whats the shelf life on live sand bags?

[atrox]

I came across a good deal on these bags 2 10lb bags and one 20lb bag all for free. The expiration date is jul 2007. I was wondering the length of time this can sit before I use it. Ive got it indoors so its climate controlled. Each bag still has water in it, and they havnt turned green. I figure even if the bacteria dies I can still use it and seed it later. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

http://www.naturesocean.com/live_sand.htm

[rogergolf66]

I think there is a date on them. if not then I would say as long as it is still wet you are ok. even if it is died. you can still use it you will just have to resead it with a few cups of live sand from you LFS or another local reefer.

Roger

[idareefer]

why buy live sand? waste of $$ for obvious reasons

[atrox]

It was free, besides since when did live sand become a waste of money?

[White_Ranger]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13264852#post13264852 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by idareefer
why buy live sand? waste of $$ for obvious reasons

I didn't really get what you're saying, are you saying Live sand is not a good thing to use or get it free from the beach so why buy it ?

[abulgin]

No, he's saying . . . do you really think that sand that's been sitting in a bag is "live"? If you do, then I have a bridge you can buy . . .

[IslandCrow]

It's pretty common opinion that the bagged "live" sand doesn't have many of the live things you're generally looking for in live sand. Because of this, most of the experienced people in the hobby consider it a waste of money. That said, since you got yours for free, it can hardly be a waste of money. I'd use it. I think worse case is what Roger already pointed out.

[atrox]

I always get a kick out of how opinions must be the truth. this is my favorite.

1. If it dosnt cost a lot its crap, buy that one cause its from Europe and it comes with a free T-shirt.

This thread had nothing to do with which is better. I realize that sand from an established/mature tank will have more organisms than packaged sand that has sit for months on a shelf. Abulgin what kind of bridge you got. I'm looking for a medium to large suspension.

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13265724#post13265724 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by atrox
I always get a kick out of how opinions must be the truth. this is my favorite.

1. If it dosnt cost a lot its crap, buy that one cause its from Europe and it comes with a free T-shirt.

This thread had nothing to do with which is better. I realize that sand from an established/mature tank will have more organisms than packaged sand that has sit for months on a shelf. Abulgin what kind of bridge you got. I'm looking for a medium to large suspension.

Relax Chief, I didn't say you got a bad deal--I never punch a gift horse in the mouth. The only thing I did was comment on someone else's comment about "live sand" in a bag. There's no such thing. Sand is sand--if you got a bunch of aragonite for free, good score.

[atrox]

:beer: cheers mate no harm no foul.

[Kellie in CA]

I'd still use it, but since it expired a year ago I would rinse it off before putting it in my tank.

[Saltz Creep]

Commercial live sand like Arag-alive is only alive with bacteria.

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13266214#post13266214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Saltz Creep
Commercial live sand like Arag-alive is only alive with bacteria.

Please don't take offense, but do you really believe that bacteria remains alive after being sealed in a bag, shipped in a hot truck and stored on a shelf for weeks? This is all BS--these companies, and many others that sell dubious products, are ripping hobbyists off by claiming the impossible.

Save your money, buy dry aragonite, and get a cup of established substrate from a friend (or better, ask your LFS if you can scrape the bottom of their live rock tubs).

[ILoveReefer]

I tend to agree with abulgin on this one. I would recommend rinsing the bagged "live sand" before using, it may contain alot of die off.

[Lawnmower Blenn]

why do thay call it live sand ? if its not live mabey it was when thay put it in bag

[abulgin]

Because they, like many other vendors in this hobby, want to make money off of you by convincing you you're getting something "special", when you're actually getting junk. If you think about what I said above--bacteria in a sealed bag, stored in all kinds of temperature, sitting on a shelf for weeks/months--I think you should agree that a claim that there is actually live bacteria in the bag when you dump it in your tank is just a load of crap.

[Saltz Creep]

I've opened plenty of these bags and never smelled any dieoff and I have a keen sense of smell.

[abulgin]

Ha, that's because there's nothing in there that will/can die . . .

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13266785#post13266785 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
Ha, that's because there's nothing in there that will/can die . . .

In posts re: these products, Anthony Calfo has referred to them as "absolutely ridiculous products"

[silverking]

abulgin

You seem pretty sure of the statements you have made. what tests have you done to back these up....just curious

[abulgin]

Tests? I tested the bacteria with the PU-36 Explosive Space Modulator.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or maybe it does . . . ) to figure this out. I have enough of a science education, been in this hobby long enough, read enough books, posts and opinions, talked to enough people in the industry . . . to get an understanding of what does and doesn't work in this hobby . . . and to apply common sense to things:

bacteria in a bag + no food + no oxygen (the bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate is aerobic, not anaerobic) + weeks or months of storage = dead bacteria.

[shuguley]

abulgin,

you are assuming that bacteria needs oxygen, sunlight, and nice temparture to survive. Some bacteria, called facultative aerobes can grow with or without oxygen. In the absence of oxygen, they grow by fermentation. And, the fact is, many forms of bacteria can survive extremely harsh environments without sunlight or oxygen at all. You can even freeze some bactieria without killing it.
And, In fact, oxygen is actually toxic to some forms of bacteria. As far as no food being in the bag, that isn't true either, the product from one form of bacteria can actually feed another bacteria


You seem to have really convinced yourself that bacteria cannot survive a few months in a bag with sand and water, but that is not true, bacteria can survive much more harsh environments than that.

[abulgin]

Do you know whether Caribsea adds facultative bacteria to its live sand? Do you know how much and whether it's enough to cycle a tank as the manufacturer claims? If so, do you know how long it can live in a bag (with or without food) and at varying temps? If not, or if it has a short life under such conditions, then what good is it?

The above is simply my opinion, based not on what a bag says but on what I've read. Search wetwebmedia.com about this product and read the thoughts of the people who spend day in and day out in this hobby. You'll find that the vast majority of posts state the opinion that the product is basically worthless for the reasons I stated--by the time you get the bag, whatever bacteria that was there--without oxygen, without any food source, stored in fluctuating temperatures for long periods of time--is mostly dead bacteria.

You're free to disagree, I am no biologist. If you have facts or literature/statements from respected hobbyists/persons in the industry that address this product and counter the opinions/statements I've passed on from my reading, post them and I'll consider them/stand corrected.

With all that said, CaribSea's aragonite substrate is a fine product, I use it myself. I'm just not convinced based on everything I've read that you actually get something live--or at least enough of something live--to warrant the extra price you pay for "live sand".

[atrox]

Free sand is free sand is free sand.

[abulgin]

I agree--I would never pass up free sand, especially a high quality product like CaribSea's aragonite.

[atrox]

With all that said, wouldnt whatever is dead still help to get a new tank going. Id rather add this stuff in a tank than a cocktail shrimp. I never bought into the instant cycle claim on any product kinda like an infomercial for "extends" to increase that special male part.

[Lawnmower Blenn]

do you need to do any thing to the sand before you add it to your tank ?.

[abulgin]

I would think that it's the same as adding a bioload to your tank to get it cycled. CaribSea claims that independent tests show that a tank cycles faster than regular methids. My guess is because this adds instant bioload.

I would think rinsing would remove anything good that remeains, but I have no idea. I always rinse sand, but rinsing "live" sand seems counter-intuitive to me.

[atrox]

Yeah rinsing def. sounds like you would be defeating the whole purpose.

[shuguley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13269108#post13269108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
Do you know whether Caribsea adds facultative bacteria to its live sand? Do you know how much and whether it's enough to cycle a tank as the manufacturer claims? If so, do you know how long it can live in a bag (with or without food) and at varying temps? If not, or if it has a short life under such conditions, then what good is it?

The above is simply my opinion, based not on what a bag says but on what I've read. Search wetwebmedia.com about this product and read the thoughts of the people who spend day in and day out in this hobby. You'll find that the vast majority of posts state the opinion that the product is basically worthless for the reasons I stated--by the time you get the bag, whatever bacteria that was there--without oxygen, without any food source, stored in fluctuating temperatures for long periods of time--is mostly dead bacteria.

You're free to disagree, I am no biologist. If you have facts or literature/statements from respected hobbyists/persons in the industry that address this product and counter the opinions/statements I've passed on from my reading, post them and I'll consider them/stand corrected.

With all that said, CaribSea's aragonite substrate is a fine product, I use it myself. I'm just not convinced based on everything I've read that you actually get something live--or at least enough of something live--to warrant the extra price you pay for "live sand".

That's just the point I was trying to make, you don't know and I don't know, yet you stated with a degree of certainty that there is no possible way these bags contain "Live sand" maybe all the bacteria is dead when you get the bag, maybe it isn't dead... we don't know and we won't know until somebody can perform some kind of lab study. I just don't agree with your certainty that the sand cannot possibly alive.. you said....

"bacteria in a bag + no food + no oxygen + weeks or months of storage = dead bacteria."

That statement above just simply is not true, that's all I was trying to point out, bacteria can survive much more harsh environments than this, so you cannot simply assume from "common sense" that there is no live bacteria in the bags of live sand. I'm not saying there is live bacteria, but you cannot safely say there isn't live sand either. You cannot always trust "common sense" common sense once told everyone on earth that the world was flat.

[abulgin]

Please read my statements, and please read for yourself about these products. You've taken my comments out of context--made them general rather than specific.

You're right--I don't know what's in the bag, but I do know what the people that live this hobby/industry think. You can spout off all day about the different types of bacteria, but I tend to believe a little more in the hobbyists/scientists who write popular books/websites.

[atrox]

Just a thought but of all the catastrophic climate events meteor hits inthese creatures are hardy enough and well sheltered enough that as long as enough gases and solvent pass through their habitat that they could survive for quite a while longer than life on the surface. "quote- A huge meteor, between 12 and 30 miles in diameter, smashed into the Earth 3.5 billion years ago with the energy of 1 billion atomic bombs, vaporizing the surface where it struck and creating a tsunami more than half a mile high that raced around the world at 500 miles per hour.

This cataclysm is the earliest known meteor strike to hit the Earth, and one of at least four that have been identified in a geologically brief 300-million-year period. ---end quote"(kate melville)
There was almost certainly life at this time. Primitive, bacterial life, and if the impacts were made by a meteor 20 miles in diameter, they would have killed everything on the surface of the Earth," he said. First a hot steam of molten rock and water would have withered most life, then the massively destructive tsunamis would have destroyed even more. After that, years of incredibly cold winters, caused by particles in the atmosphere blocking out the sun, would have conspired to kill nearly everything else.

"Anything that survived would have been in deep rocks or below the surface of the Earth," he said.

Byerly first came upon evidence of these impacts by chance in 1984 while he was studying ancient volcanism in Australia and South Africa. He published his first paper on them in 1986. This year alone he and his team will have four papers published on the subject. It is now generally accepted that the inner solar system was battered twice by massive meteor impacts of mysterious origin.

I figure if they can survive this they can stand to live in the bags at the LFS for a little while.

[shuguley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13273079#post13273079 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by atrox
Just a thought but of all the catastrophic climate events meteor hits inthese creatures are hardy enough and well sheltered enough that as long as enough gases and solvent pass through their habitat that they could survive for quite a while longer than life on the surface. "quote- A huge meteor, between 12 and 30 miles in diameter, smashed into the Earth 3.5 billion years ago with the energy of 1 billion atomic bombs, vaporizing the surface where it struck and creating a tsunami more than half a mile high that raced around the world at 500 miles per hour.

This cataclysm is the earliest known meteor strike to hit the Earth, and one of at least four that have been identified in a geologically brief 300-million-year period. ---end quote"(kate melville)
There was almost certainly life at this time. Primitive, bacterial life, and if the impacts were made by a meteor 20 miles in diameter, they would have killed everything on the surface of the Earth," he said. First a hot steam of molten rock and water would have withered most life, then the massively destructive tsunamis would have destroyed even more. After that, years of incredibly cold winters, caused by particles in the atmosphere blocking out the sun, would have conspired to kill nearly everything else.

"Anything that survived would have been in deep rocks or below the surface of the Earth," he said.

Byerly first came upon evidence of these impacts by chance in 1984 while he was studying ancient volcanism in Australia and South Africa. He published his first paper on them in 1986. This year alone he and his team will have four papers published on the subject. It is now generally accepted that the inner solar system was battered twice by massive meteor impacts of mysterious origin.

I figure if they can survive this they can stand to live in the bags at the LFS for a little while.

+1

Some people just don't give bacteria enough credit for the type of environment it can live in.

[parkpark]

my theory is that the type of bacteria thriving in the "live" bag of sand isn't the type we want in our tanks

[atrox]

:D all this over some free sand. Id like to hear what SK8r has to say on the subject.

[atrox]

never got a response from SK8r

[meco65]

Put it under a microscope and see what you see.

[tangzzz]

All abulgin meant was that he didn't feel the bagged live sand was not worth the extra $15/$20 a bag. One is able to get almost twice the amount of dry sand for the same price as the "live sand." He's just trying to save reefers money and not bashing anyone for it. Free sand is the best!

[DirtyDeeds]

Free sand ftw

[lordofthereef]

never got a response from SK8r

What? You brought back a year and a half old thread to say someone didn't respond that long ago?

[daniel89]

I bought live sand from a company and when you purchase it they bagg it that morning and ship it to you so i would say if you did it that way you are getting something alive lol

[Wannabe29]

What? You brought back a year and a half old thread to say someone didn't respond that long ago?

Ha! I was about to put in a serious response to this thread until I saw this......weird.........

[dossfj]

Wow, heated thread for a simple question. To answer the original question there is probably a little die off sealed in the bag so rinse it off, and put it in a QT tank for 36 hours, no ammonia in the water then its good to dump in your tank.

[one4gatr]

Well FWIW... I just bought a bag of Caribe to setup my daughters 12g Aquapod. The NEW bags now have a "best by date" on them now. The bag she bought had a shelf life until 4/11. So either they are responding to all of us arguing about whether or not there is a bacteria shelf life or its just slick marketing. I would guess its pretty legit because I wouldnt have bought the bag if it were "out of date". Anyway to each his/her own... just thought I would share.

[sdc19982002]

Tests? I tested the bacteria with the PU-36 Explosive Space Modulator.




Just to correct you. It's the pu-46 that does microscopic explosive space modulation. :)