new fish look sick

[scrmom]

I have had sw tank for 2 years now. I haven't purchased any fish since the first 4 I got when I set up the tank. Yesterday I purchased a foxface and scissortail goby. I have them in a 10g qt. The qt consists of a hoh filter and I had that on the main tank x 1 week, a heater, ph, and pvc pipe. Both fish were looking fine. I tested the water this morning and the level is 5 for ammonia everything else negative. salinity was 1.30. so I immediately did 25% water change half ro/di freshwater and the other half from main tank. The salinity is down 1.25. The fish are staying together in the lower bottom of tank. what else could be wrong? temp is 78degrees.

[LOTUS50GOD]

you should have brought the salinity down gradually...
Going from 1.030 to 1.025 probably shocked your fish.

What is your ammonia testing at now?

[Will520]

How big is the foxface? if it's too big for a 10g it might be stressing itself out. Did you by them from the same guy? It's possible that they may have been caught using harmful chemicals. The ammonia is a little high but 5 probably wouldn't be enough to irritate much in a short period of time. Personally, i'd do water changes often until your parameters get in check. and redo the ammonia test

[Michael]

salinity was reduced too quickly, also could be shock and oxygen problems, its difficult to be sure, you are experienced with 2 years in the hobby, however only 44 posts, id suggest altering your signature so you can give more information when on the odd occasion you ask a question, it will help, nice to have you here on reef central, its good to have experienced reefers here, welcome

[Anemonebuff]

If you have ammonia in the tank then they are in jeopardy. Ammonia gets converted to nitrite, then to nitrate, by the bacteria. Nitrite is also toxic. Either add some ammolock or put the fish into the main tank. With those fish in an uncycled tank they will surely get ill and die.

[Michael]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13239706#post13239706 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anemonebuff
If you have ammonia in the tank then they are in jeopardy. Ammonia gets converted to nitrite, then to nitrate, by the bacteria. Nitrite is also toxic. Either add some ammolock or put the fish into the main tank. With those fish in an uncycled tank they will surely get ill and die.

nitrite is not toxic in the marine aquarium, although i agree ammonia is, i would not suggest adding chemicals either at this stage:)

[Anemonebuff]

Nitrite is toxic to fish, Nitrate is not(although some argue that at high levels it is).

[Michael]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13239780#post13239780 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anemonebuff
Nitrite is toxic to fish, Nitrate is not(although some argue that at high levels it is).

well its debateable then, heres randys views on it

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

[Amazon4]

I add Seachem's Stability to my QT. It helps with the biological filtration. It may help to jump start yours.

I agree that the ammonia is bad, even a small amount. It can get out of control quickly.

Also, you may want to add an airstone. I did and it helped stablize my PH (which I don't think you mentioned).

They may be a little "shocked" by the drop in salinity. But I believe they can handle that. Going up 0.005 would have been a big problem.

How big is the foxface? A 10g may be too small and complicating matters.

[Anemonebuff]

Read the article in full and you will see that Randy thinks, according to the data, that marine organisms can tollerate higher concentrations of nitrite, not that nitrite is non toxic to marine organisms.

Quote from the article:

"Aquarists obviously can decide for themselves, based on the data provided above, what level of nitrite to allow in a reef aquarium, or alternatively, at what level to take some action to reduce it (e.g., a water change). Fortunately, nitrite levels in reef aquaria are almost always far lower than would cause concern from a toxicity perspective. While a new aquarium's nitrite levels might reach up toward 10 ppm or more, such an aquarium should not yet contain sensitive organisms. Once the nitrite is below 1 ppm, there is little reason to be concerned.

From my perspective, nitrite and the nitrogen cycle may be interesting phenomena to monitor during a reef aquarium's initial set up, but nitrite does not warrant routine testing."

[Michael]

totally agree 10 gallons is too small, however if just for quarenteen then ok if very temporary, how big is the fox face?is it a junior or fully grown, if fully grown then the guys have avery good point about the size of the QT

[Anemonebuff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13239363#post13239363 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scrmom
I have had sw tank for 2 years now. I haven't purchased any fish since the first 4 I got when I set up the tank. Yesterday I purchased a foxface and scissortail goby. I have them in a 10g qt. The qt consists of a hoh filter and I had that on the main tank x 1 week, a heater, ph, and pvc pipe. Both fish were looking fine. I tested the water this morning and the level is 5 for ammonia everything else negative. salinity was 1.30. so I immediately did 25% water change half ro/di freshwater and the other half from main tank. The salinity is down 1.25. The fish are staying together in the lower bottom of tank. what else could be wrong? temp is 78degrees.

5ppm ammonia will kill your fishes....end of story.

Nitrite above 1ppm may also make matters worse.

[Michael]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13239939#post13239939 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anemonebuff
Read the article in full and you will see that Randy thinks, according to the data, that marine organisms can tollerate higher concentrations of nitrite, not that nitrite is non toxic to marine organisms.

Quote from the article:

"Aquarists obviously can decide for themselves, based on the data provided above, what level of nitrite to allow in a reef aquarium, or alternatively, at what level to take some action to reduce it (e.g., a water change). Fortunately, nitrite levels in reef aquaria are almost always far lower than would cause concern from a toxicity perspective. While a new aquarium's nitrite levels might reach up toward 10 ppm or more, such an aquarium should not yet contain sensitive organisms. Once the nitrite is below 1 ppm, there is little reason to be concerned.

From my perspective, nitrite and the nitrogen cycle may be interesting phenomena to monitor during a reef aquarium's initial set up, but nitrite does not warrant routine testing."



i have of course read it and seen him talk about it many many times, he even suggests just testing for it for fun, however anemonebuff i am not trying to suggest your wrong, only to suggest its not very toxic and perhaps i worded it wrong the first time, thanks for comming back, id still say its nothing to worry about in this case though, its leathel in fresh water but nowhere near as bad in salt water, so i just dont think its very toxic, i suppose it depends on interpretation really and seeing other posts on it, its interesting at set up cycling stage but not a worry usually and not as bad as most think, still this is what debate is all about, i will find some more on it for you, but thanks for giving me and scrmom your views on nitrite

:)

[Anemonebuff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13240025#post13240025 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Michael
i have of course read it and seen him talk about it many many times, he even suggests just testing for it for fun, however anemonebuff i am not trying to suggest your wrong, only to suggest its not very toxic and perhaps i worded it wrong the first time, thanks for comming back, id still say its nothing to worry about in this case though, its leathel in fresh water but nowhere near as bad in salt water, so i just dont think its very toxic, i suppose it depends on interpretation really and seeing other posts on it, its interesting at set up cycling stage but not a worry usually and not as bad as most think, still this is what debate is all about, i will find some more on it for you, but thanks for giving me and scrmom your views on nitrite

:)

The underlting problem in this thread is that this poster has an uncycled QT tank.
The ammonia is too high and high nitrite will follow, and like the quote from Randy states,"While a new aquarium's nitrite levels might reach up toward 10 ppm or more, such an aquarium should not yet contain sensitive organisms. Once the nitrite is below 1 ppm, there is little reason to be concerned."

I consider the posters fish sensitive organisms.

[Michael]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13240062#post13240062 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anemonebuff
The underlting problem in this thread is that this poster has an uncycled QT tank.
The ammonia is too high and high nitrite will follow, and like the quote from Randy states,"While a new aquarium's nitrite levels might reach up toward 10 ppm or more, such an aquarium should not yet contain sensitive organisms. Once the nitrite is below 1 ppm, there is little reason to be concerned."

I consider the posters fish sensitive organisms.

yep your right, i misread the original post, i thought he had put existing established water from a 2 year old tank, into a new tank and nothing else, if he is actually cycling which is probable then yes i agree about the nitrite at the potential levels they could rise to, my interpertration would be at levels up to 1 which is high but unlikely at normal conditions it would not be a worry, although as stated if cycling then i would not advise fish either

[Anemonebuff]

The article is very interesting and thanks for the link. I was not looking for a flame, I was just trying to relate it to this individual post, sorry for not clarifying that sooner.

This poster should either return his fish or just add them to the main tank and keep his fingers crossed.

[scrmom]

I set up the qt based on what I have read from books and internet. Which state to put sponge filter in main for 1-2 weeks and then place in qt. This to prevent having to do a cycling process. From there you are supposed to pwc daily. I want to do everything right. I was afraid to put them in main tank because I don't want to expose my other fish to any illness these fish might have. The foxface is medium size.

[Anemonebuff]

Your heart was in the right place and you followed the directions, however a week or two on the main tank is not enough, a month would have been better, plus some food should have been added to the QT to increase the bacteria in the filter. Two fish like yours in a 10 gallon is now a heavy bioload and the filter cannot keep up.

I suggest that you either return the fish until the QT is running good and strong. Or add the fish to the main tank and hope for the best.

[DiverD]

I would think putting those guys in the main tank is risky??

If it were me, and I am not the best here of course. I would try moving some wet live rock from an established tank over slowly and do consistent small water changes and add a hang on skimmer like a prizm, seaclone or comparable.

Can you guys chime in and tell me if I'm off base -- especially with the live rock thing?

It would seem we need to get the ammonia down immediately.

[paraletho]

scrmom I read that your main tank has been up and running for 2 years and I feel that your QT tank is set up maybe not perfectly but probably adequate. A 10 may be small for the foxface but Id give it a try. If you dont mind sacrificing a small or medium rock from your display tank and transfer it ro the QT it would help. Pull it if your fish are sick and you have to treat but do not place it back in the display.

[DiverD]

I might plan on keeping some rock in that tank man.