-) Nicely packaged too. I thought it'd be a mess due to the price, but I have to say I am really satisfied.

[Will]

Well, I ordered mine yesteday. I'm guessing the guy will send tomorrow, so I should get them in about a week.
-Will

[Will]

I just thought I'd let everyone know that I got my mangroves today. They came very well packed and they look great! All of them are rooted and 8 out of 10 ten have leaves. Very nice quality mangroves, and especially for the price. I can't wait to see how they turn out in a few weeks!
-Will

[Will]

And a picture:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13246100_0316.jpg
-Will

[SurferStevo]

How were they sent? UPS, FEdEx, US mail? I just want to know which guy to bug till they arrive. :hmm6:

[tpeterson70]

Kevin,

I grew up fishing the barge canal out of a canoe. I lived right there in Villa De Palmas on Merritt Island. Now I live in Kissimmee and work in Palm Bay.
Anyway, I never thought about looking there. Where exactly do you go? Closer to the Sea Ray factory or maybe from the Kelly Park area?
Also, have you tried any of the macros that grow wild right there at Kelly Park?

Tom

[Will]

They were sent USPS Priorty Mail.
-Will

[Philip]

nice, they look healthy.

the daily temps are still hovering around 0 so I'm a little apprehensive about ordering them, don't wanna freeze em solid :(

how did you secure the plants, BTW?

[Will]

They're actually in a power filter (don't know if you can tell from picture), so I wedged them in between the filter cartridges. I think that'll be kind of beneficial because they'll be getting constant flow, and their roots will be able to absorb nutrients trapped in the filter media.
-Will

[traveller7]

True enough that nutrients will be there, but mine seem to like the roots "undisturbed". Meaning of the 20 mangroves I have, the ones that are in stagnant settings are growing much better then the ones in high flow sumps. I believe your power filter would be similar to my high flow sumps if not worse.

Either way, it is anecdotal.

[Will]

Thanks for the advice. :) I've got 10 of them, so I'll just experiment to see which ones do better in which places. Is it ok to have them completely submerged, or does the top part have to be sticking out? That's one reason I have them in the filter; they're about 5" shorter than the water surface.
-Will

[traveller7]

IMHE....Submerge'em and watch them turn black. I have floated them in styrofoam with the last 1" of pod submerged with great success. If you want them to form prop roots then you will need to let them hit substrate and slowly raise them out of the water. Keep in mind this will take many months in salt water.

If you have 10, put some in your full salt water system, some in your "water change" left overs diluted by fresh(brackish) and some in full on fresh water. By summer you will see a significant difference as the salinity decreases.

Get the full plant growing first, pods grow so darn slow in full strength salt water they are a novelty not an export mechanism. Although they sure add some conversation :) IMHO of course.

Either way enjoy and make sure you spray the leaves down every few days to wash off the salt accumulation.

[SurferStevo]

I just read the J. Sprung manual (link earlier in this thread). I think I want to put some in the overflow box try some in the substrate in the corner of the tank, some in a glass on the window sill, & some in the pond. I read that they have to be acclimated, it could be a while before they are ready to put in the tank. Didn't someone say earlier this guy keeps his stock in FW?

[skylsdale]

I contacted the guy from ebay and he said he collects them from a saline environment and then keeps them in FW until he ships them out. Not the best thing to do IMO if most people plunk them back into full-strength SW when they get them...but it sounds like most people don't have problems with this.

As far as keeping them in the powerfilter, the best success I have heard with groves is providing an environment where they encounter the least amount of disturbance possible. I really don't think they will appreciate the fast flow past their roots--in theory it makes sense, but the nature of the plant is a completely different matter.

Keep us all updated.

[Will]

I'll keep those in the power filter, but I'll also put some other ones in different places around the tank. I'm even thinking I'm gonna try growing one in soil and one outside. It's gonna be a big, fun experiment! :D
-Will

[SurferStevo]

Fourhand - I got mine yesterday. I was actually impressed at the foliage & roots on them. Can't wait to see them grow out!
Did you have to acclimate them to (salt water) your tank? Or did you just dump them in?

[Will]

Srfrmon, I was impressed with them too. I was expecting little twigs, but what a surprise! :D I just put mine straight into the tank with no acclimation; they're doing just fine.
-Will

[SurferStevo]

Some of them I just dumped in the tank & with the rest I thought I'd better acclimate them in case I screwed up & should have acclimated. The only problem with acclimating right now is that it's been pouring rain in So. Cal. so the rest are just sitting in the koi pond - later when it stops I'll put a few in brackish water & bring up the salinity slowly. I'll post a pic when I get more in the tank - there's only 2 in there right now.

[Alexis]

I got mine from the same place and put them directly into my tank. I placed under PC's and they grew great, then I setup my refug and the mangroves all started to slow down in growth and slowly die off as my macro took off...

[SurferStevo]

That's interesting I guess the macro just uptake nutrients faster. What kind of lighting do you have in the refugium? Originally I bout them as a nutrient filter - then I read that you need a lot of them for that purpose. Now I just figure anything will help & my magnesium levels won't drop much with 3 in the tank.

[traveller7]

Macros "take up" nutrients at a far faster rate the the mangroves. In the time it takes for a mangrove shoot to add 2 leaves in my salt system, I have removed 1+ quart of macro.

The mangroves I have mixed in with macros do much better when the mangroves are planted in a good substrate.

Mangroves seem to be decorative, but I do like them :)

[Saliki]

Im concidering collecting mangrove "pens" and selling em here from Florida. Im not looking to get rich, just basically get paid for the time and effort it would take to get em and ship em out. Anyone interested drop me a PM.
Here are a few questions I need to consider:
1. How much- like dollar a piece / 12 for 10 dollar?
2. How to ship em - Im in FLorida, so shipping should be better then Hawaii, cheaper and faster.
3. How to package them for shipping- wrap in plastic, pour local water into double plastic bag and seal?

Any thoughts?
Saliki

[SurferStevo]

I got mine shipped from the ebay guy in Hawaii - they came wrapped in wet newspaper with a zip-lock baggie aroung the newspaper. It seemed to work & probably keeps shipping costs down.

[Saliki]

^^^^
Ty for the input!
BTW- Mangrove "pens" are basically the seed pods that float...likethe picture on the top of page from Forhand2....looks like a pen IMO.
Saliki

[skylsdale]

Saliki, are you planning on just collecting the seed pods and shipping them "as is"? As far as I know, the guy in Hawai'i actually stores them in FW for a bit until they get shipped out(at least this is what he told me...) which I assume gives them some time to grow a few roots and leaf shoots. I don't believe straight old pods have this as they float around in the tide. You may want to take this into consideration, as many hobbyists prefer to have some growth on their mangroves when they get them.

[Saliki]

Thanks for the input. Im going to try and look into this ALOT more this week and weekend. I can see your point, some root growth would definitely be better then no growth at all. Would it be better to flaot them in saltwater, or fresh water? Wouldn't a more "dirty" seawater that I collected be better on the nutrients to help to get them to sprout?

[Archmagev]

I bought 10 from him about 5 months ago. They all looked fantastic, with good roots and leaves and so far all are thriving in my sump. I would recommend him highly for Mangroves ( unlesss you need something other than red's ). :)

[Saliki]

Here is a pic of some mangrove seeds:
http://www.mrcirl.org/shoreline/pictures/propagules.jpg

[skylsdale]

Mangroves in saline conditions have to "filter" out the salt in the water to use it. This can slow growth down quite a bit, hence the slow growth so often associated with them in captive marine tanks and sumps. However, in FW conditions the groves don't have to expend energy to do this--they can use the water "as is." People growing them in FW or extremely dilluted SW will notice much faster growth than those in a sump. I would recommend doing mostly FW, with maybe a slight amount of saltwater(red mangroves are found in some FW rivers and waterways, but generally keep to the esturaies and saline environments.) I would suggest using mostly FW to get some growth on them, maybe just add a bit of salt mix(or the seawater you collected them from) to keep them used to saline conditions(help prevent shock on acclimation.)

[adrianthomp]

kevino I want to know if you have any pics of your mangrove

[Saliki]

Went to look for some red mangroves this weekend....no seed pods to be found :mad: :eek:

[ddoering]

Hi,
I thought that red mangroves were a protected plant in Florida.
Not sure if that just applies to rooted mangroves, but before I would go collecting them for sale I would make sure with local laws.

I have also read that in Hawaii they consider red mangroves as an invasive weed, so there would be no problem in collecting them there.

Who knows if what I read was out of date, or incorrect, but I would error on the side of caution. Being a recent recipient of a traffic ticket for an imperfect stop at a 4-way stop, the fines for these types of infractions is typically out of proportion with the actual crime committed. In other words, it would really suck to get a 200 or 500 dollar fine for collecting propagules just because the guy who caught you was having a bad day and wanted to make an example instead of just giving you a warning.

If you know the actual statue covering that in florida, I'd be curious to what it said.

Cheers,
Doug

[ddoering]

Hi,
Was going through the Florida statutes from the link previously
posted in this thread.
.
From 403.9325 which covers definitions in regards to .9321-.9333


(1) "Alter" means anything other than trimming of mangroves.

(3) "Mangrove" means any specimen of the species Laguncularia racemosa
(white mangrove), Rhizophora mangle (red mangrove), or
Avicennia germinans (black mangrove).

(8) "Trim" means to cut mangrove branches, twigs, limbs, and foliage,
but does not mean to remove, defoliate, or destroy the mangroves.

So by these definitions, collecting "propagules" or seed pods or
whatever you want to call them is technically removing mangroves.

From .9323
(3) It is the intent of the Legislature to provide waterfront property
owners their riparian right of view, and other rights of riparian property
ownership as recognized by s. 253.141 and any other provision of law, by
allowing mangrove trimming in riparian mangrove fringes without prior
government approval when the trimming activities will not result in the
removal, defoliation, or destruction of the mangroves.


403.9328 Alteration and trimming of mangroves; permit requirement.--

(1) A person may not alter or trim, or cause to be altered or trimmed, any
mangrove within the landward extent of wetlands and other surface waters,
as defined in chapter 62-340.200(19), Florida Administrative Code, using
the methodology in s. 373.4211 and chapter 62-340, Florida Administrative
Code, when the trimming does not meet the criteria in s. 403.9326 or s.
403.9327 except under a permit issued under this section by the department
or a delegated local government or as otherwise provided by ss. 403.9321-403.9333.
Any violation of ss. 403.9321-403.9333 is presumed to have occurred with
the knowledge and consent of any owner, trustee, or other person who
directly or indirectly has charge, control, or management, either exclusively
or with others, of the property upon which the violation occurs. However, this
presumption may be rebutted by competent, substantial evidence that the
violation was not authorized by the owner, trustee, or other person.


Also, under a section covering fines:

(b) Up to $250 for each mangrove illegally altered.


Now I don't know if they can cite you for collecting seeds or propagules, but
the statutes stating that altering is doing anything besides trimming, which
includes removal of any specimen of the listed mangrove species, I would
be careful about collecting them.

Also, like most normal people, reading the legal jargon in the statutes
and understanding them clearly is not something I admit I can do.
I may misunderstand them, and may have missed some of the things that
they said in other places, but I would probably check with local wildlife
ranger stations etc in the areas you are going to collect. The statutes
seem to delegate some authority to regional government, and laws in some
sections may be different.

If you get an official response from local government or dept of fish
and wildlife or whatever, I'd be interested in hearing the response.
I'd be curious to know if I take a trip to Florida and pick some of these up
if I am going to get hit for a fine that I'd rather not pay :) If it
comes down to risking a fine or paying some guy in hawaii a few bucks to
pick up some of their local weeds and mail them to me... I'd go with
getting them mailed to me.

Cheers,
Doug