SPS lovers... Please help me decide what is going on in my tank!!!

[lukinrats]

Well, I hate to say it, but I am having some issues... I need to see if you guys can help me out a bit... I have some suspicions, but I want to narrow them down

For the most details, please look @ My tank thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1440723&perpage=25&pagenumber=1)

If you would just like to see pictures of my bleached corals, you can look
@ this page of my thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1440723&perpage=25&pagenumber=4)

Here are the things that I think could be my problem

-Nutrients too low
-Too much light... Par results can be seen here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1440723&perpage=25&pagenumber=1)
- Skimmer & PO4 reactor, are just too much nutrient removal
- Prodibio dose
- Vinegar that I was using in my limewater


I think that the biggest problem was not enough nutrients... My PO4 was .01ppm and my NO3 was not readable on my kit (lowest reading is 5 mg/l... Chaeto will not grow in my system either
To combat this low nutrient issue, I have dialed the skimmer back to skimming dry, and turned the PO4 reactor off... I only turn the PO4 reactor on, if the hanna meter reads, .04ppm or better

I hope someone can help me figure it out, so that I can get my tank to good point... I want to get it to a point where 1 little thing will not throw everything into a downward spiral

Later,
NathanS

[JER-Z]

i see you are using the prodibio bacteria and your alk is 9-9.5. Recommended alk in bacterial low nutrient systems is 6-8 dkh. I have experienced lightening when my alk was higher than NSW.

Try lowering it down to 7 and see if anything improves. But go very slowly, a sudden change can put them over the edge.

Also, if you are dosing bacteria, vodka, etc. you should also be dosing some food for your corals. ie. AA, coral vitalizer, or reefbooster, etc. Your corals look starved

[lukinrats]

I think that the starving look, is definately from my low nutrient system... I really am not dosing Prodibio, but only used the BioDigest that one time... I had been reading that when you dose only one of the carbon sources, that you can cause your tank to have no Bac diversity... So, since I was using vinegar to supersaturate my limewater, I thought I would dose half an ampoule, so that I could make sure I had good Bac diversity... I am not on that system, and won't be trying it again.

I think that you are definately right about them being starved... I feed my tank everyday, but I have no fish in there right now... I am feeding the following
Coral Frenzy
Reef Chili
Cyclops
Brine shrimp
Marine snow
Homemade mixture (shrimp, reef chili, coral frenzy, brine, mysis, blood worms, cyclops, silversides, and speckled trout)( I blend all of this up, and then feed this to my tank)

So, as you can see, I think I feed the right way... Even though I feed all of this, I have no nitrates to speak of, and my PO4 is hardly readable... I have the PO4 reactor off, but would like to know a good reading to shoot for, as I do not want it to get out of hand... Should I turn it back on when the readings get to around .05 ppm?

On another note... I can't grow chaeto either, giving me another reason to think that my nutrients are too low

Thanks,
:DNathanS

[JER-Z]

maybe try lowering your alk down to NSW levels anyway to see if it helps. you are definitely a low nutrient system. like i said, i saw improvements in my tank when lowering the alk a bit.

i don't have any experience with vinegar, but If it were my tank i would probably stop using it...at least for now until you figure out the problem. the vinegar could be driving the bacterial population too high and consuming too many nutrients? Just a theory.

[lukinrats]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13223886#post13223886 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JER-Z
maybe try lowering your alk down to NSW levels anyway to see if it helps. you are definitely a low nutrient system. like i said, i saw improvements in my tank when lowering the alk a bit.

i don't have any experience with vinegar, but If it were my tank i would probably stop using it...at least for now until you figure out the problem. the vinegar could be driving the bacterial population too high and consuming too many nutrients? Just a theory.

Thanks... I have stopped the vinegar, and I am just trying to cause more evaporation, so that the limewater can keep up... I might try lowering the KH some, but I don't know how that will work out... I use Coralife salt, and it has a pretty good bit of Alkalinity in it... Actually, I had been using a salt that had NSW levels of KH... I had only noticed better things from my SPS, when I bumped it up higher... I guess it is possible that things have changed, but they seemed to like the KH on the high side... I am almost positive that the dKH had nothing to do with this, as I had been keeping it up high for some time before this happened

:D NathanS

[Husky_1]

LukinRats,
I am by no means an expert, and did not read you thread. In Zeo world, once you get down to the UNLS stage people start adding Amino Acids to help color up the corals. A lot of people do this before getting to a LNS and find that it helps algae.

[jgrog76]

I looked at your buid thread and it starts on 7/28/08. How long has this tank had water and life in it? One thing I have noticed about SPS is for some reason they really do not do well in tanks that are new. Even if the tank tests out as cyled the corals will not grow well or be colored like they should/used to be in another tank. I moved up to a larger tank and all my established corals did the same as yours for the first few months after the move no matter what I did. Now it is almost 6 months later and with me doing nothing different all of the sudden the corals all just started to color up for some reason. I am sure there is alot more that goes on cycling a reef tank than we test for or understand. If your tank is really that new, even if most of the stuff was moved out of another tank, give it a few months without changing stuff all around and see what happens. I doubt you will find anybody who has a vibrantly colored "new" sps tank.

[lukinrats]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13225528#post13225528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jgrog76
I looked at your buid thread and it starts on 7/28/08. How long has this tank had water and life in it? One thing I have noticed about SPS is for some reason they really do not do well in tanks that are new. Even if the tank tests out as cyled the corals will not grow well or be colored like they should/used to be in another tank. I moved up to a larger tank and all my established corals did the same as yours for the first few months after the move no matter what I did. Now it is almost 6 months later and with me doing nothing different all of the sudden the corals all just started to color up for some reason. I am sure there is alot more that goes on cycling a reef tank than we test for or understand. If your tank is really that new, even if most of the stuff was moved out of another tank, give it a few months without changing stuff all around and see what happens. I doubt you will find anybody who has a vibrantly colored "new" sps tank.

Well, even though I started the thread in July, the tank has been running longer than that... I believe that I actually got it all back up and running in the beginning of May... Prior to that, it had been set up, and running in a large rubbermaid container, while we did some remodeling and getting new furniture... I had not been having any problems with the color, until a couple of weeks ago... I also had no problems with growth, and I think the growth is there... I plan on trucking along as I have been, but figure that it does not help to research my issues

This is hard to explain, but I actually had another thread going for my tank... It was called Lukinrats old and new 90 gallon... Unfortunately I figured out that the LFS had sold the tank to me as a 90, when it was actually a 75... That is the reason for the newer dated thread

Thanks,
NathanS

[madadi]

you need AA and you need it now. the vinegar is acting as a carbon source and its definitely feeding the bacteria which feed on the P and N. i would turn of GFO temporarily. keep running kalk with the vinegar so your alk will remain constant. take your car keys and jump in the car, drive to the nearest petshop and buy some fish! but seriously, you need to feed more. if you have no algae issues in the main tank, don't be afraid to feed your corals.

[lukinrats]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13229353#post13229353 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by madadi
you need AA and you need it now. the vinegar is acting as a carbon source and its definitely feeding the bacteria which feed on the P and N. i would turn of GFO temporarily. keep running kalk with the vinegar so your alk will remain constant. take your car keys and jump in the car, drive to the nearest petshop and buy some fish! but seriously, you need to feed more. if you have no algae issues in the main tank, don't be afraid to feed your corals.

This is how I feel, but I have read so many times about how AA are worth nothing:confused:
I no longer have the vinegar running, but instead I have a fan blowing across my sump that is causing a good bit more evap... This seems to be keeping up with my C & A demand
GFO is off, at least until my hanna reads .08 or something
I am working on the fish, but I still have to QT them

I am currently feeding the following:
Coral Frenzy (usually mixed with Reef Chili)
Reef Chili(usually mixed with Coral Frenzy)
Cyclops(usually mixed with the 2 items above)
Brine shrimp(for the cleaner shrimp)
Marine snow(every other day)
Homemade mixture (shrimp, reef chili, coral frenzy, brine, mysis, blood worms, cyclops, silversides, and speckled trout)( I blend all of this up, and then feed this to my tank)...

I am feeding the home made mix every day)

Today, I am getting freeze dried copepods, rotifers, and golden pearls (5-50 micron) and (300 to 500 micron)

I am not skimming right now either... At least I am turning the skimmer off every 12 hours... it has been off for 36 right now... I will prob turn it back on tonight... I still do not measure N and P is only .04 ppm... I am doing everything that I know how to do

For Aminos, I assume that I do not need to use these if I am not going to use vinegar, right?

[KJAhp098]

Hi lukinrats. Everybody sounds right about the AA dosing. As for the cheato growing....I wasn't able to grow it in my tank either while using prodibio. It eventually wilted away to almost nothing before I stopped dosing prodibio. Now I use it in my 225 with success.

[lukinrats]

Which AA do u guys recommend?

[GSMguy]

KZ AAHC

[lukinrats]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13233832#post13233832 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
KZ AAHC


I knew that was coming, but I was hoping someone would call out a cheaper one!!:lol:

[Husky_1]

I am running Zeo, so I might be swayed, but just about everything I have read about AA's on here says that the KZ are the best...And if you start looking at the amount you dose compared to others, I think you will find their price to be pretty attractive.

[sailfintang]

there are other AA options but I do not think they yeild as great results as KZ.

Warner Marine

Brightwell

These two would be alternatives if you are awaiting shipping on KZ stuff.

[lukinrats]

I can tell you this much... I have started adding 1ml per day, of Selcon, and it seems to have done something
I will get me some AA's too though... Will let this thread know what I see

Thanks,
NathanS

[lukinrats]

Ok, well, I bit the bullet and bought the KZ aminos... I guess we will see just how good they are

[JER-Z]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13237614#post13237614 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lukinrats
I knew that was coming, but I was hoping someone would call out a cheaper one!!:lol:

it may seem more expensive, but considering you only use 1 drop of the KZ HC AA per 25 gallons it probably comes out to be a negligible price difference compared to the other less concentrated brands.

I'd still try lowering the alk a bit...Why not? It's free and you use less kalk. Maybe stop using the vinegar to supersaturate your top-off water. 2-birds with one stone, no more vinegar and a lower more natural carbonate hardness.

[lukinrats]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13238953#post13238953 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JER-Z
it may seem more expensive, but considering you only use 1 drop of the KZ HC AA per 25 gallons it probably comes out to be a negligible price difference compared to the other less concentrated brands.

I'd still try lowering the alk a bit...Why not? It's free and you use less kalk. Maybe stop using the vinegar to supersaturate your top-off water. 2-birds with one stone, no more vinegar and a lower more natural carbonate hardness.


Ya, that is the conclusion I finally came to when I looked at the dosing suggestions of them all... I may lower the alk, but it seems like it is going to hang pretty steady around 9 dkh, without using any vinegar... I stopped the vinegar about 10 days ago, I am only keeping a fan running over my sump now... It is probably going to actually be hard for me to keep the alk any lower than 9, because the Coralife salt I use, seems to test out around 10-11 dkh... My water changes are not large enough to really cause it jump much, when I add the new water, so it should not be an issue

Thanks,
NathanS

[JER-Z]

in that case i'd leave it like it is. good luck w/ the aminos :)

[Jester]

any links ot where you buy your KZ HC AA..??

[lukinrats]

aquariumspecialty.com

[Jester]

I didnt realize that KZ was Zeovit... oops.. I ordered a bottle today... hopefully it wil lhelp with my loss of color in my corals...

[tquick]

Vinegar in your fish tank wow!!!! I guess anything can be done but when i use vinegar its to break down the calcium on inside of tanks not taken care of. With tank empty and nothing in it i take some paper towels soaked in vinegar tape them with a plastic bag over and sealed to glass come back 24 hours and removes all the calcium build up on glass with a wipe. So vinegar breaks down calcium used to form coraline and corals :) i personally would not dose that into my tank. As far as vodka dosing i see nothing wrong with a tank catching a little buzz :) in moderation. NO FISH get some fish your corals are starving. Your missing the number 1 food source FISH POOP.

[lukinrats]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13251639#post13251639 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tquick
Vinegar in your fish tank wow!!!! I guess anything can be done but when i use vinegar its to break down the calcium on inside of tanks not taken care of. With tank empty and nothing in it i take some paper towels soaked in vinegar tape them with a plastic bag over and sealed to glass come back 24 hours and removes all the calcium build up on glass with a wipe. So vinegar breaks down calcium used to form coraline and corals :) i personally would not dose that into my tank. As far as vodka dosing i see nothing wrong with a tank catching a little buzz :) in moderation. NO FISH get some fish your corals are starving. Your missing the number 1 food source FISH POOP.


Wow... What a contradictory statement!!! I really do not feel my problem came from the vinegar, but I did stop it... If you say that you would dose Vodka, then you should have no problem with putting vinegar in your tank... It is absolutely the same thing... Both are just used in our tanks as a carbon source, as is sugar... I personally was using it to supersaturate my limewater, so that it could keep up with the demand in my tank... It worked!!!
If you read up, you would see that vinegar has been used to do exactly what I did, with no ill effects... I will get some fish @ some point, but right now my corals are doing better... I started the thread to figure out if the Prodibio BioDigest had caused the bleaching, and now I am pretty sure that is exactly what happened... I had a low nutrient tank to begin with, then I put in bacteria that consumed what little I had, and my corals suffered for it... I have been feeding heavily in the tank, and not skimming or running a PO4 reactor... Everything is just about completely colored back up now... I am watching PO4 with a hanna meter, and watching my Nitrates as well.

Thanks,
NathanS

[Mykel Obvious]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13251845#post13251845 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lukinrats
... I started the thread to figure out if the Prodibio BioDigest had caused the bleaching, and now I am pretty sure that is exactly what happened... I had a low nutrient tank to begin with, then I put in bacteria that consumed what little I had, and my corals suffered for it... I have been feeding heavily in the tank, and not skimming or running a PO4 reactor... Everything is just about completely colored back up now... I am watching PO4 with a hanna meter, and watching my Nitrates as well.

Thanks,
NathanS

Hey N8,
So basically the BioDigest did what it was suppose to do, but the fact you were already pretty much at ULNS it was too much for the corals?? It IS good to know it worked, and I might look in to it if the Polyp Labs Reef-resh doesn't do the job in the long run... I'm at a false LNS with all my PO4 (and probably my NO3 as well) tied up in macro algae growth, I'm hoping that the Reef-resh will kill the macro off over time... I really need a skimmer upgrade and to plumb in my sump and work on my flow characteristics (running 3 flow modded Tunez Nanostream 6025s and a Koralia 1 but I'm still getting dead spots)

So do we get some updated photos now that things are doing better?? :D

[lukinrats]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13253880#post13253880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mykel Obvious
Hey N8,
I really need a skimmer upgrade and to plumb in my sump and work on my flow characteristics (running 3 flow modded Tunez Nanostream 6025s and a Koralia 1 but I'm still getting dead spots)

Well, I think the reason I have such a low nutrient system, is because of my skimmer... It does a surprisingly great job, and it actually got even better when I started using limewater... The thing was just stripping my tank... I have hardly run it all week, turned it on for 1 night, and it has been off at all other times... Seems to be working out for me... I am just watching nutrients, and turning it on when I get a nitrate reading around 5 mg/l... Also, watching PO4 with my hanna meter, and only turn on the reactor when I see it get higher than .05 ppm

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13253880#post13253880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mykel Obvious
So do we get some updated photos now that things are doing better?? :D

Of Course!!!

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/digi28-30-8.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/digi38-30-08.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/digi8-30-08.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/highlightermonti8-30-08.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/monti8-30-08.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/neoncap8-30-08.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/pinktable8-30-08.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/slimer8-30-08.jpg

[lukinrats]

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/spongodes8-30-08.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/vesuvius18-30-08.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/vesuvius28-30-08.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x10/lukinrats/yellowporites8-30-08.jpg