Help I have created a death trap!

[kokaneejr]

Hi all started a 55 gal tank 6 weeks ago and i can't seem to figure out what I am doing wrong.

Stats:
55 gal with corner overflow
25 gal sump
Korolia 1 & 2 Powerheads
2 small heaters
Seaclone skimmer(I know but don't have money for a new one yet)
Taam rio 1700 return pump
55 lbs of live rock
2" sand bed
36" T-5 lighting

My first problem was filling it with tap. But my tap is pretty good and used prime to help clean it. I have done 3 -10 gal water changes with ro water from the store since.

Myself and a reputable LFS tested the water a couple of times and get excellent results.

PH 8.2
Temp 78
Alk 0
Nitrate o Nitrite 0
Phosphate <.5

I first added 2 turbos and 2 hermits to see if I was ready for action and the hermits died in their place. The turbos lasted a week or so but never really looked good.

Tested the water again both myself and local LFS and got the same results. Thinking I had a wierd Ammonia spkie we added 2 yellowtail damsels and 2 hermits and 2 turbos yesterday.

Today 1 dead damsel 1 missing and the hermits haven't moved snails look bad.

I can grow bryonia algae great and small fan worms are doing well.

What should I do. My wife and I don't like to see anything die, and feel sorry for what we have done but I can't seem to figure out what to test or do next. A friend from a reef association came by in the begining and thought everything looked great.

LMK if you want any more info.

I can add a few photos if that would help. Should i just start over....Craig.

[Michael]

did you aclimatise the snails and hermits, you didnt post ammonia readings, the phosphate reading is very high, would be nice to see some photos, just a few questions,

[klm2500hd]

did you test for copper?

[Sk8r]

Did you test your water for copper? If your house plumbing is in any part copper, you may have dosed your tank.
Don't panic. Run a small piece of poly filter (it's expensive, so just run a piece as a test and save the rest) and see if you get any blue color. That would be copper. If you get that result, use the rest of the packet and let it run a number of weeks until a new piece shows clear.

[toolfan]

I initially thought PO4 was killing your inverts but after reading about the damsels...

hmmm...My gut says it is your water. possibly copper or some other toxin is in your water supply. It always comes down to the water. If you start with water you KNOW is good ie:RO/DI or even distilled...it takes so much of the guesswork out.

[jbc123]

Dumb question, but did you put salt in the water? :p

You say you used tap but didn't mention the salinity or what type of sea salt mix you used.

[kokaneejr]

Sorry about that.

Phosphate was probably.005 as the LFS said it was hardly detectable. Because of the algae I wanted to get a phosphte sponge but he said there was not enough phosphte to worry about.

Ammonia was undetectable by both of us.

I have not thested for copper as LFS said fish wouldn't be effected. maybe I should?

I acclimitised as per the info from this website. Floated 20 min. then small amout every 5 min for the next 20 then release.

Sk8r please explain a bit more and would copper kill fish and leave fans and algae alone. Off to take a few photos.

Thanks all...craig.

[kokaneejr]

P.s. IO reef crystals salinity 1.025

[Michael]

well thats good news about the phos and ammonia, ok to aclimatise, let the water drip into the bag 1 drop ata time for believe it or not several hours with snails, they take a lot to aclimatise, hermits not so long, i use to lose snails when i first put them in, however i dont now, im sure snails need more time, not sure why the fish died though

[toolfan]

High levels of copper will absolutely kill fish. we use copper in the hobby to kill parasites and the like but must be careful to maintain a level that just high enough to deal with disease but not too high to harm the fish.

[kokaneejr]

Some Photos

Tank Beginning
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t100/kokaneejr/IMGP1777.jpg

Sump Begin
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t100/kokaneejr/IMGP1778copy.jpg

Tank Today
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t100/kokaneejr/IMGP1785copy.jpg

The only thing that thrives
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t100/kokaneejr/IMGP1789.jpg

Hey at least i can figure out how to post photos:)

[Sk8r]

I would expect copper at really bad levels to kill all life except algae, which loves it. Fish are also susceptible at high levels.

Was it a used tank? Do you have agriculture, railroad, or heavy industry in your area? Dumping of fertilizer, insecticides, engine sludge from railroad yard, other sludge from aluminum mfg into aquifer is a problem around here.

[kokaneejr]

Yep used tank. If it is copper is their a tutorial for your poly filter method? If not could you explain a bit more...I am hopeful I can salvage as my wife is already upset at a thing thats heating rock and algae...at least she thinks the algae is pretty....

[Playa-1]

PH 8.2
Temp 78
Alk 0
Nitrate o Nitrite 0
Phosphate <.5


I think ALK 0 could be a problem.

I would double check all the water parameters and give us accurate information. Including Salinity, ph, temp, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, O2, copper, Chlorine.
Where did the tank come from?
Where did the rock and sand come from?
Are you using a calibrated refractometer to test salinity?
Have you added any additives to the tank?

Test temp,o2, salinity, ph several times a day to see what types of swings your getting. I wouldn't add any more livestock until you figured out what happened. It sounds like you may have gotten some type of contaminant in the tank or your not getting accurate test results or the acclimation process was off base.

Tell us more about your acclimation process. 40 minutes is not enough for inverts and a little on the short side for fish too.

[toolfan]

Playa...your avitar is hands down the best I have ever seen!

Just had to say it...

[kokaneejr]

Sorry about the tests I can only test PH Salinity Nitrate and Nitrite Ammonia and temp at home and the others i am trying to remember from LFS tests.

Don't worry nothing else goes in till I figure this out.

How do I test O2

Only things added chemical wise are prime and Novaqua when I thought it was nitrates and Biochemzorb when i thought i would try and do battle with algae.

Sand and tank form a craigslist reefer.
Live Rock from the ex pres of the local reef club

[Tahlequah]

This may not have anything to do why your livestock keeps dying but the possible reason you Phosphates are low is because they are tied up in the algae.

[HappySkittles]

i dont have copper pipes in my house but the water supply STILL has copper in it D:

you might wanna just get an rodi unit or buy rodi water

[bolandess]

Just a handy acclimation tool I built that works great...

1. Get about 10 ft of 1/4" vinyl tubing and a needle valve from Home Depot. They are right beside each other, ask someone for help selecting one if you have trouble.
2. Cut tubing about 8" from the end
3. Put the needle valve in-line with the tube and tighten the jam nuts down.
4. Put the longer end in the water of the tank and secure it (I duct taped it to the outside glass) and the other end in a bucket of some sort and secure that...
5. Add the fish/snails/inverts or whatever into the bucket IN THE WATER THAT THEY CAME IN.
6. Close the needle valve off 99% of the way and start a siphon...FYI it only takes a TAD of suction through the tube to start it unless you want a mouthful of tank water!! :D
7. Once the flow starts adjust the valve until you get about 2-3 drops a second for an hour
8. After the hour set the valve to drip so you barely see a space in between the drops...leave for an hour...
9. As the bucket fills up scoop out the water with whatever is clean and DISCARD THIS WATER
10. After that hour adjust the valve for a steady flow from the tank into the bucket...discarding water as it fills...I let this go for about 30-45 minutes. Usually at this point most of the water in the bucket is 100% tank water. Acclimation complete!

You can find the whole procedure with slide show on saltwaterfish.com about half way down the page on the left labelled "Acclimation"

Enjoy!

[kokaneejr]

boandess thanks for that I will do that when i am certain I am ready.

sk8r did a search for the filter and i think that is my next option. Is it actually possible to get rid of copper if that is what it is??

Thanks for all your replies. This isn't the way i wanted to start out again...craig.

[Everyones Hero]

You might want to take a sample of your tap water to your LFS to have it tested.

You might not be showing any Phosphates because it's all been absorbed by the algae growing in the tank.

[Nyxe]

Did u mean to write Amm (Ammonia) 0 instead of Alk (Alkalinity) 0?

[kokaneejr]

Yeah you are right I meant ammonia.

quick update; not much time today to do anything but saw a glimpse of one damsel still alive and the turbos are still with us to. Maybe my tank is still young and not a lot of life yet. I bet I didn't acclimitize the hermits well.

I talked with a LFS and they will test my water for everything the next time I go in.

Thanks for all the advice and keep em coming.

I did manage to pull some algae today for a start...Craig.

[Everyones Hero]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13289867#post13289867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bolandess
Just a handy acclimation tool I built that works great...

1. Get about 10 ft of 1/4" vinyl tubing and a needle valve from Home Depot. They are right beside each other, ask someone for help selecting one if you have trouble.
2. Cut tubing about 8" from the end
3. Put the needle valve in-line with the tube and tighten the jam nuts down.
4. Put the longer end in the water of the tank and secure it (I duct taped it to the outside glass) and the other end in a bucket of some sort and secure that...
5. Add the fish/snails/inverts or whatever into the bucket IN THE WATER THAT THEY CAME IN.
6. Close the needle valve off 99% of the way and start a siphon...FYI it only takes a TAD of suction through the tube to start it unless you want a mouthful of tank water!! :D
7. Once the flow starts adjust the valve until you get about 2-3 drops a second for an hour
8. After the hour set the valve to drip so you barely see a space in between the drops...leave for an hour...
9. As the bucket fills up scoop out the water with whatever is clean and DISCARD THIS WATER
10. After that hour adjust the valve for a steady flow from the tank into the bucket...discarding water as it fills...I let this go for about 30-45 minutes. Usually at this point most of the water in the bucket is 100% tank water. Acclimation complete!

You can find the whole procedure with slide show on saltwaterfish.com about half way down the page on the left labelled "Acclimation"

Enjoy!

My LFS sells those pre-assembled. They come with a hard U-Tube that hangs on the tank.

Rule of thumb is 1 drop per second for several hours.

I put my snails/fish/corals/ect into a specimen container & then use the drip method until 2 hours has passed or the SG in the container matches that of the tank, whichever comes later.

Another way of acclimating snails is to lower the water level in the tank an inch or two & put the snails at the top & let them work their way into the tank at their own pace. I haven't tried it so I can't say how well it works.
---

On a side note: I've read that the turbo snails get pretty big (the ones at the LFS are bigger than a golf ball) & they can knock over corals & things if you are going to have a reef tank.

[prickles]

Assuming you figure out what you're doing wrong with all the stuff dying, I would recommend a phosphate reactor ASAP. You don't want that algae around and it will continue to thrive without one or lot's of work in water changes.

[Everyones Hero]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13294113#post13294113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by prickles
Assuming you figure out what you're doing wrong with all the stuff dying, I would recommend a phosphate reactor ASAP. You don't want that algae around and it will continue to thrive without one or lot's of work in water changes.

I 2nd that. I'd also turn off the lights & cover the tank with a blanket for a few days to kill off some of that algae.

[kokaneejr]

Thanks guys. I am in a waiting stage at the moment. Turbos still alive an I think well. Haven't seen the damsel assuming he is dead.
I have to wait a few days to get the water tested at the LFS as I work the same hours that they are open.

Should I turn the lights off now??

A buddy says if water tests O.K. and I try another fish and same result he recommends Take all rock out and scrub algae off. Then get rid of the sand and start again using cycle and new sand.

I would hate to loose any growth (other than algae) on the rocks i.e. fan worms and new corals starting.

What do you think??

Everyones Hero I am thinking of turning an extra seaclone into a reactor. i have seen an easy DIY. Will the algae make a mess of everything or just dissolve when I turn the lights out and blanket.

Thanks again for the help...Craig.

[royaldude]

Hi before you do the lights out bit, try to harvest as much as you can, scrape the glass, pull the stuff off the rocks etc. When you cover the tank, I would point the power heads a bit more down wards in the hopes of blowing the dying algae off of the rocks, into the water coloum and then down your over flow. So hopefully the algae won't make too much of a mess. When it is time for lights on, be ready to do a water change to try to get some of the crap out of the water from the dying algae. If at lights on the algae is still there you could try to brush the rocks with a tooth brush to get some more off. It should be a bit easier to get off. If there is still quite a bit of algae do the lights off bit again. The fish and the snails will not be bothered by a period of darkness. As for the corals, it will depend on what kind you have. I did this and my soft corals were OK.

[kokaneejr]

Thanks royaldude. My corals are just small frags cut off the live rock before I bought it so I wont be worrying to much. I just read sk8rs tips and will be trying the toothbrush method. Not to much time for me to work on it till next week though so I will run the lights a bit shorter times till then.

Thanks again...Craig.

[Everyones Hero]

I really have no idea what will happen when the algae starts to die off. I'd imagine it would start to break down & you'd get a lot of phosphates (assuming they've absorbed it) & ammonia as it decomposes.

There's just so much of it I don't know what to recommend other than going lights out to kill it off, doing water changes & getting your water quality in check in the process.

Then again I go against the grain of what many would consider "responsible reefkeeping" as I'm using well water for my tank. As much as people want to talk BS I've only had 2 things die on me. Those were 2 snails that had shells my hermit crab wanted.

[kokaneejr]

EH

Yeah it might be a mess but can't be much worse. I will try and harvest as much as possible then try it.

Don't worry about being a rebel. My buddy set his up with tap and doesn't quarrantine a thing and his reef looks great. Sometimes there isn't any ryme or reason for things that happen in this hobby. Although it seems that everthing will eventually happen to me..lol

[otrlynn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13292907#post13292907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Everyones Hero
My LFS sells those pre-assembled. They come with a hard U-Tube that hangs on the tank.

Rule of thumb is 1 drop per second for several hours.

I put my snails/fish/corals/ect into a specimen container & then use the drip method until 2 hours has passed or the SG in the container matches that of the tank, whichever comes later.

Another way of acclimating snails is to lower the water level in the tank an inch or two & put the snails at the top & let them work their way into the tank at their own pace. I haven't tried it so I can't say how well it works.
---

On a side note: I've read that the turbo snails get pretty big (the ones at the LFS are bigger than a golf ball) & they can knock over corals & things if you are going to have a reef tank.


I know you are not ready to drip acclimate anything at this point, but perhaps this will help someone else... You can really do this drip acclimation without any special equipment other than a 1/4" airline tube. Put the beginning of a really loose half-knot in the tubing. Use duct tape to tape the tubing so that one end of the tubing will stay submerged in the DT. Start a siphon from your display by sucking on one end of the tube (suck gently--it doesn't take much. Quickly slip a finger over the end of the tubing that was in your mouth and direct it into a SPARE bucket. Start tightening the knot in the tubing until reduces the flow so that you have a drop every couple of seconds. When you are satisfied with the rate. Direct the tube to the bucket that you have placed your livestock in, along with all of their original shipping water. You might even have to put a book or something under the edge of that bucket to tilt it if there wasn't enough shipping water in the bag. Remove the prop when you get a little more water in there.

[rogergolf66]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13288759#post13288759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kokaneejr
Sorry about that.

Phosphate was probably.005 as the LFS said it was hardly detectable. Because of the algae I wanted to get a phosphte sponge but he said there was not enough phosphte to worry about.

Ammonia was undetectable by both of us.

I have not thested for copper as LFS said fish wouldn't be effected. maybe I should?

I acclimitised as per the info from this website. Floated 20 min. then small amout every 5 min for the next 20 then release.

Sk8r please explain a bit more and would copper kill fish and leave fans and algae alone. Off to take a few photos.

Thanks all...craig.

ok well a privous post you said good LFS or something along those lines no good fish store would say this. Change stores.