Tank is crashing.. Help..

[indigobluetc]

Well I found out yesterday that my nitrates were 160+.. Fish look like crap! Words dont describe. SO I did a 48g water change and they seemed to look a little better. Now I woke up in the middle of the night to find them looking worse!! So I retested and level skyrocketed again! I have no clue why its doing it and I am doing everything I can to keep them down but nothing is working! I what else can I do besides water changes? I added prime since I was running out of options but did not seem to help.. Guess I just wanted to rant... Sigh.. Dunno what to do..
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135g
29g sump
About 8+ months old.
75 Lbs rock

PH 8.4
Am 0
Nate 160
Nite 0
Temp 79
SG 1.025

Argonite about 2-3"

No luck on lowering levels so I have set up a ghetto QT untill I can figure out what to do.. All reading stable in there as of now and going to do frequent water changes. I do know some one who has a 120 running for 2+ yrs that I might have take them.. They should recover in good water conditions right?

[stingythingy45]

Sounds like you're doing the right thing with water changes.
Did something die in that tank,like an anenome or an urchin that might not look it?
Yes,the fish should recover in good water conditions.
You should also check for ammonia in that tank.

*No skimmer mentioned in your set up?

[Albanets202]

I am a beginner, so please take this with a grain of salt. I would get Polyfilter
http://www.aquatichouse.com/FILTRATION%20MENU_files/Polyfilter.asp

and keep with water changes. Meanwhile, find your nitrate accumulation source. I suspect mechanical filter or undergravel filter or bioballs. If you have old carbon, it could have saturated and released bound substances all at once. If your sandbed is too thick, remove some and vacuum ~30% today. Check your sump and get chaeto. Check skimmer.

[Sk8r]

Run carbon, lots of it: polyfilter is not a bad idea at all. Water changes. Albanets is quite right re nitrate sources and carbon. And do look at your sandbed, whether it has black pockets: this is bad, if it does. ORdinarily it would not need vacuuming, but if black areas, come back here and we will see about a fix.
your moving the fish to qt was correct. Prepare to keep them there until this is sorted out. Change filter media and carbon in qt daily and test their water 2x daily.
Test and report results: temperature
salinity
alkalinity
ph
nitrate
ammonia...in numbers if possible.

List all fish and inverts you had in there before this happened.
List all weed species you had in there or in fuge before this happened.

A future recommendation: no matter it disturbs the pure fish-ness of a FOWLR I recommend such tanks keep one coral species: green star polyp, isolated so it doesn't spread. It will not come out if the water is going bad, so, unlike fish, it will generally warn you to test the water asap. An alternative; green mushrooms. Neither requires special lights, and their behavior will visually warn you of something amiss.

Report back when you have some readings and let's see what can be done to get those fishes home safely.

[indigobluetc]

Nothing died in there. Its a FOWLR setup.. I have tested for ammonia and it is 0. I am going to test the water in my ghetto QT tank about every hour to make sure it is ok.. I have fresh water on hand just in case.. Now for the 135 I have no clue where it is coming from.. Friday they were all good nothing unusual. I think I actually tested the water that day and it was all ok.. Now Saturday morning I woke up and the lion looked all faded and the puffer had cloudy eyes.. The SFE and lunare wrasse were just fine. They looked normal and swimming all about. SO Saturday I changed about 48g of water out of it for new stuff. They seemed to be looking better except for puffer, they were all out and about like normal. Well this morning well more like 2am I woke up and lion had lost both of his horns! Puffer was still the same, the SFE was WHITE! The wrasse looked a little different. I have not changed anything in the tank for a long time. Have not added fish in over 2 months. Nothing has died in there.. Now When I took everyone out I found a few Silversides half eaten under rocks.. I though that would cause ammonia to spike.. Would it possibly have something to do with the nitrate?

Just tested QT:
Ph 8.4
Am 0
Nate 0
Nite 0
Sg 1.025
Temp 79

On the black pockets I dont have pockets but I have random black crap on the sand bed

[Albanets202]

Absolutely, it was another cycling and your tank had ammonia and nitrite spikes, and now in excess of nitrates.
Fish are very stressed. Usually I would not disturb them and just do a lot of water changes (no more than 25% at once). But if they are sick already, QT and proper medications...

[indigobluetc]

I never had any ammonia or nitrite spikes tho.. That is what is weird.. I just had the nitrate spike.. I test my water either daily or every other day.. SO I would of seen it

On the carbon thing.. Does everyone run it? I have heard mixed opinions. I had it in there for awhile and all was well but then I took it out and all was well..

[indigobluetc]

Update.. Lost the lion.. Just went and checked now.. Kinda liked that guy had him for a good 8 months or so.. Everyone else still kickin.. If I loose another puff will prob be next..

[abulgin]

What kind of filtration are you running, and how deep is your substrate?

[indigobluetc]

29g sump with PS sand is about 2-3"

[Stuart60611]

I would also dose some vodka to the tank ASAP. This will lower your nitrates dramatically in 24 hours. Not a permanent solution, but something that could save your fish.

[indigobluetc]

Vodka dosing huh? Never heard that.. How much dont wanna have drunk fish lol

[abulgin]

That substrate depth is dangerous because it can trap detritus without providing the means to anaerobically break down that detritus. I'm sure you've heard of deep sand beds, or DSBs, which are beds of fine sand of 4"+. I recommend that substrate either be 1" or less or 4" or more. This could very well be your problem--you could have a lot of fish poop and other detritus suspended in your substrate that is just spilling off nitrates.

Do you regularly vacuum your substrate and, if so, do you do it in sections rather than the entire bed at the same time? Did you stir up your substrate (this can release trapped nitrates)?

[indigobluetc]

Have never vac it in any of my tanks and was fine.. Hmm so that could be it. Damn all the money wasted on the sand.. Sigh guess I can pull half out and see what happens. I am running carbon now so once the tank is not pure black I will start working on it.. SO no in between on the sand huh either 1" or less or 4+?

[WinnipegDragon]

You haven't answered the question about a skimmer? With only 75lbs of LR, no skimmer, and any decent sort of bioload you simply don't have enough filtration.

Basically, you are running the equivalent of a freshwater tank as far as filtration goes, you can convert Ammonia and Nitrite but you are not removing organic compounds and have no Nitrate export. In freshwater this is the norm, and you need weekly 20%+ water changes to keep Nitrate levels under 60ppm or so. Skimmers are designed to get organics out before they break down into the nitrogen cycle.

[indigobluetc]

I have a skimmer could of swore I said that.. I had 4 fish in there.. SO I had a bio load just not a big one..

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13275677#post13275677 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WinnipegDragon
You haven't answered the question about a skimmer? With only 75lbs of LR, no skimmer, and any decent sort of bioload you simply don't have enough filtration.

Basically, you are running the equivalent of a freshwater tank as far as filtration goes, you can convert Ammonia and Nitrite but you are not removing organic compounds and have no Nitrate export. In freshwater this is the norm, and you need weekly 20%+ water changes to keep Nitrate levels under 60ppm or so. Skimmers are designed to get organics out before they break down into the nitrogen cycle.

This is an excellent point. I didn't realize until this post that you have a 135g. You likely do not have enough live rock and, thus, enough bio-filtration.

[indigobluetc]

Um i have seen tanks with non and be ok.. I have seen larger FOWLR tanks with less rock..

[WinnipegDragon]

Even if you had enough rock, you are still going to end up with tons of Nitrate. I don't think LR is a great at removing Nitrate, you need a skimmer, DSB, sulfur system or something like that to export Nitrate.

[WinnipegDragon]

Those large tanks with less rock, how big a water change do they receive, and how often?

Even a refugium with Chaeto or something would help. Where do you think this Nitrate is going to go?

[indigobluetc]

I have the skimmer.. Like i said before.. I dunno. I found some one I know to take the fish till I can figure this out.. Its a 120 running for 2+ years.. Better then the ghetto rubermaid QT

[WinnipegDragon]

What kind of skimmer?

[WinnipegDragon]

Also, what is your water source? RO/DI?

[crvz]

what skimmer is it? did you remove the rotting food that you found? also, what kind of water are you using for water changes?

[indigobluetc]

Its an MPS 75.. Not rated for a tank this big but it never pulls much out anyways.. Yes old food is gone. I use tap water.. Saving up for a Ro/DI unit.. Recent events have took all my cash

[WinnipegDragon]

Have you done a Nitrate test on the tap water? That might be your culprit right there...

[Sk8r]

Tap water is often loaded with phosphate and nitrate.

[indigobluetc]

I have and thats a no go.. None there

[otrlynn]

If you do not already do this, it is a good idea to keep a journal or use a spreadsheet to record the results of your water testing. If you test a couple of times a week and write down the results, the hope is that you will see a trend, i.e. rising ammonia, rising nitrate, falling alk. etc. and be able to deal with it proactively. I know that sometimes I get lazy and think, "I'll remember this", but a week later, I don't.

[indigobluetc]

Ya I do that already.. Never seen this one coming. All levels were ok them bam 160+.. Sigh.. Well all fish are now on there way to there new 150g home.. Been up for over 3+ years.. They were already getting better in QT

[jwd]

How much water movement is in your tank? The tap and lack of bio filtration is probably the cause but if on top of that, detritus is just settling on the sand, in it ..... under the live rock, ........ it was bound to happen..... all it needed was a fish like a lunare wrasse to burrow into the sand to release all the toxins settled at the bottom..... I'd get a wayy better and bigger skimmer, add a refugium(I haven't heard you mention one), and hit the lfs wit blue jugs for sum rodi....

[indigobluetc]

well the fish are gone and I am going to tear down the tank and re do some stuff. Making LOTS of improvements. Also getting a 75 or 65 g sump/fuge for it.. I have both laying around just dont know which to use.. So we will see.. Not sure if I will go FOWLR again or reef.. Kinda leaning for reef since I have all these frags.. Looking in to a bigger skimmer now or a good DIY one..