ReefResults Marine "Calcium Carbonator"

[DrBegalke]

I saw this product in the MACNA pic threads...

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4632/image000tq3.th.jpg

was wondering if it is Calcium acetate, like Salifert’s All in One?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It does sound like Salifert's All In One, but I've not seen a good description of the ingredients.

[DrBegalke]

Ya, same here. Maybe someone who's actually seen the bottle/has the product will know....

[Boomer]

OK Randy, now do not laugh to hard :)

It is a Calcium Carbonate "mud". Meaning the bottle is 3/4 full of a white paste ( IMHO 10 or less micro Aragonite) and 1 /4 water = IMHO concentraed Purple-Up

The Easiest and safest way to add calcium carbonate to your aquarium! A premium, water soluble, proprietary formula is the ideal, all-natural, one-step calcium carbonate buffer. Years of research and development testing on all types of aquariums has resulted in faster growth, more intense colors, visibly healthier inhabitants, massive coraline algae growth and increases PH and Alkalinity, calcium magnesium, strontium, potassium, barium, iodine, iron and all major and minor trace elements. The proven list of benefits just keeps growing! This product is a must for anyone maintaining a marine fish or coral reef aquarium

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ah, Kent Liquid Reactor and their ilk.

If true, I'd avoid it. :(

[DrBegalke]

Thanks for the info Boomer.

[Boomer]

You bet Dr :)

[tropical lyle]

well have you used it yet! its amazing how fast people are to give negative opinions on this site without using a product first.

this product has been available locally in pompano beach florida for over a year.

I had used b ionic on my reef aquairum for over 3 years and got acceptable growth coloration and health.

but after going to my Local LFS looking to buy more b ionic i was convinced to give it a try.

within two weeks my corals growth at least doubled if not more and the color and polyp extension of my corals was the best i had ever seen.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13373041#post13373041 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
It is a Calcium Carbonate "mud". Meaning the bottle is 3/4 full of a white paste ( IMHO 10 or less micro Aragonite) and 1 /4 water = IMHO concentraed Purple-Up


paste? when i pick up my bottle the settled "mud" as you call it is very fluid and light. not settled or hardened in any way like aragamilk becomes.

when speaking with one of the employees of reef results he explanined to me why the product is the way it is.

he said that the product contains all the minor and major trace elements that corals require and is manufactured using natural minerals. However he said in the manufacturing process the minerals are converted into a water soluable form.
the setteling is due to the supersaturation of the product.

All i know is that im very happy with my results!!!

[Boomer]

I seen the product. I know where it is made. He is good friends with the Pres of the Miami reef club, Herman, who is also a good friend of mine. And you are being feed a line of BS. This is the chem forum and this sound like a marketing BS ad........sorry. Here, try and get the guy from that company to dare and come here for a chem discussion and see what hapens.

[tropical lyle]

well seeing as larry is not a chemist i think he would be at a slight disadvantage discussing the actual chemistry behind the calcium carbonator.
Ive been buying from larry for quite some time now and have found that he has more hobby experience that anyone i know. he has helped my understanding of the reef aquarium grow in leaps and bounds.

yes he is friends with herman, who's term just ended. I think if you distrust larrys product maybe you should ask your friend herman and see what he thinks.

i am merley a hobbiest that is speaking about his positive experiences with this product. i dont claim to have in depth knowledge of reef chemistry and thats why im here, reading and learning. i think you can understand why i am somewhat defensive of this product since it has given me the best success thus far in my reef keeping experience.

and even if it does contain aragonite, so what, tell me if im wrong but doesn't aragonite contain all the minerals lps/sps corals need

now ive seen aragamilk, a caribsea product, and that is just aragonite in water, but i can tell you, that bottle gets rock hard on the bottom and you have to beat that thing hard to shake it up.

my calcium carbonator doesnt do that. so that alone tells me there is something different with his product that just water and aragonite

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

well have you used it yet! its amazing how fast people are to give negative opinions on this site without using a product first.

We bashed the product on the assumption that it was similar to Kent Liquid Reactor, Aragamilk, etc. We made that clear.

If you have some evidence on what it is that is different from what Boomer posted, we will by all means reanalyze it. But we do not need to test every brand to know that calcium carbonate CANNOT dissolve in seawater. Science says so clearly, as do tests I have performed and published on similar products.

What's sad is not the we so quickly bash faulty products and save reefers from wasting money or worse, but that knowledgeable people and companies continue to sell them to unsuspecting reefers.

and even if it does contain aragonite, so what, tell me if im wrong but doesn't aragonite contain all the minerals lps/sps corals need

Yes, it does. And since it does not dissolve, none of them are available to the corals. Same as putting aragonite sand as substrate in your tank. It is just not possible to combine calcium and carbonate in a bottle and not have it be calcium carbonate. It is certainly possible that the product has other stuff in it as well, but we cannot know if it does, or how much or what form to know if it is useful or not. But the calcium carbonate in it is not useful.

[tropical lyle]

thank you randy, for your polite and insightful knowledge

one thing im confused about though, in a calcium reactor the media we use is coral skeletons which is aragonite right?

doesnt a calcium reactor add both calcium and carbonate to the aquarium at the same time in a way which is available for the corals to use?

and the two come out in the same clear liquid, so what has happened?

is it because the carbonate is broken down into bicarbonates that its usable?

can you elaborate or give me a link that further explains the chemical process in a calcium reactor.

thanks.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, in a CaCO3/CO2 reactor the CO2 drops the pH low enough for the calcium carbonate to dissolve (pH less than 7, typically). Such a setting does not arise in the aquarium, except possibly in small amounts deep in sand beds. :)

These articles explain the processes more:

A Guide to Using Calcium Reactors
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/sh/feature/index.php

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

[tropical lyle]

thanks again randy

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing. :)

[Boomer]

Lyle....Sorry :D

thank you randy, for your polite and insightful knowledge

Yes, I agree but some of us old people are just getting tired of snake-oil claims so to speak and are not as cool and calm as Randy always is. To many people in this hobby get ripped off, which I have a known short fuse for. As far as Herman goes, ask him or Tony Vargus who they would trust on reef chem. I talk to Tony weekly and stay with him when I go down.

doesnt a calcium reactor add both calcium and carbonate to the aquarium at the same time in a way which is available for the corals to use?

and the two come out in the same clear liquid, so what has happened?

is it because the carbonate is broken down into bicarbonates that its usable?

Yes, as Randy has given but lets look at some other things. First, there are no two chemicals or a combination of chemicals we could use to give a "mud" like bottle of Calcium Carbonator, that can do as claimed. If there was we would know about it and explain it to you. If someone has one then they should get the Nobel Prize, as they have accomplished something nobody has ever been able to do :D Brightwell makes the same claims and there have been debates on it here with the owner,Chris Brightwell....he lost. As usually, with the line of BS a company secret. They all think we ar stupid or something with this nonsense claim.

There are 4 things to look at.

1. Calcium Chloride

It has no Alk component. It you added one it would turn in to a brick, limestone, in a concentration like Calcium Carbonator.

2. Calcium Hydroxide, Kalk.

Not even worthy of a comment in a bottle like Calcium Carbonator :)

3. Calcium Sulfate, plaster of Paris

Same as 1

4. Aragonite or Calcite, micro size

Has both Ca++ and HCO3- and CO3--. As you have seen from Randy's articles it does not dissolve as the pH is not low enough. Not that zero will dissolve you will get a nil amount but not much of anything to really do anything with any real levels measurable.

A self-test for you

Take 1 L of IO mix or other salt mix

1. Measure its pH, Alk and Ca++.

2. Add the recommended dosage of the Carbonator.

3. Retest the sample pH, Alk and Ca++.

4. Now take the 1 l and run it through a 1 micron filter/socket.

5. Retest the solution again for Alk, pH and Ca++.

What you will see. The Alk, pH and Ca++ will go up in 3 and in 5 it will be a rise in Ca++ and little rise in pH and Alk.

Why ? The Calcium will be from the Calcium Chloride in the Carbonator. Your test kits for Alk and Ca++ use either a strong acid or strong base. These dissolve some of/all of the powdered aragonite and give false test kit readings. The micro filter will filter out the powered aragonite so it does not effect the test kit and will thus show little if any rise in Alk and the Ca++ will be lower than in 3

[Mike O'Brien]

The levels may fall as well from precipitation on the fresh aragonite surface just added.

[Boomer]

Yes, very true Mike ;)