Help with adding drains; PLEASE help

[hotwire73]

K my 235 has two 1 1/4 drains. If I let the system drain and turn it back on it basically will start flooding over before the drains finally get enough back pressure. I also really would like to go to a bigger sump pump then my 4000 gph since I dont have enough circulation.
K I have a 1 1/4 diamond bit, question is is there a way to latch a drill somehow to the half inch glass to drill this aquarium with it setup without having to tear it completely back out of the house? Just curious if anyone has done this. Wish I would have done it before, but I couldnt get hardly any help getting this thing in as it was. Please any ideas would be appreciated, neighbor said something like a thing used for the door but it wouldnt work. If you dont want to post it please PM me I really need to consider expanding this before it becomes a problem.

[192clark]

I actually do not think your problem is drain size. The return pump is to large. 2000 gph is sufficent through the sump. All other flow should come from power heads or a closed loop.

[crvz]

I would say even something on the order of 1500 gph is sufficient for your tank. If you want more flow, using the return pump is not a good idea. Look into powerheads and closed loops, not an overly zealous return pump.

[hotwire73]

Well Im having problems with some kind of bacteria that looks like algae. Their saying I dont have enough flow. If I have to add powerheads then why not go ahead and just use a larger pump. At 290 gallons and 2400 gph is roughly only cycling 8 times an hour. I thought at least 10 was desired. My pump also pushes my ets1000 skimmer that needs a min. 1400 gph. Problem of returns is if you kill the power and restart it will overflow for a few secs until enough suction has been created.
Please let me know what is ideal for a system this size for gph circulation. CRVZ why do you think a larger pump would be a bad idea?
192clark and crvz thanks for your comments and time.

[rogergolf66]

Well return water to the sump it 3X-5X Turn over from powerheads or closed loop 10X-20X in FO or softie tank.

all a larger pump would do is make more noice. also you have head loss with a pump that pushes water from the sump up so you loose alot of flow. Do some research on powerheads or CL

[hotwire73]

Thing is on my return lines that are 1/2 inch, I have 3 t's and an end one that goes back to 3/4 inch. The 3/4 is at the bottom of the tank and keeps it circulating decently around. Of the 1/2's on the top t is open, and no choice since if power goes out the water will keep draining backwards until it empties the tank, learned that one really quick. So if I can add around another 1000-1500 gph in the return it should only increase the circulation right? Try to remember the pump Im looking at uses about 75 watts less power and gives me around 1500 gph more. And to be honest, I dont want anything else plugged in because I am at my limit on this circuit as it is. If I try to plug even a vacuum cleaner on this one it kicks the circuit. I still have 5 options on new breakers in the box but I dont wont to add one since I am expanding about 800 sq ft on the home within the year. The pump itself is rated at 7.1 amps which is half basically of the 15 amp. Im not sure what the 400 watt halide sucks up, any ideas? I do still run a emp 400 filter system at the top of the tank incase I need to make an emergency hospital tank. I tested the water last night and again this morning and for the first time in 5 years, I have 0,0,0. I have never been able to achieve 0 nitrates, and I dont use anything outside carbon, filter material, lr, ls, and a skimmer. I even feed my fish everyday and half stuff floating for hours in there at times before they eat it. Also where that red stuff is growing you can watch teh green algae hair flow back and forth around it, so just how much more circulation is needed? Heck I could just give them a 10k pump that way they can have their own tropical storm, jk. Just please try to remember the reason I added all the t's to the return line is so I could have more options in adding water flow, without having to add 10 gadgets in the tank. If you dont think this is still good enough let me know please, and rogergolf thanks for your suggestion and if you have any links or articles on powerheads and cl, please let me have some. Currently I run the right end return line aiming left down the 6' area to the left return, which aims forward and a little left, thus creating a cyclone affect. The rock in the middle is really the only thing growing that but would be in the eye of the storm I guess lol. But the hairs are moving constantly, just not sure how much more movement you are suggesting.
Back to the topic any ideas? Lol dremel makes a small stand that would would work, just dont think a dremel would power a 1 1/4 diamond drill though half inch glass.

[hotwire73]

Oh and for the head loss from pumping water up I am very aware of that and that is why I chose the pump I have, its rated only 120 gph loss at 5 foot and only 120 more at 10 ft. So around 3680 at 10 ft and it doesnt pump over 5 ft up. I noticed alot of high volume pump around 4k-5k lose up to 1000 gph at just 5+ foot. But thing is I can get a higher volume pump that uses less power and is more eff. than the one I using from 5 years ago. Please do Im me or post some links relating your closed loop ideas.

[Prodd]

how about a HOB overflow?
no drilling involoved make it as big as you like, Melev has threads on DIY stuff.

Just a thought.

[hotwire73]

Thanks prodd, I hate overflows because say the power kicks; 1 you have to have the intake area high enough that it will not continue to syphon whater and over flow the sump into the floor. K the problem is if your gone and power goes and then comes back on a few minutes later the overflow on the back will not have the pressure to restart its flow. So basically youll Ild have a flooded house. I had to learn the sump overflow the hard way after about 3 floods while I was there and caught it in the beginning. I had the return tubes from the pipe pushing all the flow into the bottom and was using powerheads to circulate the top. Well when I turned the sump motor off and wouldnt quit pulling water backwards though the lines. I had to put a t at the top of the return line above the base of the overflow returns to balance it out.

[192clark]

no offense here but you ask for others to help, but you intend to do it your way. Take the pointers about closed loop and/ or power heads

[Macimage]

I am confused.

I have two Ampmaster 3000's running through my sump. The flow from the tank to the sump is via two 2" bulkheads. One of the Ampmasters is for flow only and returns to the tank via two seaswirls. The other Ampmaster has a T and goes to my skimmer (returns water to the sump) and the chiller (returns to 3rd seaswirl).

If I turn the power off, the sump fills up until the seaswirl nozzle is out of the water.

I don't see why you are having this problem. I don't understand:

"basically will start flooding over before the drains finally get enough back pressure. "

The drains will drain until air goes into the lines. If they are too far down in your tank, your sump will overflow unless it is large enough to hold all the volume.

Joyce

[hotwire73]

K you have 2 2", I have 2 1 1/4's, I am pushing around 2400 gph to the system itself. Total is 3860 at 5 ft, but the skimmer is using about 1400 of it. If I turn off power and let it drain and turn it back on not changing anything it will start to overflow, has done it several times, but just for a few secs. Once there is enough pressure in the drains it for some reason speeds up. I dont understand this but after about 10 times of watching it without fail, its just happening.
192clark, I asked for help on drilling extra holes if its possible. Not a matter of my way, I want the extra holes for security and so I can increase the sump pump. If you also read sir, I asked several times for links about closed circuit and powerheads so I could reveiw what you guys are thinking. But at 2400 gph on a 235 gallon tank that is only about 10x cycle per hour. Increasing to 14-15x I dont think would hurt anything and seems more desirable by some who are just doing bare bottom tanks. I have good movement on the top (rippling and good movement), as well as at the bottom; but I would like to see just a little more. I only had one think red algae place (bacteria) but it did have it on it from my old tank when I movd it over, but is now gone. I have for the first time in my years doing salt water achieved 0 nitrates and I havent added or done anything extra. I also feed shrimp everyday to the stock.
I would just feel alot better if I had at least one more if not two more drains. One guy stated he had 2 2", which would be fine to, but I only have a 1 1/4 inch diamond bit. I have drilled several 55 gallons, but never a 1/2 inch glass like this and would like to know if there would be a way to do it while still somewhat setup.
I run the larger motor for one the volume of water, but two understand I no longer have any heaters, water stays 80-82. With the t's 1/2 inch below surface and two of them at the top it keeps circulation on the water surface. I dont want a bunch of gadgets in the tank if I can achieve similiar results without them.
Please forward any links for your closed circuit (I dont understand what this is) and powerhead theroies.
I do understand that a 500glh powerhead in a tank will use less power than a pump pumping 500 gallons up to the tank. Its just if I can use the wattage for heat (which is needed anyway) then I am gaining a benefit to offset the expense.
I am not saying I cant be wrong, so if your absolute in your ideas then bare with me. We all have to make a decision (at our expense) from the collection of knowedge we have; and hope its the best one.

[Macimage]

Do you mean your skimmer starts to overflow?

If so, I have that problem and have to adjust my skimmer every time I turn off the pump. I would not plumb it this way again.

Joyce

[hotwire73]

No macimage, its not really possible to overflow my skimmer. Its an etss1000 which is basically a 62" downdraft. If I adjust the control valve to the two returns to the tank to full open, it would flood, it can not handle that much water with just 2 1 1/4 drains. So I leave it at about 75% open with the 1 inch line that goes to the skimmer wide open. Its suppose to be unparalled in oxyegen exchange and blow off co2. K as long as nothing is touched the system runs really good. Water level is 1 1/4 inch below the top of the glass. If I where to unplug the pump and let it drain, basically enacting a power outage; and plug it back in; doing nothing to the valves; the water fills up to the very and starts to run over a little before the two drains start catching up. Odd I know but its the way its doing. So what I do is let it fill to the very top of the glass turn the valve down to 50% for about 20 secs and by then it is draining faster; then I open it back to 75%. I would feel alot better if I had another drain or two. Most systems this size do use 4 holes or at least 2 larger ones. This aqurium did have two more holes in the bottom, but I cant use them on this stand and really wouldnt want to since it would be a pipe all the way from bottom to top. Try to remember if I get the new pump it will be using less power and I get more flow. Now I think I guess I could overflow the skimmer if I shut off the return line to the tank all the way and force the 3600-3800 into the skimmer lol. It only has a 1 1/4 inch drain from the base of the block. Im going to look up your hsa 1000 skimmer. Ive considered doing a little in reefing but not sure what I can do with all agressive fish, hard corals? I need to start researching calcium reactors since I have absolutely no clue how and they are accomplishing. Curious what problems youve had with your powderblue, Im wanting to finally get another one and an emp angel again now that I have the room. Thanks again for the time macimage.

[hotwire73]

I like that your skimmer has an ozone port included thats for sure. Looks like 1080 gallon per hour recommended. See thats something I think some are overlooking when Im talking about my pump, it powers my skimmer and returns. Recommendations on my skimmer are actually 1500-2000 gph. I cant open the valve all the way to my return lines since it would overflow the system, but also even though the 1" line is wide open to the skimmer it will not keep it up, with both valves fully open. I hope when I upgrade the motor to actually force more to the skimmer as well. I thought about running 2 seperate motors, but I really am trying to make this with as few moving parts as necessary. If possible when and if I add a calcium reactor I would like to power any flow required from the same pump as well.

[RocketEngineer]

hotwire73,

http://www.superskimmer.com/ETSS_1000.htm

If you look about half way down the page, it states that the flow through for that skimmer is 800-1200 gph which is much higher then you state above.

In order to achieve that flow rate from one of your drains, you would need that overflow to have a length of 12-18" (a 6" x 6" corner overflow) around one of your 1-1/4" drains. This was determined using this calculator:

http://reefcentral.com/calc/drain.php

Now assuming you drain the skimmer and the second drain both into the sump, you would need a pump capable of 1800 gph at whatever head pressure you have and an overflow length of ~27" to fully max out the two 1-1/4" drain lines you currently have. Remember, to calculate the volume capability of two pipes, you have to add their respective areas and get the equivalent pipe diameter for the combined area.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/newbie/index.php

This is an article discussing exactly what has been recommended here; 3X-5X the tank volume through the sump per hour. This is noted about half way down the article in "I've heard that too much flow is a problem. Is that true?". The article also discusses how to prevent flooding. Personally, I feel that if the power fails, the tank owner should have to do nothing to restart the tank. If you have to adjust valves to keep the tank from overflowing I think you need to re-evaluate your plumbing setup and incorporate some safety features. A system that big is too expensive to have fail because of something so easily remedied.

So, given that you are limited to ~1800 gph through the overflows but you want more flow from the return pump, how do we do that?

Answer: Enductors!

http://www.kthsales.com/website/Misc/hello_salt_water_enthusiasts.htm

Now, the thing to note about these little beauties is that while they only use 420 gph, they need it at ~10 PSI (23' pressure head) so you will need a pressure rated pump. The article recommends Iwaki pumps but there are many other options available. Look up the pressure head curve to get a handle on how many outlets you can use based on the pressure head induced by the enductor.

The neat thing about these is that while they require such a high pressure head, they use very little flow from the pump itself but move 2-4 times the through flow within the tank itself. So 1800 gph would supply 4-5 enductors with a total of 7200 gph moving in the tank. That's 30X the tank volume moving in the tank for a cost of 375 watts.

Now, lets assume we go with a smaller pump for the overflow and powerheads for the in-tank flow. Taking the $500 for the Iwaki 100RT + penductors we instead buy say a Reeflo Snapper which theoretically you could run full open and still not outpace the overflows. With the $270 we have left, we need to achieve 5400 gph. Now, shopping around a little, two Hydor Koralia Magnum 7 power heads would supply 5600 gph for ~$280 and use only 12W each.

So instead of 375W for one pump, we use 108+12+12= 132W for an energy savings of 243W or 64% less electricity used.

At $0.10 per Kw-h electric rate, thats a savings of $212 per year.

In conclusion, trying to get all the flow for a tank out of the sump return pump has many different disadvantages including 1) large drain lines and long overflows in the tank, 2) high flow rates in the sump which may result in micro-bubble issues, 3) Large return pump which uses a lot of electricity. By contrast using a relatively moderate flow through the sump and getting most of the flow from power heads (CL being quite difficult to implement on an established tank) allows you to keep the costs of replacements down, saves on the electric bill, and because you can move/add the power heads as desired, it allows for a much more flexible system overall.

HTH