red turf algae

[AquaPython]

to the author of the article,
i posted this thread in the algal forums:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1467095

i am still battling this red turf algae. i have a handful of atlantic turbos and one large mexican turbo. I have not necessarily seen the mexican eat this stuff.
is there any other info on this red turf nuisance?

[melev]

Sandra Shoup isn't posting on RC as much as in the past, so...

Have you been manually picking any of this out of your system, being careful not to release it into the tank? Like green hair algae, each pinch should be removed from the tank, dipping your fingers in a bowl of water to rinse off any bits of algae to avoid reintroducing it into your reef.

You may need a few Large mexican turbo snails.

And there is a possibility that API's Algaefix might help. I just got a bottle but haven't tried it out yet.

[AquaPython]

hi melev, thanks for your assistance here.
not sure if you clicked the link, and sorry i ganked your photo but i gave you credit. anyway, i am thinking that what i have differs from what you wrote about / photographed. the pics dont really match after a second glance.
i had one lone mexican (snail) and wasnt sure if he was doing anything, but yesterday i added 3 more. hopefully i see a decrease in this stuff.
also, i could not remove any of this with my fingers , or with a toothbrush. i think it tries to attack the tips of my ORA green stylo, and definitely in one area of a closed maze brain. other than that, it is not really attacking corals, but maybe inhibiting growth.

[melev]

Let us know what those new snails do. Usually older snails are less inclined to eat what you'd hope, as they are lazy or have found an easier food source. New ones from the LFS are starving and ready to work.

[AquaPython]

cool. i never thought of it that way. i will check back in a few days with some results hopefully.

[AquaPython]

hey Melev, just wanted to give you an update
the red turf is nearly completely decimated, thanks to those mexican turbos! there is still some in some hard to reach spots like on some trumpet coral skeleton for example.

i will take an 'after' shot for you soon.

strangely, when this algae dissappeared , i had a breakout of another similar algae, but this one was green and easily tugged off of surfaces. my PO4 tested at zero still, and i have a fuge, but it seems the algae was eating it, keeping it out of the water column. i hadn't been running PO4 media in my reactor for many months, so i put in a fresh bag and that stuff is quickly dissappearing too.

[melev]

I'm glad to hear it is going away. Algae can be so frustrating at time. Keep up the good work. :)

[AquaPython]

melev, i am back
this other stuff i was talking about in the above post did not go away, it came back with a vengeance!

it seemed the niche was filled by this annoying thing. this stuff clings and grows on everything, even my birdsnests and other SPS!1! :flame:

however, unlike the turf stuff, it can be pulled off with a slight tug. there is just so much of it!

what is it? how do i kill it?

i have a large fuge which basically stopped growing cheato after it was growing like mad for a year or so. the cheato in it basically just sits there, not growing. i have not pruned in months.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/IMG_2960.jpg

vid
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/th_MVI_2962.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/?action=view&current=MVI_2962.flv)

[melev]

First of all, pull out all you can. Let's get that stuff out of your system ASAP. Can you post a picture of your refugium? Perhaps the bulb needs replacing? Or you may need to dose a little iron.

[AquaPython]

hmm i did not think about the bulb in the fuge. it is just a swirly from home depot. the problem with pulling it, is that it comew right back, and the little clumps that i lose float around and get caught on SPS and irritate them, even take root and grow there,,

[melev]

Try turning off the pumps, and pluck it out, rinsing your fingers in a bowl of water outside the tank after every pinch. That avoids any floating portions. You can always siphon some out too.

Blow off all your rockwork to expel detritus accumulations.

[AquaPython]

getting pretty frustrated now marc. on saturday i spent 2 hours plucking out about 90% of the visible gunk.
i was hoping the rest would be eaten, or stop growing.

i had performed a water change , changed out the fuge bulb and now the cheato seems to be growing. also added some fresh carbon.

i was hoping these things together would make the difference, but here wednesday night the stuff is definitely reclaiming lost real estate. would a tang make short work of it?

[melev]

Can we see an updated picture? How many snails do you have now, and are they new additions or are they 'lazy' ones you've had a while now? How old are the bulbs over the tank?

[AquaPython]

i will take an updated pic tonight.

i should have 3 mexican turbos at this point. i had one, bought 3 for the red turf, and one has since been eaten by an electric blue leg hermit. i have ~25 atlantic turbos, various cerith snails and super tongan nassarius. i also have a handful blue leg hermits.

i forgot to mention that the stuff is growing over the coralline algae on the back wall of the tank.

i recently (one month + ) changed out for the first time about half of my 2 year old T5s. the half was the actinics that are on 12 hours. the other half are the 12ks (8 hours i think) and 10k/6500k set (4 hours i think) the other half i was planning on changing out around march.

[melev]

If there was a bulb adding to the problem, I would expect it to be your daylight bulbs. After all, algae grows best under sunlight conditions, which would be 6500K. 10,000K bulbs may have shifted closer in spectrum to 6500K.

Ripping it out by hand as you did is you best bet. Unfortunately, issues like this one are rarely fixed in a day, and you may have to reduce the population daily for a couple of weeks, no matter how much you hate doing it. Once the mass has been removed, what is left could be maintained by your snails.

New snails fresh from the LFS tend to be starving. Your stats show you have a 150g tank. The old rule is 1 snail per gallon, and I tend to buy 100 at a time for my own reef, via www.keyscritters.com - you may need to do the same.

[AquaPython]

what snail do you think would be the best option?

[melev]

If you are dealing with red turf, which your latest pictures don't really indicate, Mexican Turbos (the biggest ones). If it is GHA, Astreas would work. Ceriths may help, and a Sea Hare would be good. Even a Diadema Urchin will help mow down filamentous algae.

[AquaPython]

right, it does not appear to be red turf anymore. it is something new, since the RT is gone.

even if i change the bulbs, the stuff wont just stop growing right?

[melev]

Algae grows when there is fuel. The fuel is nutrients, phosphate, nitrate, and lighting.

Take away one, you weaken it. Take away more than one, you should weaken it more.

The more you remove manually, the quicker the battle. The snails, hermits, etc will help maintain the tank too. With the amount of algae you had in that one picture, it was definitely being fed with PO4 and NO3, even if your tests indicated otherwise. By ripping it out, the values of those tests should change because it is no longer bound up in the plants.

[AquaPython]

i have been reading zero and pretty much everything for over a year now. but i also have a big ball of cheato in the fuge. i used to mail out ziplocked trimmings every few weeks, but it stopped growing around july when i moved the tank. also around when i first saw the red turf appearing (first stuff, not the new stuff). now that i changed the bulb i am getting some growth again, but i am also getting some cyano build up on the top layer. so i churn it every day or so.

i took some pics last night, and idk if my camera is dying but i was really having trouble with the white balance. the lights changed during the pics. keep in mind it is not really as reddish brown as it appears.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/IMG_2963.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/IMG_2964.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/IMG_2967.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/IMG_2970.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/IMG_2971.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/IMG_2972.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/IMG_2973.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/mikeg31781/Tank%20Upgrades%20Dec08/IMG_2974.jpg

[melev]

Are you running GFO on your tank? Sometimes that will make algae look darker / brown, although you did say it doesn't look like this in real life with those pictures.

If you have algae growth, you don't have zero phosphate. Either your kit is faulty, the method of testing is faulty, or it is bound up in the algae. Try ramping up the flow in the tank, specifically taking a turkey baster or powerhead and blasting off the rockwork to get the detritus in suspension.

Looks like you have more picking to do, and the new snails should really help.

[AquaPython]

ok, i pulled out a bunch more of the growths. it is very time consuming because my finger pinching pulls so little out every time!

i found some serious clumps accumulating in the over flow teeth so i made sure pull that out, and scrape the walls. i added 23 astrea turbos, and did another small water change.

i am starting to think i should just purchase the daylight T5s...

[AquaPython]

the fight continues. i think the new snails are slowing the progress.

i am starting to lean towards the daylight T5s. maybe i should just order them now?

i have a toadstool and a yellow fiji leather that are not extending polyps for about 2 weeks now. is this light related? or could it be flow related? i temporarily removed the one modded MJ that was pointed right at them because it was covered in the algae and making noise.

[melev]

It could be a combination of issues. Do you run carbon actively on your tank (in a phosban reactor or canister filter) by any chance? Let's try to reduce any possible pollutants in the water via carbon.

I hope the snails help, but you need to continue picking off as much as possible by hand. Remember every pinch, you need to rinse your fingers off in a bowl of water out of your tank to avoid releasing portions back into the tank.

The leathers may be closed down because your hand is in the water frequently. It could be bothered by the algae. It could be parameter related. I doubt lighting would make it close down, unless your lighting was so dim it was dying. It could just be closed up because they do that some times, usually to shed. It could be chemically affected (alleopathy from other corals/anemones in the same system). It could be due to a fish nipping at the polyps.

I think they like lots of flow. I have a huge Toadstool leather directly under a VorTech pump and it seems to like the pounding it gets. Here's a picture of my reef from two nights ago:

http://melevsreef.com/pics/08/12/fts_121408.jpg

[AquaPython]

beautiful as always!

- carbon, i have a small sock in the sump. how much should i be running for a 150 - 180g system ? i had some in the phosban reactor, but since but some phos media in there to help pull the PO4 out of the water to fight the algae.
should i run chemi-pure?

- i do pull out large amounts, but some always gets away from me. usually by the end, i start getting frustrated and pull off a lot , fast , and dont put it in the container. a lot of it gets caught in the over flow teeth where i can easily grab clumps. or it gets pulled down into the sump were it gets skimmed or dies in the fuge.

im thinking they want their direct flow back. i will get that going tonight hopefully.

[melev]

Carbon works best in a reactor of canister filter. For your size tank, 1.5 to 2 cups. I would change it weekly for now, to strip the water clean.

Any floaters can reattach elsewhere. If you had a filter sock on the drain line to capture it during your picking sessions that would help, but anything that lands loose in the reef can appear later as more growth. So better to dip and rinse, then pinch again.

I know it is a horrible task, but once you've gotten it under control, it really is resolved. You may have to do this task for 30 minutes every day for 14 days in a row, but think of what it will look like once it is gone. That may be enough motivation to keep you going. ;)

[AquaPython]

yea i think every 2 days or so might be better than weekly. one problem is that i can really not reach the bottom layer of rocks. there is small % of the stuff there, luckily the bulk of it is higher up.

is 2 cups one sock full ?

[melev]

The phosban reactor can hold 3 cups. Just grab a measuring cup.

And you definitely want it in the reactor. How long has the phosphate absorbing media been in that reactor? When I ran both, I used two reactors instead of combining them.

What is the PO4 measurement today?

Pick daily, not weekly. Not every other day. If you jump all over this with a vengeance, you'll get it under control. There are no magical cures unfortunately.

[AquaPython]

but i like magic! heh

ok i will step it up to daily.

the PO4 , i will test again, but is consistently testing at zero, with new good tropic marin kits. This time i switched from phosBan to PURA PhosLock. it is maybe a month old. it is in the bag, in the reactor. when you run carbon , do you run it in a sock or just fill the reactor? last time i had it in a sock, in the reactor.
i also noticed that some companies now sell combination media like phos media with ammo media and carbon media , etc. so shouldn't mixing phos media and carbon be ok ?

[melev]

The carbon in my reactor is loose, sitting between the two sponges included with the reactor.

Carbon isn't good nearly as long as GFO, which is why I don't see a benefit to combining them in the same reactor.

You and everyone else in this hobby wants magical solutions. I'm the same way with aiptasia. I don't want to have to Joe's Juice them daily. So once a month I hit all I can see, and then get annoyed when I see some or many over the next few weeks. Why didn't they all just go away? ;)

[AquaPython]

good news!

we have won the battle at Rose Mille hill, but not the war!

something (s) decided to clean the entire rock clean today! i spent the last few hours concentrating on the other side of the tank.
i used a filter sock during the operation, and added my missing modded MJ back into the mix.
also, the toadstool had full polyp extension and the fiji had partial PE , and better color.
things are looking up!

on a side note, since you brought up aip, it has not really been much of a problem for me. i have maybe 2 that my peppermints refuse to eat. i also have a pleasantly colored variety of majano, that spread all over....
any way, my brother told me he found a great solution, hypodermic needles with vinegar. heard of it?

[melev]

Sure have. That can be one way of dealing with them. I've tried quite a few methods myself. But like I said, I usually do it once or twice, then sit back instead of staying on top of it.

[AquaPython]

marc, i'm back!

good news is, the newly added turbos are surely and steadily removing the last of this second algae attack.

bad news is some of the original red turf came back, but that is also receding now.

the reason for this post is, now i have two new macro algae's sprouting up in my display sand bed. one of them looked like lilly pads (zoanthid size) on 2" stalks. there were about 4 of them, possibly all gone now. the other one looks like olive green fern plants growing off of a common root, that is spreading out a few grains of sand deep. this one seems to be thriving. i can get a pic tonight. any idea what it/they are?

[melev]

Try looking at this slide show for a matching algae, and read what it is labeled beneath the images.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/reefslides/index.php

Maybe that will help. The lily pads are the first picture featured, and the fern-like algae may be Bryopsis.

[AquaPython]

right, i was looking for that slideshow.

i think that is correct on the first one.
Acetabularia sp. - Mermaid's wine glass


2nd one may be:
Caulerpa sertularoides - one of seven species of 'feather Caulerpa.' Photo courtesy of Marc Levenson (melev).
or
Bryopsis sp.


i also have this stuff sprouting up
Neomeris sp. - caterpillar weed, spindle weed. Photo courtesy of Ryngill.

are they pests? action taken? manual removal?

[melev]

Neomeris annulata is pretty, and in most cases it is a pretty bit of algae. I've only known one person that hated it, as it burst into his tank like mad.

http://www.melevsreef.com/id/annulata.jpg

However, everyone in our club asked for some because they liked it. :lol:

Bryopsis and Caulerpa are both algaes we don't want in our tanks.

[AquaPython]

ugh,
well it was almost definitely feather caulerpa. i got what i believe to be all of it out last night. but i found on another rock bubble algae and red bubble :eek2:
i have gone years with no algae, not even cyano, and now in the last 6 months my tank is growing all kinds of stuff. not sure why either...
and my cheato is still not really growing. although i think may have found a clue. my SG was at nearly 1.030. i am guessing that may be inhibiting the growth of the cheato? i have been slowly dropping it down.

[melev]

That could be. And you may need to check you the age of your light bulbs.

[mcarroll]

For posterity, I would have furthered the all above good advice with the following:

Hand place a turbo snail (or other, but Turbo's seem to be more friendly to the process) right on the algae you want him to eat. In my limited experience they always cooperate and it's much easier than plucking. :-)

As always, YMMV. Good luck!

-Matt

[AquaPython]

For the Record,
i added a small FoxFace, and he is systematically eradicating my system of this red nuisance!