Been Months and STILL bubbles in tank

[Kdocimo90]

So it has been about 8 months since my 210 has been set up and there are STILL bubbles in the tank... I tried taking off the sponges to the pumps but that didnt help... I tried cutting down bubbles in the sump but that didnt help...

I have 2 Danner Mag-Drive Supreme 12 1200 GPH Pump acting as return pumps.... Is that just too much?

Its not constantly spraying bubbles into the tank. About once every 10 seconds, one of the returns on the overflow sprays a mist of bubbles into the tank, this builds up and the tank appears cloudy all the time...

I just want to get a prestine and very clear looking tank, whereas having cloudy/bubble is getting reallly annoying.

anyone think they could help?

Thanks

[crvz]

are you confident that your plumbing is sealed well? sometimes when the plumbing doesnt have full integrity air can sneak in and cause microbubble issues. Also, could the pumps be drawing air in from a vortex? How deep are they submerged in the sump (Assuming they're used in-sump as opposed to external).

[Kdocimo90]

Yes they are internal pumps.
there is about 2-3 inches of watter above the pumps
as for a Vortex im not sure... im gonna draw up a picture to show you how the sump is structured... I'll post it in a sec

[Kdocimo90]

oh and i dont know if it makes a difference but my sump is only about 35 gallons... most people i know have a much larger sump.

but that could be totally irrelevant.

[Kdocimo90]

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn126/Kdocimo90/FishTankSump1.jpg

oh and the pumps are facing so the sponges on them are inwards

[Kdocimo90]

adn the bubbles are very very tiny.. so they dont float to the top right when they're sprayed in the tank, they just mist the tank up

[sjm817]

Shut off one pump and see how it is.

[Kdocimo90]

ok

[Kdocimo90]

alright well one pump has been off for about an hr now... the bubbles have calmed a bit.. but i still see a mist of small bubbles coming out the overflow hooked up to the pump thats still on.

[jallen18]

do you have a filter sock on your drain and/or skimmer output?

[azcraig]

I had a problem with bubbles that were coming from the hole they put in the return lines to prevent backflow in case of a power failure. It was above the water so it apparently was sucking some air. I raised the water level in that overflow and it cured the problem.

[aww_419]

it sounds like either there is a mis-seal in the plumbing, or the skimmer return is letting out bubbles or your taking in bubbles from your overflow. try putting a filter sock on the sump return and running the skimmer return also into the sock.

[BigEivlSquid]

I have seen pumps cavitate and inject bubbles before. are you throttleing the pumps back at all, that can cause it. Do the pumps make any unusual noise when you get ublles in the tank?

[weluvfish54]

add a filter sock to your drain in the sump. prob solved for me.

[Kdocimo90]

1. I dont have a filter sock in the sump
2. I dont think that is the problem because if it were bubbles from the sump doing this, wouldnt there constantly be bubbles blowing out of the return?
3. How can i raise the water level in the overflow? wouldnt that just raise the water level in the sump?

[weluvfish54]

is it built in overflow, or external box?
if its built in, look up a durso pipe.
if xternal, just lower the box that hangs in the tank and make sure you have a full siphon tube and be sure your pumps are fully submerged...a filter sock would help id try it. even just a rag and zip tie will work.

[Everyones Hero]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13320479#post13320479 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kdocimo90
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn126/Kdocimo90/FishTankSump1.jpg

oh and the pumps are facing so the sponges on them are inwards

From your drawing it looks like the skimmer exit is dumping right onto the sponges for your return pumps. If that's the case the bubbles might be coming from water that already has micro bubbles in it falling onto the filter & making more bubbles.

Might also be because of your sump feed creating bubbles. Do you have the room to build a bubble trap?

[Kdocimo90]

well i have had the skimmer off for about a day... the pump died some how... also, if the sump was creating the bubbles then wouldnt there be a constant flow of bubbles back into the tank rather than just a mist of bubbles ever so often?

[Kdocimo90]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13323444#post13323444 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by weluvfish54
is it built in overflow, or external box?
if its built in, look up a durso pipe.
if xternal, just lower the box that hangs in the tank and make sure you have a full siphon tube and be sure your pumps are fully submerged...a filter sock would help id try it. even just a rag and zip tie will work.

1. built in overflow... i had to hook up myself though because it didnt come with the tank.
2. my pumps are fully submerged
3. what do you mean by look up a durso pipe, what would i be looking for?

[sassafrass]

The pulsing nature of your micro-bubble problem indicates a cycle. Is your return line right at the waters surface? if so put a 90 degree elbow on it. what can happen is the water exiting the return at a high speed raises the water level in that chamber slightly causing back pressure slowing the flow a tiny bit that in turn causes the water level to drop starting the cycle over .The elbow will prevent that. Hydro dynamics are very complex maybe this will work perhaps not but at least it is cheap and easy. My two favorite things.

[weluvfish54]

http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

[weluvfish54]

that will raise and keep the water level in your overflow box higher. i had the same prob as mine would drain to the bottom and be VERY loud.

[Kdocimo90]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13324132#post13324132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sassafrass
Is your return line right at the waters surface? if so put a 90 degree elbow on it.


Here as a picture of the pumps structure... the return is facing straight up.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn126/Kdocimo90/SumpPump1.jpg

[abulgin]

You have an air leak somewhere in the plumbing. The reason it's cyclic is because the air is building up somewhere in the plumbing and then releasing when the bubble is big enough to break free.

You need to spread a thin coating of silicone sealant over/around all of your plumbing joints.

[Kdocimo90]

ok i will try that... on both returns because they both are causing bubbles

[abulgin]

If it's feasible, you could unscrew those returns and wrap teflon plumbers tape around the threads and then remount. I suggested silicone film over joints just because in most cases it's impossible to unscrew/unplug everything without water spraying everywhere, but if we're talking about a connection that's easy to unscrew then I'd try the teflon tape first.

[Kdocimo90]

yeah i think im gonna have to go with silicon film.

[abulgin]

Okay--and fyi, you can do this while your tank is running without worrying that the silcone is going to poison everything. I do this from time to time on one connection--where the output of my external return pump is plumbed to the return pipe--that for whatever reason leaks a small amount of water. I just slather Perfecto silicone around the joint--put a couple layers on; once the first layer dries, add another.

[fender4string]

are bubbles just an aesthetic problem?

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13327137#post13327137 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fender4string
are bubbles just an aesthetic problem?

No, they can cause health problems in fish/corals. I can't remember all the issues, but I've heard they can cause embolisms. Search wetwebmedia.com re

[Kdocimo90]

is there any particular silicon film you would recommend?

[abulgin]

I just get the Perfecto silicone in a tube that your LFS or any Petsmart/Petco should sell. You can also use GE's Window/Door 100% clear silicone that Home Depot sells, but you have to make sure it is the one without any anti-fungus/mold additives. It needs to be pure silicone.

I put a dab on my index finger, and then just smear it around the joint a couple times.

[laud]

From my mistakes I've learned that you should have 3-5 times the turnover in your sump. You've got 12 times.

There was a TOTM that purposefully injected air. weatherson (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-04/totm/index.php) , I think.

Check it out, it may change your mind about aesthetics vs. dangerous.

I would up your sump and decrease your return pump. Also, add bubble baffles to trap any bubbles.

Good luck

[Maxi]

Are you dosing calcium?

I dosed too much calcium and I get a mist. It's calmed down, but not 100%.

Don't dose unless its necessary, test the water first. I have tried everything, I even built a whole other bubble trap to stop it thinking it was bubbles, but it wasn't. but the 2 bubble traps was so worth it.


too much calcium = snow.

DON'T DOSE UNLESS YOU TEST!

[Kdocimo90]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13327297#post13327297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by laud
From my mistakes I've learned that you should have 3-5 times the turnover in your sump. You've got 12 times.

what do you mean by this?

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13327297#post13327297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by laud
From my mistakes I've learned that you should have 3-5 times the turnover in your sump. You've got 12 times.

There was a TOTM that purposefully injected air. weatherson (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-04/totm/index.php) , I think.

Check it out, it may change your mind about aesthetics vs. dangerous.

I would up your sump and decrease your return pump. Also, add bubble baffles to trap any bubbles.

Good luckweatherson (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-04/totm/index.php)

This is really irrelevant to this thread. If you have microbubbles that are not caused by your skimmer's output, you have a leak in your plumbing. Microbubbles can cause health problems, and are unsightly, so the leak should be fixed. Whether the OP has enough flow through the sump really is another topic altogether.

[laud]

This was my story...bubble trouble (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1226739)

[laud]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13327381#post13327381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
This is really irrelevant to this thread. If you have microbubbles that are not caused by your skimmer's output, you have a leak in your plumbing. Microbubbles can cause health problems, and are unsightly, so the leak should be fixed. Whether the OP has enough flow through the sump really is another topic altogether.

Do you still think it is irrelevant?

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13327736#post13327736 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by laud
Do you still think it is irrelevant?

Well, yes and no, although I see NOW after reading your thread what you were implying. I think what you're saying is that his flow rate is causing bubble trouble? I don't think so. He has 2600 gph rated pumps, but I'm sure he's pulling significantly less than that due to head loss. I am running a 1,365 gph through my 90 gallon, and I have no microbubbles.

From the OP's description of how the problem is manifesting itself, I believe he has a leaky seal somewhere. It doesn't sound like his sump or flow is the problem. In fact, I think he said earlier that he disconnected one of the pumps and the problem stayed pretty much unchanged.

[Kdocimo90]

well i dont think its a GPH issue whereas i turned off one of the pumps for a day and there were still bubbles.

[Maxi]

Kdocimo, are you sure they are bubbles? I am not saying you can't see them, just be sure because I thought I had bubbles turns out it was calcium snow because I dosed.

[Kdocimo90]

http://rsrc1.bubbleshare.com/media/00/f4/58/f0/169848e4ddc3a7f477c1455df2dafcb06aacf8dd/580x435/CIMG0077_580x435.jpg

http://image6.bubbleshare.com/media/00/f4/58/ed/bdfc27ac108abb1f7ff453e5f642e07d896aa2f8/580x435/CIMG0076_580x435.jpg

[jonrn]

Kdocimo90, i have the exact same problem as yours, but i have my skimmer as external, i use a sponge too on the return. my tank is 7 mos old, everything is ok, its just those bubles the same as your description.(very annoying thats why i ust prefer to turn the light out the most of the time so i wont see them) i turned off the skimmer and its the same so im really thinking its the plumbing. i use vinyl. im so tempted to seal the joints but i donno what to use, but ive read on ur thread that we can use silicone. Just a question to you guys, if i decide to re do some of my plumbing in the future for whatever reason, will i have any difficulty removing them when the silicone is there?

[abulgin]

From your pics, your bubbles don't look that bad. Are we talking billions of tiny bubbles all the time, or just a few bubbles or periods of bubbles?

[sms55]

I also think it is plumbing and or a sock issue

[laud]

Kdocimo90 has 2 1200's, or 2400 gph going through a 35 gallon sump, which is probably less than half full, making it 2400 gallons going through a 17 gallon reservoir.

One last thing. Take a flashlight to the sump and look again if there are microbubbles in the sump near the return pumps.

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13329247#post13329247 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by laud
My last word is that Kdocimo90 has 2 1200's, or 2400 gph going through a 35 gallon sump.

First, unless he's got some major holes drilled in his tank, I doubt he's actually running 2,400 gph through his tank. OP, how is your tank plubmed? How many overflows or bulkheads do you have, and what's the diameter of the holes? Do you use any ball valves to dial down the flow?

Second, I have a Little Giant 1,350 gph pump (dialed down of course) going through a 15 gallon sump and I don't have microbubbles.

He stated he has the same problem when he turns one of the pumps off. I think this is a leaky plumbing problem.

[laud]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13321276#post13321276 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kdocimo90
alright well one pump has been off for about an hr now... the bubbles have calmed a bit.. but i still see a mist of small bubbles coming out the overflow hooked up to the pump thats still on.

Sounds like it changed it a bit. Did you also try to alternate the pumps?

abulgin, I heard you. But there is a slight possibility it may be something else.

[sjm817]

IMO, and IME, I agree that too much return flow is a big part of the problem. With a 35G sump, I would want maybe 600 GPH max. The sponge wont help. It will fill up with bubbles till it cant hold any more, then they come right through.

I would do this: take all the sponges out (as a test), turn off the skimmer, run only one return pump. Get a very bright spot light and look at the sump. Are there bubbles in the return area? If there are, you will have them in the display. If not, turn on the skimmer and do the same test. Post back the results of this.

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13329393#post13329393 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by laud
But there is a slight possibility it may be something else.

I agree it could be any number of things, but the fact that he still had the problem after turning off a pump led me to my conclusion. I would say silicone up all the joints and see if anything changes. If not, then we know it's not leaky plumbing.

[Kdocimo90]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13329393#post13329393 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by laud
Sounds like it changed it a bit. Did you also try to alternate the pumps?

It did change a bit... because bubbles were now only blowing out of one return... Like I said before... both returns are blowing bubbles ever so often...


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13329406#post13329406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817

I would do this: take all the sponges out (as a test), turn off the skimmer, run only one return pump.

Last time i did this the whole tank clouded up... i dont know if it was crud from the spong getting taken off or just a ton of microbubbles... but its not something i want to do again.

[sjm817]

If you shine a very bright spotlight in the return area, and look closely, are there bubbles?

[Kdocimo90]

Let me check.. one minute

[Kdocimo90]

ok so heres the deal...

i took a look at the sump... and there are no bubbles in the pump section of it... but underneath the sponge (the one that has its own section of the sump) i can see a constant stream of micro bubbles coming from underneath (where water leads to the pumps) its not an amazing amount of them, but its enough to do the job... what should i do?

completely take out the spong and just smoosh a filter sock down there or something?

[sjm817]

As I posted previous, the sponge wont do any good. Once it fills up with bubbles, they will go through it.

Scrap the sponge. Another problem is a low baffle like that is directing the bubbles down low where they are readily picked up by the pump. Can you block that and force the water to go over instead of under?

Another thing you want to do is stop the bubbles as far from the return as you can. If you want to use a filter sock, use it in the drains.

[Kdocimo90]

1. Scrap the sponge...good idea... annoying to clean anyways lol
2. I'll try to figure something out to block the bottom.. i have some acrylic sheets i could work with...
3. Would you happen to know where i could get the filter socks that are more clothy material... there were two that came with my sump but kinda rotted out... all i've seen lately is that sort of netty type of filter bags.


thanks for you help by the way

[sjm817]

Glad to help.
What size filter sock(s) can you fit? Use as big as you can so you dont have to change as often. 100 micron works well.

I use two of these:
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PM-BG100&Category_Code=GFI

here is a smaller one
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PM-100S&Category_Code=GFI

[Kdocimo90]

Well I had two really big and nice filter socks that came with the sump and hook up like this.... They both had rings in top (open part of the bag) so that it would fit right into the two holes underneath where the water was entering the sump.. heres a picture... hope you can see whta im talking about

http://rsrc1.bubbleshare.com/media/00/f4/6b/08/b48086454bb648fcc14eb5ab9b0f56b1d84a2687/580x435/Water-Going-Into-Sump_580x435.jpg

[sjm817]

Whats the diameter of the ring, length of the sock?

[Kdocimo90]

I dont know... I trashed them... i could tell you the diameter of the hole in the sump that they would fit in though.

[Kdocimo90]

the holes are roughly 7" in diameter and overlapping... so anything that has a ring over 7" would do i guess

[sjm817]

This should work
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PM-BG100R&Category_Code=GFI

My other suggestion is to stick with the single Mag12 which I think is still too big for a sump of that size, but try the other things first.

[Kdocimo90]

ok i'll see what i can do... thanks alot

[Kdocimo90]

and it says 16"... im guessing thats the length right

those look exactly like the ones i had

[laud]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13320479#post13320479 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kdocimo90
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn126/Kdocimo90/FishTankSump1.jpg


Is there a way to raise the water in the return section? It also sounds like, from what you've said about the bubbles under the sponges, that you are sucking air into the pumps.

I have one powerhead that is 14" deep in the tank and every once in awhile it sucks a tornado of air down and blasts a bit into the tank. I think it is cool.

You may have the same type thing in your sump.

[Kdocimo90]

well the water level in the return section actually isnt that low.. i should have drawn it better... its a bout an inch less than the water in the sponge section.

I honestly dont think its cool that bubbles are being sprayed and dulling the tank lol.

Umm Im gonna gut a piece of acrylic that i have to fit and replace the sponge section... could i just put it down against the eggcrate and put a few rocks on it or am i gonna have to glue it down?

[Kdocimo90]

or what if i just put a bunch of filter floss underneath the sponge?

[Bonneville08]

Have you tried adding a little more salt water to your sump? The pumps can suck in air from the surface without you being able to see it. Every time I have had a problem like this, it was from vortexing, and it can be hard to see. Try adding another inch or two of water to the sump to see if it works before you start tearing things up.

[sjm817]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13333261#post13333261 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kdocimo90
or what if i just put a bunch of filter floss underneath the sponge?
Wont do a thing to help. You need to prevent bubbles from getting that far, and what does, dont use an under baffle to direct them down toward the pump intake. You need to block that off and make the water go over instead, and then, very little drop to the return area.

[Kdocimo90]

Umm Im gonna cut a piece of acrylic that i have to fit and replace the sponge section... could i just put it down against the eggcrate and put a few rocks on it or am i gonna have to glue it down?

[sjm817]

I would cut it to fit nice and snug and use some super glue gel to hold it in place. Clean up the surface best you can first. Maybe try without glue first while testing.

[Kdocimo90]

Yeah I might be able to get it to "wedge" in there... but not ultra tight... just enough to stay

[sjm817]

I think a wedge fit would be just fine.

[Kdocimo90]

kk thanks for the tip

[Cheetos&Cocopuf]

Air getting in between line-loc joints?
Try beding them so they are underwater as much as possible.
Feeling your frustration, good luck.