I need your help, ready to quit.

[mixed_reefer]

I dont ask for alot of help around here, maybe i should have been doing so all along?

I have an alge problem that has me at wits end. My rocks are covered in one form or another of alge to the point where i dont even see rocks anymore. I have calupera of every variety that poped outta nowhere, Red whispy slimy alge, red wire brush type alge, poofy green slime balls, halmedia, you name it.
Im about to run a hose down the drain and make some fish store happy with a very nice free collection of sps corals. Im in the sps forum with this because the tank is 99% sps and has been that way for over a year AND because i know sps'ers are serious when it comes to their tanks, most of us live and breath reef.

So here goes ill give as much info as i can think of and all comments are welcome. I can take constructive criticism and i dont think i know it all, or even close. Please help me

System:
30g breeder drains into a 55 sump with a 20g fuge, the fuge pumps back into the sump and the return is in the sump for the display. the 30 is wall to wall SPS with minimal rock(20lbs) and is BB, the sump is stacked with rock to the surface almost, there is a small dsb that is about a quarter of the sump and 6 inches deep, the rest of the sump has substrate mix some sand some crushed coral. The fuge is BB with rock to the surface nearly as well.

I run 2 skimmers on this system, a modded coralife super skimmer 65 (mesh mod, and i added a drain line so the cup never fills) and a seaclown 100. I run phosar hc at full capacity, 100gr in my tlf reactor. I used to grow chaeto but it slimed over and i removed it about 2 months ago My nitrates still test 0 on a brand new api kit and the last time i had phos checked i was told it was 0, wich was a long time ago before i added a phos reactor.

My fish stock is kinda heavy IMO
I have a pair of occ clowns and 2 chromis in the display. In the sump i have a dwarf fuzzy lion adult, an adult tomato clown, blue head wrasse and a yellow tang that is about 3 inches. In the fuge i have a gold stripe maroon clown and a saddle blenny. I have cut my feedings down and it seems the alge got worse when i did.

I use homemade 2 part and drip mrs wages 24/7 lights are on for about 7 hours on the display and they are 8 months old now 2x 175w Aqualine 10k. The sump and fuge are reverse lit of the display.
My corals started to brown about a month ago and it seems the alge picked up pace right along with it, yet i get 0 trates? I rip alge from the display weekly and it slows it down but lately that slowdown has even been reduced. I try to do water changes once every few weeks and i do 25g changes on the system with coralife salt made with RO/DI water (dual di).

Alk 10 (sup with baked soda)
cal 420-450 (sup with calcium chloride)
Mag 1300 (sup with epsom and mag flake)
I have held these similar parameters for some time

My corals all seem to do well, everything grows and it used to look pretty decent imo but now things look alot browner to me.
Is it possible to have a high nutrient system and still get 0 on trate readings and have low phos? I thought getting those numbers down is what made a LNS.

I cant take it anymore i cant stand looking at something i have put so much time and effort into and seeing a mess of alge. this post is long enough already so if i missed something just ask. I will take some pics for a visual and get them posted.

[Letmegrow]

What is the TDS of your RO water ?

[mixed_reefer]

I get steady 0, its a 9 stage unit i fashioned from 2 filterguys ocean reef 4 units. Dual di, color changing resins.

[mixed_reefer]

Some pics:

This is the crop i pulled out just now

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2623.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2624.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2625.jpg

Poofy slimy green alge ball
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2620.jpg

[mixed_reefer]

this is what my rock looks like

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2626.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2627.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2630.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2631.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2632.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2641.jpg

[mixed_reefer]

poofy green alge ball still in tact hanging on the tank wall
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2635.jpg

Poor clam being over run
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2634.jpg

these powerheads were cleaned 2 weeks ago in bleach then vinegar
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2639.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2637.jpg

[mixed_reefer]

this is me in the mids of pulling a green slime alge ball
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2643.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2644.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/mixed_reefer/100_2645.jpg




I also get hair alge in the fuge and some kind of leafy weak tanish alge grows well in my sump

[Letmegrow]

Ah, barebottom.
You might be lacking detritavors.

Have you hit the tank with interceptr recently or ever ?

Most of the detritus I see should be blowing away, do you have decent water movement ?

Also I would toss the 8 month old bulbs.
Especially since they are 10K, 10ks shift to 5600K when they start to go out. Whereas a 20k goes to 12k.
(Not exact measurements ofcoarse but you get the idea)
So with your red/yellow bulbs you are giving the algae what it needs.

[mixed_reefer]

I had a feeling that the bulbs might be playing a role in this...
Yes i have hit it with interceptor ohh about a year ago... ive yet to see pods again. I absolutely refuse to add anything to the system, i am super scared of pests. With ppl thinking AEFW is commonplace these days, its just a gamble im not willing to take. I am even scared to add chaeto, how do i know what lurks in the sellers tank, ya know.

My water movement is ok i got 6x maxi 1200s on a wavemaker. To be honest im thinking about adding more flow because the coral growth is hampering it in a few areas.

[Letmegrow]

Also, throw that chaeto back in, if you have to throw a power head in there to tumble it so it doesn't slime over.

You have to out compete the algae you dont want.

I would retest your ALK with a different kit.
Your coraline should be growing well with those params and killing the other algae.
You might need to respore your tank with a "new to you" piece of live rock.

The more I reread, you don't have enough LR and the DSB in such a small space is doing nothing. There is too many fish.

All this macro algae growing is probly keeping your system alive.

The key to BB systems is VERY low nutrients.

[mixed_reefer]

How embarrassing... I had hoped my first posted pics of my system would wow you guys... Now im just an alge farmer.

[Nanook]

What is your phosphate on a reliable kit or Hanna meter? I suspect it is sky high. What are your nitrates?

What is your feeding regimen, skimmer, fuge???

[Nanook]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13270763#post13270763 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
How embarrassing... I had hoped my first posted pics of my system would wow you guys... Now im just an alge farmer.

We all are at some point, part of the deal. I would get a good reading on phosphates and nitrates. I have a hanna meter and lamotte nitrate kit if you live close by? Perhaps GFO, carbon and water changes are in order. Lighting is a real possible cause too depending on the bulbs.

[Letmegrow]

The maxi jets are not doing you any favors.
If you mod even just ONE of the maxi jets you are doing alot more GPH in the flow pattern you need.

Also, 6 maxijets add a ton of heat. You could probly lower your tanks temp by 9 degrees by taking them out.

I would reconsider all of them and go to the high flow mods.

You never mentioned salinity or temp.

ive yet to see pods again.
I absolutely refuse to add anything to the system
This is where the problem is. You need to do what you are scared of.

Learn what corals AEFW infect.
Learn the signs of AEFW on corals.

You wont get AEFW or other pest from Chaeto. Trust me.
If you are really paranoid, get some chaeto from some who doesn't have sps, should be that simple.

[mixed_reefer]

Alk has been tested with many kits i have 3 my neighbor has 2 and ive had my buddy kraash come over to verify with his, the alk is 10.

I do have some chaeto , nothing like the wad i once grew but it will get there. I do have powerheads in the sump and fuge to keep things moving. I have alot of rock, i have to respectfully disagree with that statement. I DO NOT have near the sand bed i need, i agree 100% with you there. The fish are going, possibly even today.

I see you also mentioned Low Nutrients. What exactly do we mean when we say nutrients? Phos? Trate? or what.. I see salts claiming they have added more vitamins and such, would those be considered nutrients?

[Letmegrow]

Nook, I don't think his phosphate is going to be really high.
His corals would look really poop brown if he did, they have corals.

The algae tells me he has no detritavores. No worms or pods what so ever.

But he does have a ton of fish, and has to feed them so it will be there.

phosar hc
I never heard of this brand, I would consider switching.

[mixed_reefer]

.026 and 79-82

[Letmegrow]

Low nutrients = no fish food or phyto.

Especially frozen foods of any sort.

[Letmegrow]

+ Red spectrum light is a nutrient.

[mixed_reefer]

I sent a sample to a friend a long time back and he tested it with his photometer and he claimed 0 phos this was before i started running gfo, rather aggressively i might add. Ill be honest, i cant afford a photometer right now thats why im not testing it like i should. I bought the highest quality gfo i could get my hands on and im running it full bore.

Phosar and Phosar HC are considered to be high quality GFO as far as everything ive read and been told.

I need detrivores but where can i get them without taking a chance of introducing SPS pest?

[Nanook]

phosar HC is a premium grade. His corals are kind of browned out to my eye.

[mixed_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13270771#post13270771 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nanook
We all are at some point, part of the deal. I would get a good reading on phosphates and nitrates. I have a hanna meter and lamotte nitrate kit if you live close by? Perhaps GFO, carbon and water changes are in order. Lighting is a real possible cause too depending on the bulbs.

Nook,
I really appreciate the offer and i may very well take you up on it. Will you be at the slash swap on the 27th?

[Nanook]

You can add detritivores from Inland Aquatics and Indopacific Seafarms for starters. They have a great selection of the little stuff, plus plenty of quality snails like Trochus Grazers and Strombus Grazers, etc, etc.

I would be willing to bet that your flow and water quality are to blame. Bulbs are a possibility too, but I would first rule out water quality as it is the easiest and cheapest to fix.

[mixed_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13270871#post13270871 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nanook
phosar HC is a premium grade. His corals are kind of browned out to my eye.

Your eyes arent playing tricks on ya bud, poop brown is what they are. They used to be colorfull...

I had been feeding alot of frozen up untill 2 weeks ago.

Im going to mix up a water change and extract some fish, start there. Next time i get paid ill order new bulbs, im thinking xm 20k, these ab basically burn the crap outta everything, lotsa UV.

[Nanook]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13270880#post13270880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
Nook,
I really appreciate the offer and i may very well take you up on it. Will you be at the slash swap on the 27th?

I will not be due to work but I can meet you at a LFS to test these whenever you would like.

[Letmegrow]

None of the MH bulbs put out UV except for double ended bulbs.
That is what the UV filtering glass sheilds are for.

On a single ended bulb, the actual glass itself is the UV sheild.


I would go to a buddies house and gank some really nice purple LR and add it to your tank.

[mixed_reefer]

I am going to do everything i can to correct it and all advice is very appreciated. I will keep this updated as things progress and i really do appreciate everyones willingness to help me out.

Here is what im going to do over the next few days

1 a 25% water change

2 extract fish

3 feed remaining fish less

4 get a sand bad in both the fuge and the sump

5 change my GFO, even tho it should still be good

6 change bulbs

7 work on detrivores and that piece of LR



Any other suggestions?

[Zuluman100]

I'd do one at a time, wait two weeks or more before adding the next. I'd add sand at the end.

[mixed_reefer]

I am leaning twards poor water quality as well, as much as i hate to think it or admit it for that matter. I have one spot where i bounce a maxi off of a rock, that spot gets a blackish color hair type of alge right where the flow hits it. So if were simply a flow issue or even a lighting issue singly this would not be happening.

What do we mean besides parameters when we say water quality?

What are some ways to improve my water quality overall, besides the obvious that i test for?

[mixed_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13271629#post13271629 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zuluman100
I'd do one at a time, wait two weeks or more before adding the next. I'd add sand at the end.

Good points and the sand at the end makes a load of sense. Thank You.

[Aqua-World PITT]

Do you have any hermit crabs or snails in there? I know from experience they help out a lot. I couldn't see any in the pics you posted.
I would put:
10 Hermits
8 Mexican Turbos (take 3-4 out when they have done their job.)

I had a tank that looked like yours. It was a 150 gallon, all params were good like yours. So i got 20 Mexican turbos and after 2 days all the algae was gone. All that was left was the poop from the snails. I mean there was mounds of it, i simply siphoned it out. After that i took 12 of the snails out. You have to know though the Mexican turbos are so big that they can knock over coral.

P.S. Did you replenish?put back in your inverts after the interceptor?

P.S.S. I know not having snails didn't really cause the problem. At least i don't think. But the cleaning crew will sure help.

Just my 2 cents and something to think about.

[schroder_reef]

I had a similar issue with a tank I got. First I added a cleaning crew. 10 snails, 10 crabs, 1 emerald crab (great investment btw) added a foxface rabbit ( best cleaner hands down) to eat macro and some others, and blenny for hair. 10% consistant water change weekly. Tank was mostly spotless except for hard algaes.

[60Cubed]

One really good way to remove phosphates is dripping Kalkwater. The phosphates bond to the kalk molecule and allow the skimmer to remove them. It really works. I would start that ASAP. You will see a difference very fast. Also, algae grows better under crappy bulbs. If your bulbs are old, change them and it will help. I haven't read any where on this thread where you state you use kalk water. It will help I guarantee it.

[mixed_reefer]

60,
I been dripping kalk for years. 24/7 Its in the first post.

I did put my hermits back in after interceptor, but i do have a fairly light cleaning crew as we speak.

[Rakie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13273001#post13273001 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
60,
I been dripping kalk for years. 24/7 Its in the first post.

I did put my hermits back in after interceptor, but i do have a fairly light cleaning crew as we speak.

To kill off the algae fast, add some Turbo snails, take a few hours off the light cycle, get rid of more then 2 of those fish, feed less. Do more frequent water changes (I don't remember how often you said you did water changes, or how much you do in a percentage)

[mixed_reefer]

I plan to remove the lion, tomato clown, blue head wrasse and the saddleback blenny. That would leave me with 2 occ clowns 2 green chromis a yellow tang and a maroon clown, system is about 100 gallons total. How does that sound?

I do 25g at a change Some times once a week sometimes once a month, it just depends.

[Rakie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13273262#post13273262 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer


I do 25g at a change Some times once a week sometimes once a month, it just depends. [/B]

That is a no no... make a water change happen every week. If you let it go a month you could have a big problem.

Id say this is not your only problem, but IMHO it's being overlooked.

Do a WC once a week.

[dots]

I would suggest the following stragegy to get this under control.

1. Only RODI water w/ quality salt. Only add what you need after.

2. Get a good P04 kit, if not a Hanna meter.

2. 30% WC every two weeks.

3. Feed every other day sparingly (I have never seen an established fish starve to death.)

4. Feed frozen foods only, rinse them prior to feeding, and feed as little types as possible to narrow down/limit P04 sources. (I suggest PE Mysis, cylcopeeze, along with some Rotifers only.

5. Up your cleanup crew, a smaller diversified one would be better than just bunches and bunches of turbos. Add snails, some more snail frendly hermits, mythrax, urchin....etc.

6. As mentioned GFO, GFO, GFO (Buy in bulk as your going to need a lot, changed regularly....most likely weekly......in a reactor if not two........be warned it will be expensive, but that is the way the game is.)

7. Turn off your lights for three days when you start this new WC schedule, it will kill off a big deal of it. Do this prior to your first big WC and after you have added your clean up crew.

8. Limit your lighting schedule after that.

9. Take a hard look at your flow, blow off your rock daily with a turkey baster, check your params, manually remove it as you have been.

You are accumulating nutrients either by adding them in too fast or not getting them out fast enough, decrease the first while increasing the latter, and you will create an algae limiting enviroment. Use the cleanup crew for what is left.

Overall, it looks like a husbandry issue to me and you need to be more attentive and increase your maintenance.

After you have cleaned up the tank with these "Gorilla Tactics", you may either continue or relax them until you find a balance that gives you the greatest results.

[dots]

I run a BB tank, at this point a BB tank will actually help you. Adding sand right now will only add to your problems I believe. It will slow your attempts to sterilize your tank. It takes many months to establish a functional working DSB, if that is the reason for adding it.

I do have a small remote DSB, but it is to do the exact opposite you want to acheive currently, which is to collect/process and release some nutrients back into my system to "buffer/stablize" the nutients as I was having problems with it being to sterile, then overfeeding and it reacting to quickly resulting in either browning or fading.

You want to sterilize your tank, I feel adding sand at this time will only hamper this and increase the time to do so.

In the end, if you find you are having problems with rapid fading and browning, I would suggest a small remote one then but that is not the object now.

DSB take months to be fully productive and will not help you in the imediate.

[Rakie]

DOTS

5. Up your cleanup crew, a smaller diversified one would be better than just bunches and bunches of turbos. Add snails, some more snail frendly hermits, mythrax, urchin....etc.


We emphasized specifically Turbos but yes, thats a VERY good point, we neglected to mention other types of CUC critters.

[dots]

I wasn't specifically commenting towards your original advice, Turbos seem to be what most rely on and was reflecting on that, trying to point out not to rely on just one specie as it will most likely leave a hole in ones line of defense, as we seem to agree.......In fact, I read others responses commonly after I post, adding later as I did here.......which sometimes can be embarassing, but it helps keep my train of thought/original idea without contamination, ensuring I can provide all my thoughts in one place without leaving any holes.......at one time......as I am usually trying to "teach a man to fish" by trying to explain some of the "theory" as I have come to know it......

I know its par for the course, but I was not trying to point out any thing you may have omited.......thank you for the acknowlegment.....it is appreciated.

Afterall, it bugs me when you spend a great deal of time trying to help someone, and then another comes in and only points out your "misguidance".......that is never my point, and I hope I have not stepped on your toes here......

Because it is confusing enough for the guy with the actually problem to get conflicting information, where arguments of method break out where in the end.......the poor guy with the problem still doesn't have a straight answer and is even more frustrated.

Cheers

[Rakie]

haha, don't worry DOTS I was speaking on everybodies behalf, not mine.

I tend to write out advice like id take it. If my CUC were to come into question and somebody said "Get Turbo's" id take that as "Make sure to get turbo's with w/e else you get"

Some people take advice word for word, and id feel bad if this guy came home with 20 Turbo snails and nothing else :D