View Full Version : Vodka Question
Randy,
What is exactly is dosing Vodka doing to the water in the tank? Can it interfere with anything else running? Like reactors with carbon, GFO, sulfur denitrators?
I am just curious what it is doing to the water chemistry. The instructions I have read tell you to dose 0.1ml per 25 gallons for the first 3 days then double it for 4-7 days then add .5ml after that till you notice the nitrates drop. On a 300 gallon system lets say I start with 1 ML per day and just stay with that dose will it still lower the nitrates some? Or do you have to go thru the complete process?
Randy Holmes-Farley
09/30/2008, 05:55 AM
Well, it can enhance the ability of deep sand beds to denitrify as the ethanol can get into the sand and act as a source of organics to be anaerobically degraded using nitrate as the "oxygen' source. Craig Bingman suggested this many years ago with respect to vinegar use, and it applies to any dosed organic carbon source.
It should not directly impact GAC, except that the growing bacteria may release organics that get bound to GAC.
It may allow some carbon denitrification inside of a sulfur denitrator, just as in deep sand, but I don't see any problem arising from that unless it suddenly becomes more anaerobic to the point where hydrogen sulfide is produced. So folks with sulfur reactors might find they need to adjust the flow rate upwards a bit to avoid hydrogen sulfide.
Obviously skimmers may experiences effects due to the organics released by the growing (or dying) bacteria, but ethanol itself at these low concentrations should not impact skimming much.
There are lots of complexities to what is really happening, but I expect that any addition of vodka will contribute to bacterial growth and hence nitrate and phosphate reduction. I expect the procedures that folks have worked out are one way to try to control the process, but I believe there are also other ways, especially when one is using the method in conjunction with other export methods (such as growing macroalgae).
Thanks for the response Randy. I do use Chaeto in my refugium but really do not see a benefit from it. Maybe because I let it grow to much my refugium area is almost full of chaeto. I was intrigued by this vodka idea but am always hesitant to add things to my tank that are a little out of the norm.
OK so if on a 300 gallon system I dose 1 ML of vodka daily what results do you think I will see after a couple weeks. My current nitrates are at 40ppm.
I will be happy to get my nitrates down to the 10-20ppm range.
Genetics
09/30/2008, 09:12 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13454406#post13454406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
Thanks for the response Randy. I do use Chaeto in my refugium but really do not see a benefit from it. Maybe because I let it grow to much my refugium area is almost full of chaeto. I was intrigued by this vodka idea but am always hesitant to add things to my tank that are a little out of the norm.
OK so if on a 300 gallon system I dose 1 ML of vodka daily what results do you think I will see after a couple weeks. My current nitrates are at 40ppm.
I will be happy to get my nitrates down to the 10-20ppm range.
It sounds crazy, the idea of adding foreign compounds to aquariums to achieve nitrate reduction. I'm not one to jump on bandwagons but I figured when I setup my new tank last year I would give it a go. Not only did it work, it worked almost to well. Now with that said, there are many ways to go about nitrate reduction that have proven to work in the long-term. Ethanol dosing has yet to be shown in a long-term setting. So recommendations would be to use this method short term but you should look at getting to the root cause by utilizing other methods.
Depending on your setup, I don't know if you will see any benefits with 1mL/day additions. Also, percentage of alcohol plays an important role in dosing.
Melev has a blogspot on vodka dosing going on his site http://www.melevsreef.com/log.html.
Thanks for the link. So you don't feel that 1ML a day will do anything?
Based on the instructions, if I have them correct, I should dose 1.2ML per day for 3 days then go to 2.4ML for 7 days monitoring nitrates the entire time. If I don't see a change I then increase the 2.4ML to 2.9ML a .5 increase and continue that till they nitratesd drop. That is based on a 300 gallon system. I was just thinking that if I wanted some of the nutrients to stay in the tank for the chaeto I would just add less vodka. I was hoping that by just adding 1ML I would see a drop in nitrates but just might not go to 0.
Am I thinking incorrectly?
Genetics
09/30/2008, 10:47 AM
Yes, you can certainly limit additions to your tank if you won't to keep chaeto growing. The increase as per the instructions is a way to help prevent overdosing as each system is different. As you increase you will be testing to see if there is a change in your nitrate levels. Once you hit that amount you can stay with that dose until nitrates reach whatever levels you want and then cut back to maintain them.
Try 1mL daily and see if those results work for you.
Randy Holmes-Farley
09/30/2008, 11:08 AM
I personally think doing it with macroalgae growth taking up the slack is a good plan, and limits the chances of driving down anything too low or, for that matter, using up as much O2.
In a sense, adding it as one of many ways being used simultaneously, each doing a part.
I've been experimenting with that on my system, but I stopped when I added my new red haddoni as I didn't want to add anything that might increase the severity of any potential bacterial infection it might have or get.
Great thanks again for the responses. If I understand you Randy you think my 1ML a day idea along with the use of the chaeto seems to be a better way to go.
I will try it and if anyone is interested I can post my results. I will start tomorrow morning because I check the tank every morning before I leave for work. It will just make it easier to remember to add the vodka every morning as well.
My nitrates have been staying steady at 40ppm for some time now even with the use of a scaled down sulfur de-nitrator.
Randy Holmes-Farley
09/30/2008, 11:49 AM
Yes, I think that is a fine plan, and would love to see the data. In my case, I'm not monitoring anything except my perception of the tank and the several refugia (where I want my macroalgae to thrive, but would prefer less cyano).
OK I will start tomorrow and post results as I go.
Randy Holmes-Farley
09/30/2008, 12:05 PM
:thumbsup:
Good luck. :)
erics3000
09/30/2008, 11:05 PM
Curious about your results. Look forward to your progress..
OK today is the first day of dosing 1-ml in my 300 gallon tank. I tested nitrate last night and I would say I am in the 40-60 range on the api kit. If anyone would like me to keep track of anything special let me know.
First dose went in at 5:20AM. 10/1
Genetics
10/01/2008, 06:34 AM
Things to keep track of:
Skimmer Output
Any fish that may be having breathing issues
Algae within the tank
Nitrates
Will do thanks. When I got the syringe I was surprised on how little 1ML was. If that little amount does anything to 300 gallons of water I am going to be in shock......
Genetics
10/01/2008, 08:32 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13461569#post13461569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
Will do thanks. When I got the syringe I was surprised on how little 1ML was. If that little amount does anything to 300 gallons of water I am going to be in shock......
As Randy pointed out, using a multifaceted approach to controlling nitrates is probably most ideal. With your denitrification reactor and chaeto, there is a chance that you could see some change. This change will be on whether you are relatively close to balancing nitrates already. If so, then you may tip the scale to reduction and over time see an actual benefit.
I hope that is the case. I have had the sulfur denitrator on the tank for at least 2 months and the level will not drop below 40ppm. I also have a large amount of chaeto growing in my refugium I should probably trim. I guess softies do not mind nitrates because my leathers are growing real nice. All other tank parameters stay perfect.
Alk 12 dkh
calcium 500
ph 8.1 to 8.3
nitrates around 40 as high as 80-100
Mag 1350
If I can get the nitrates to stay in the 10-20 rang i will be happy.
I do have a large bio load with some large tangs and a couple eels.
mhaith
10/01/2008, 05:23 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13461569#post13461569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
Will do thanks. When I got the syringe I was surprised on how little 1ML was. If that little amount does anything to 300 gallons of water I am going to be in shock......
Don't be fooled! I have been dosing between 1-6ml in my heavily stocked SP/Mixed and ended up dosing too much! 1-2ml looks like an absurdly small amount but gets the job done when used in conjunction with other export methods.
Things to keep track of:
Skimmer Output
Any fish that may be having breathing issues
Algae within the tank
Nitrates
Add Polyp Extension on Softies and LPS and Colors as SPS faded in my tank with too much Carbon Dosing.
Thanks for the heads up. I am just going to stick with the 1ML and see what happens after a couple months.
kaskiles
10/01/2008, 06:52 PM
I think you should also monitor phosphate levels, as carbon dosing is supposed to also lower those. Even though you might not have any phosphate sensitive corals, your macro will want some. If you happen to notice any macro algae growth slowing or stopping, but still have high enough nitrate, it might be nice to know for sure that the macro isn't be starved of phosphate... If both the nitrate and phosphate are still high and macro is dying back, maybe the bacteria has consumed some other trace element (maybe iron).
Tagging along. FWIW I dosed vodka at 4ml per day for 500g for four months with no unanticipated ill effects. Chaeto did wane a bit as well as xenia.
Randy Holmes-Farley
10/02/2008, 05:22 AM
Tagging along. FWIW I dosed vodka at 4ml per day for 500g for four months with no unanticipated ill effects. Chaeto did wane a bit as well as xenia.
Any positive effects?
I didn't have the phosphate colorimeter then , so I wasn't measuring. But , yes,anecdotally, bryopsis and derbasia all but disappeared and the other corals lps and sps did well.
OK an Update......
Not sure if it is the vodka or the trimming of the chaeto that I did on Saturday. But for the first time my nitrates are going down. They are in the 20 ppm range. I have been dosing the vodka every morning since Oct 1. at a rate of 1ML. So something seems to be working and I notice no ill effects in the tank. No real increase in skimmate at all.
The0wn4g3
10/08/2008, 06:05 PM
Tagging along as well.
I've got a quick question. I remembering reading somewhere that in order for vodka dosing to work, there needs to be an excess of phosphate and nitrates. Is that true?
Hopefully Randy will chime in but I would say that is not true. I run GFO all the time so my phosphates have always tested at 0. It is my nitrates I would like to see improve some.
The0wn4g3
10/08/2008, 09:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13510099#post13510099 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
Hopefully Randy will chime in but I would say that is not true. I run GFO all the time so my phosphates have always tested at 0. It is my nitrates I would like to see improve some.
I'm in the same boat - nitrates. I don't see how it could be true, because that would mean vodka effectiveness would be limited to phosphates, which from everything else I've read doesn't seem to be the case.
logan 12
10/08/2008, 09:34 PM
I thought Vodka was for drinking.
Genetics
10/08/2008, 09:45 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13509986#post13509986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The0wn4g3
I've got a quick question. I remembering reading somewhere that in order for vodka dosing to work, there needs to be an excess of phosphate and nitrates. Is that true?
In any system there is free phosphates and nitrates. The rate of decline may differ based on which bacteria, and in turn their composition, require to grow. As an example, if you have a bacterium that needs a ratio of N:P of 600:1 then you would theoretically need 60ppm of nitrate to lower phosphates 0.1ppm. As many bacteria potentially utilize vodka as a material for growth this number differs based on the bacterial population in a reef tank so there is no concrete number. Also, there may be other organics that are taken up with N or P already incorporated making this even more difficult to delineate.
With that aside, even if you have GFO running which reduces phosphates to a 0.02ppm you could still achieve a theoretical reduction of 12ppm nitrate. So yes, you need both but it shouldn't be a problem running GFO concurrently.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13511427#post13511427 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
In any system there is free phosphates and nitrates. The rate of decline may differ based on which bacteria, and in turn their composition, require to grow. As an example, if you have a bacterium that needs a ratio of N:P of 600:1 then you would theoretically need 60ppm of nitrate to lower phosphates 0.1ppm. As many bacteria potentially utilize vodka as a material for growth this number differs based on the bacterial population in a reef tank so there is no concrete number. Also, there may be other organics that are taken up with N or P already incorporated making this even more difficult to delineate.
With that aside, even if you have GFO running which reduces phosphates to a 0.02ppm you could still achieve a theoretical reduction of 12ppm nitrate. So yes, you need both but it shouldn't be a problem running GFO concurrently.
So if I understand this then a system that has 0 phosphates vodka dosing should not do anything? Not sure I understand.
Randy Holmes-Farley
10/09/2008, 04:41 AM
Well, there are two possible processes, and vodka can drive either (or both). Aerobic respiration and growth of bacteria consumes both nitrate and phosphate. But in low O2 regions, vodka can drive much more use of nitrate than phosphate as bacteria use nitrate as an oxygen source to metabolize the ethanol in vodka, even if they are not growing all that much.
Genetics
10/09/2008, 06:14 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13512447#post13512447 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
So if I understand this then a system that has 0 phosphates vodka dosing should not do anything? Not sure I understand.
As Randy pointed out, there is the alternative denitrification pathway by anaerobic respiration. This would reduce nitrates without the need of phosphates. However, I doubt anyone will get a limiting level of phosphates without overdosing their tank. Not that the process wouldn't occur.
I think you and Randy are to smart for me to understand. Well nevertheless my nitrates are going down and my phosphates read 0 on an API kit. So either the trimming of the chaeto is working or the vodka is doing something. My nitrates were in the 40-60 range on the API kit for months and now they are in the 20 range. I am going to keep doing what I am and see if I still get positive results. BILL
Genetics
10/09/2008, 07:45 AM
Just because phosphates don't show up on a test kit doesn't mean they aren't there in an amount that is sufficient to reduce nitrates. :D
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13513084#post13513084 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Just because phosphates don't show up on a test kit doesn't mean they aren't there in an amount that is sufficient to reduce nitrates. :D
Now your talking my language.........:D :D :D
The way I look at it something positive is happening. I will continue to do what I am doing and see what happens.
The0wn4g3
10/09/2008, 12:36 PM
So basically, in simple terms, in order for vokda to be effective N and P must be present. But because it's impossible to truly lower P to 0, vodka dosing is always effective?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13514880#post13514880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The0wn4g3
So basically, in simple terms, in order for vokda to be effective N and P must be present. But because it's impossible to truly lower P to 0, vodka dosing is always effective? :) Somewhat but not always effective. When you add vodka,sugar or any other carbon source you are adding extra carbon which helps bacteria to thrive and take up the carbon and N and P. The big assumption is that your skimmer will export the bacteria and the elements they have absorbed faster and in an increased quantity at least greater than the carbon you are adding.
OK so I have been dosing 1ml every morning on the 300 gallon tank for the past 20 days. I did notice a slight decrease in nitrates but not much. My question do the experts think I should double the dose and do 2ML per morning for a few weeks and see what that does?
Randy Holmes-Farley
10/24/2008, 07:10 AM
So basically, in simple terms, in order for vokda to be effective N and P must be present. But because it's impossible to truly lower P to 0, vodka dosing is always effective?
Even in the absence of any significant P, nitrate could be reduced by anaerobic processes where nitrate is used as a source of oxygen to metabolize the organics in live rock or sand.
OK so I have been dosing 1ml every morning on the 300 gallon tank for the past 20 days. I did notice a slight decrease in nitrates but not much. My question do the experts think I should double the dose and do 2ML per morning for a few weeks and see what that does?
Yes, I'd double it. :)
fernandokng
10/24/2008, 07:25 AM
I stopped dosing yesterday (vodka + vinegar) (after 2 months). My nitrates never completely got to zero, but I was getting bacteria growth in my rocks and in some of my corals.
Is that common? Maybe I got unlucky with the strain of bacteria.
Genetics
10/24/2008, 07:30 AM
I agree with Randy. RBU1, I would go ahead and increase your dosing.
fernandokng, Did you have high nitrates to start with? What dose were you at? The growth are you talking about white string-like substances?
Randy Holmes-Farley
10/24/2008, 08:50 AM
I stopped dosing yesterday (vodka + vinegar) (after 2 months). My nitrates never completely got to zero, but I was getting bacteria growth in my rocks and in some of my corals.
That is a potential drawback that some people see. I personally would not worry about getting nitrate to 0 ppm. If you are below 10 ppm, that's is probably fine. :)
fernandokng
10/24/2008, 10:09 AM
Never had high nitrates to start with. Maybe around 10ppm on Salifert.
I did see some white stringy substance, but that wasn't my main concern.
I had these light greenish residue (It sorted looked like chunky film algea, but I really doubt it was) growing on the rocks.
I don't even know how to explain it, except it was light faded green, it was in small areas on the rocks, and in very small chunks.
I had stopped a for a few days before, and then it slowly subsided until I started dosing again. (and it grew back on the same spot)
Randy Holmes-Farley
10/24/2008, 12:11 PM
Why are you dosing it?
hankclaussen
10/24/2008, 12:14 PM
I would guess that the chaeto trim helped some at least, as I had the same numbers results when I did the same thing a couple years ago. Chaeto really needs to be kept rolling in my opinion.
I like this multifaceted approach theory though too!
OK from the advice of the pro's I will increase my dose tomorrow morning from 1ml to 2ml. Lets see what happens.
fernandokng
10/25/2008, 10:09 AM
Sorry Randy, not quite sure what you meant...
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13612180#post13612180 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Why are you dosing it?
Randy Holmes-Farley
10/25/2008, 11:45 AM
Was the purpose of your plan to dose just to drop the 10 ppm nitrate to something lower?
How low did they get when you stopped due to visible bacterial growth?
fernandokng
10/25/2008, 12:37 PM
Yes, the plan was to lower it to 0 (or get it as close as possible)
The lowest I got on the nitrates side was 2, without water changes, GFO, or changes in my feeding habit.
OK been dosing 2 ML since Oct 25th. No more than normal on the algae growth. I am almost certain I see a drop in nitrates. Looks like it went from the 40 range down to the 20 range. It is so hard to tell those orange colors apart. I will stay with the 2ML for another couple weeks and see if it levels off at 20ppm on the nitrates. If it does I might try and go to 3ML.
boxfishpooalot
11/06/2008, 06:41 AM
I dose about 5 ml vodka of 80 proof per day and I can watch the phosphate and nitrate drop. Via a Hanna.
Also don't suppose that no phosphate means anything on a test kit, or any kit. Just because there is not phosphate available now it is always, and I mean always increasing in your tank. Take some sand and swirl it in a cup of tank water, let it sit a day, and measure the Po4. It will have increased. Same with No3.
Nothing in this universe stays constant, its either lessening or increasing. So we could say there is no such thing as zero.
pisces9397
11/06/2008, 09:22 AM
That's deep....Anyways, if vodka gets the job done would there be any good in using something like everclear, or is that overkill?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13691673#post13691673 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxfishpooalot
I dose about 5 ml vodka of 80 proof per day and I can watch the phosphate and nitrate drop. Via a Hanna.
Also don't suppose that no phosphate means anything on a test kit, or any kit. Just because there is not phosphate available now it is always, and I mean always increasing in your tank. Take some sand and swirl it in a cup of tank water, let it sit a day, and measure the Po4. It will have increased. Same with No3.
Nothing in this universe stays constant, its either lessening or increasing. So we could say there is no such thing as zero.
You dose 5ML in a 90 gallon tank?
The0wn4g3
11/06/2008, 01:32 PM
I'm dosing the sugar solution (should be about equal to vodka in carbon, etc.)
I started at .4mL per day, and I've increased to .7mL per day. I'm increasing by .1mL every 3 days, so I can keep an eye on how everything is reacting.
I'll probably increase the increments to +.1mL per day, as everything seems to be accepting the sugar just fine.
So far, my corals (especially SPS) have definitely increased in color. As for the hair algae, it's still growing, so no effect on that front so far.
OK been about a week since the increase from 1 ML to 2 ML. At first I was thinking the nitrates did go down. Now I am not sure they still look to be in the 30-40 range. This morning I increased the 2 ML to 3 ML. I will give that a week or so and see how the nitrates react. If they stay the same I will go to 4ML.
Does that sound like a good plan?
Randy Holmes-Farley
11/14/2008, 07:12 AM
Seems fine to me, but then again, it isn't my tank if anything goes wrong. :D
I know you said you had zero phosphate. You might be able to back off or stop the GFO, and that could even allow more depletion of the nitrate if phosphate is actually limiting bacterial growth. I don't know if that is likely to be the case, however.
The0wn4g3
11/14/2008, 09:03 AM
i'm up to 1mL a day of sugar solution. I definitely noticed a decrease in algae growth about a week ago when I was dosing .5mL. Now, however, with a .5mL increase the algae growth seems to be constant. A lot slower than it was, but not decreasing anymore.
So here's a few questions.
Should I refrigerate the sugar solution? I'm noticing some odd stringy looking gray matter developing in the solution. No idea what it is. Also, the container has sugar coating the lid and top of the sides. Could it be the sugar solution has lost potency over time?
Overall, I'm definitely going to continue dosing sure as I'm sure it increased growth and color of many of my corals. My duncans seem to be having a difficult time adjusting to the lower nutrient levels (polyps not fully opened) but they are improving.
Randy Holmes-Farley
11/14/2008, 09:25 AM
I would either refrigerate a sugar solution, or make it fresh each time. It will grow bacterial and fungi, and will degrade, yes.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13743908#post13743908 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Seems fine to me, but then again, it isn't my tank if anything goes wrong. :D
I know you said you had zero phosphate. You might be able to back off or stop the GFO, and that could even allow more depletion of the nitrate if phosphate is actually limiting bacterial growth. I don't know if that is likely to be the case, however.
Are you trying to scare me??????
I figured going slow like I am is the safest way to do it........
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13744754#post13744754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
Are you trying to scare me??????
I figured going slow like I am is the safest way to do it........ :) Just a note to say thanks for posting the detail of your vodka experience. It is helpful.
I am also trying to reduce nitrates form the 40ppm range , An additional chaetomorpha refugium and remote deep sand bed have been added.( I have lot's of room in the basement) Skimmer capacity has been doubled and I've added some ofSeachem's matrix media to the sumps.Depending on the results, after a few months I may try carbon dosing again as well and your experience will help.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13745033#post13745033 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
:) Just a note to say thanks for posting the detail of your vodka experience. It is helpful.
I am also trying to reduce nitrates form the 40ppm range , An additional chaetomorpha refugium and remote deep sand bed have been added.( I have lot's of room in the basement) Skimmer capacity has been doubled and I've added some ofSeachem's matrix media to the sumps.Depending on the results, after a few months I may try carbon dosing again as well and your experience will help.
No problem I don't mind at all. If you have any questiosn please post on here.
mmotown
11/17/2008, 11:52 AM
Guys let me ask you this question. I nmy vodka dosing I experience less polyp extension and I has a couple of corals to dry up on my an flake away. What was the cause of this?
What size tank and how much did you dose? Did you follow the directions here (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php)
The0wn4g3
11/17/2008, 03:45 PM
Good news here. Got my hands on some vodka, so now I can ditch the sugar solution. The sugar was working, but the ants sure did love finding it, and it seemed to go bad pretty quick.
I'm still working with 1mL a day (been about a week). My hair algae is still growing slowly though. I bought a lawnmower blenny last friday. I'm hoping he will eat some of the algae since my snails hermits and tang won't touch it...
I'm running a DAS EX-2 skimmer. I had to cut off one of the recirculating pumps because it was making waaaaay more bubbles. Is this normal from vodka? Not just pulling out more waste, but actually an increase in the maximum foam fractionation that can occur?
Randy Holmes-Farley
11/17/2008, 04:14 PM
Are you trying to scare me??????
I figured going slow like I am is the safest way to do it.....
:lol:
Just qualifying my statement in that I don't have a lot of experience determining such doses. But it was mostly sarcasm :D
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13764625#post13764625 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Are you trying to scare me??????
I figured going slow like I am is the safest way to do it.....
:lol:
Just qualifying my statement in that I don't have a lot of experience determining such doses. But it was mostly sarcasm :D
I was hoping that is what it was. I have noiced a recent increase in nasty skimate.:D
Genetics
11/17/2008, 05:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13763018#post13763018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmotown
Guys let me ask you this question. I nmy vodka dosing I experience less polyp extension and I has a couple of corals to dry up on my an flake away. What was the cause of this?
What do you mean by "flake away"?
RBU1 have you noticed anything yet with nitrates? Your slow increase is definitely admirable. Especially since most people want results ASAP.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13765291#post13765291 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
RBU1 have you noticed anything yet with nitrates? Your slow increase is definitely admirable. Especially since most people want results ASAP.
Thanks. I would rather take my time and do it slow. I have not tested since the up to 3ML but I have noticed an increase in skimmer output. I will check the nitrates soon.
jnohs
11/17/2008, 06:49 PM
sounds good. it does work. just dont dose more to remove more. it does not work like that. I over dosed my tank and nuked it. i put about 10 ml in and the next day bamm. so be carefull. I still use viniger. I think it is not as potent of a carbon sorce. so it is harder to over dose. i dont measure nitrates any more. I just add a little viniger once and a while when I notice my skimmer skimming less. I lot of people and I report a very thick and tons of foam from the skimmer.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13765774#post13765774 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnohs
sounds good. it does work. just dont dose more to remove more. it does not work like that. I over dosed my tank and nuked it. i put about 10 ml in and the next day bamm. so be carefull. I still use viniger. I think it is not as potent of a carbon sorce. so it is harder to over dose. i dont measure nitrates any more. I just add a little viniger once and a while when I notice my skimmer skimming less. I lot of people and I report a very thick and tons of foam from the skimmer.
Thanks for the heads up.
snapperface
11/18/2008, 05:06 PM
so when u dose vodka do u have to dose everyday or acan u dose it 5 days out of the week?
Genetics
11/18/2008, 10:32 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13772458#post13772458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snapperface
so when u dose vodka do u have to dose everyday or acan u dose it 5 days out of the week?
Interesting question. You could most-likely get away with dosing 5 days a week without any adverse effect.
I think daily dosing would keep a more constant level of bacteria.Skipping a day here and there might not do any harm.
Dyraxe
11/19/2008, 01:47 AM
Hello, I have a question about Vodka dosing and Cyano.
My tank is about 3 months old and my parameters are:
Cal 460ppm
Alk 9dkh
Mag 1350
Nitrates 0 on elos test kit
Phosphate 0 on elos test kit
Temp is 78-79
I dose 1.2ml of vodka a day
I have a 180 gallon BB SPS tank with a MSX300 skimmer
I use 4 sureflow modded maxi jet 1200 power heads with the large prop. on a wave maker. for my flow. and Dart for my return from sump.
As of recent I am noticing Cyano growing in areas of less flow which is very few and far between (not too many places without a lot of flow). Should I stop dosing vodka? dose more? feed less? both?
Does Vodka fuel/feed Cyano Bacteria as well as other bacteria?
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/Striknine1234/SN850511.jpg
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13775470#post13775470 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dyraxe
Hello, I have a question about Vodka dosing and Cyano.
My tank is about 3 months old and my parameters are:
Cal 460ppm
Alk 9dkh
Mag 1350
Nitrates 0 on elos test kit
Phosphate 0 on elos test kit
Temp is 78-79
I dose 1.2ml of vodka a day
I have a 180 gallon BB SPS tank with a MSX300 skimmer
I use 4 sureflow modded maxi jet 1200 power heads with the large prop. on a wave maker. for my flow. and Dart for my return from sump.
As of recent I am noticing Cyano growing in areas of less flow which is very few and far between (not too many places without a lot of flow). Should I stop dosing vodka? dose more? feed less? both?
Does Vodka fuel/feed Cyano Bacteria as well as other bacteria?
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn73/Striknine1234/SN850511.jpg
I will leave this question to the experts....Genetics!!! Randy!!!!
Randy Holmes-Farley
11/19/2008, 05:50 AM
As far as I know, most people do not see a decline in cyano when dosing vodka. I didn't when i experiemnted with it. As to whether it can make it worse, I'm not sure, but it may depend on what other export methods you have, and whether adding a carbon source that the cyano can use will help it take a larger portion of the available nutrients or not.
Dyraxe
11/19/2008, 10:32 AM
I do not run a refugium or any GFO. my only export is a 100micron filter sock changed when ever it clogs (about 3days), my msx300 skimmer, 20% water changes monthly, siphoning ditritus weekly, and I run carbon in a phosban reactor.
My carbon is a little old maybe 3 to 4 weeks old. I had bag of carbon break open before I started using the phosban reactor and I have a small amount under my skimmer stand. I need to remove because it has been there for 3 months is that bad? It is a small handful of carbon.
I have used Chemi clean before and it worked great but I would rather not use any treatments if I can get away with it. What do you think I should do?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13776837#post13776837 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dyraxe
I do not run a refugium or any GFO. my only export is a 100micron filter sock changed when ever it clogs (about 3days), my msx300 skimmer, 20% water changes monthly, siphoning ditritus weekly, and I run carbon in a phosban reactor.
My carbon is a little old maybe 3 to 4 weeks old. I had bag of carbon break open before I started using the phosban reactor and I have a small amount under my skimmer stand. I need to remove because it has been there for 3 months is that bad? It is a small handful of carbon.
I have used Chemi clean before and it worked great but I would rather not use any treatments if I can get away with it. What do you think I should do?
What are you trying to accomplish?
mmotown
11/19/2008, 01:08 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13763776#post13763776 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
What size tank and how much did you dose? Did you follow the directions here (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php)
yes I did. I dosed for a total water volume of 150 gals. my tank is 150
mmotown
11/19/2008, 01:14 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13765291#post13765291 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
What do you mean by "flake away"?
RBU1 have you noticed anything yet with nitrates? Your slow increase is definitely admirable. Especially since most people want results ASAP.
I had about two corals that lost PE and started to lose tissue and the tissue flaked away until I was left with just a skeleton
Genetics
11/19/2008, 01:23 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13777736#post13777736 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmotown
I had about two corals that lost PE and started to lose tissue and the tissue flaked away until I was left with just a skeleton
You wouldn't have happened to take pictures? I've heard of bleaching and the potential for what appears to be white band disease or slow RTN but not flaking...
Aqua Keepers
11/19/2008, 05:56 PM
Dyraxe, I wouldn't wait for the filter socks to get clogged to clean them out. As far as the Cyano, I would try to get more flow in those areas. Maybe add a sea swirl to your return. I'm not sure but I think that once carbon is full, it will start to leach back into the system. So, you might wanna get that taken care of.
rubinjb
11/19/2008, 10:43 PM
I have been dosing vodka for 8 weeks now on a 180 gal. tank. I started out with my nitrates at the 40 range. I started with .6ml and gradually increased per instructions and I am now at 4.1 ml. My nitrate is still at 40. It does not seem to be doing aything for me.
I do have an unhappy red hadonni that I've had for quite some time and after reading some of the posts on this forum I see that my desjardani tang is breathing pretty rapidly possibly due to the vodka? I don't know if the hadonni is unhappy because of the nitrate being high for so long or if the he doesn't like what is going on with the vodka.
Can anyone help me?? Thanks
Dyraxe
11/19/2008, 11:19 PM
Yeah I need to get that carbon out of my sump. It's been long enough that I put it off. I used a turkey baster and blew the Cyano of the rocks I will see if it grows back before I do anything else. The socks are only in my sump for 3 days tops sometimes less. Do you think I should swap them out everyday?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13779558#post13779558 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
Dyraxe, I wouldn't wait for the filter socks to get clogged to clean them out. As far as the Cyano, I would try to get more flow in those areas. Maybe add a sea swirl to your return. I'm not sure but I think that once carbon is full, it will start to leach back into the system. So, you might wanna get that taken care of.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13781337#post13781337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rubinjb
I have been dosing vodka for 8 weeks now on a 180 gal. tank. I started out with my nitrates at the 40 range. I started with .6ml and gradually increased per instructions and I am now at 4.1 ml. My nitrate is still at 40. It does not seem to be doing aything for me.
I do have an unhappy red hadonni that I've had for quite some time and after reading some of the posts on this forum I see that my desjardani tang is breathing pretty rapidly possibly due to the vodka? I don't know if the hadonni is unhappy because of the nitrate being high for so long or if the he doesn't like what is going on with the vodka.
Can anyone help me?? Thanks
If I were you I would stop the vodka. Hopefully you have a decent skimmer. Vodka will do something with the oxygen in the water. I did not think 4ml would do anything. But to be safe I would stop.
mmotown
11/20/2008, 07:44 AM
No I didn't take any pictures and yes those corals did bleach.
What do you guys think about a dinaitrator? I hate losing livestock and never get to see that piece mature. I don't mind spending the money to have a device take care of something once and for all.
Hey Bill, just saw this thread (I'm finally making the move over to RC full time now) and have been considering the same thing for the 180. How's your progress coming? Anything new on the nitrate and phosphate levels? Do you have any before and after pics? As I understand, vodka dosing helps bring out color too because of the better water quality, but that could just be bad info relayed on to me. :D
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13782588#post13782588 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by m0nk
Hey Bill, just saw this thread (I'm finally making the move over to RC full time now) and have been considering the same thing for the 180. How's your progress coming? Anything new on the nitrate and phosphate levels? Do you have any before and after pics? As I understand, vodka dosing helps bring out color too because of the better water quality, but that could just be bad info relayed on to me. :D
Hi Alex, Well as you read in the progress I have been increasing my dosage and am currently at 3ML. I am really not noticing a decrease in Nitrates. I am going to assume that eventually I will see a decrease when I get to the proper dosage amount just not sure if I want to keep increasing too much more. I have a sulfur denitrator on that tank also just not that much sulfur in it. I think I am going to increase the sulfur amount instead of adding more vodka. If you need a denitrator I know someone that makes them and charges a real good price. As far as the pics go I did not go into that much detail so I don't have any sorry. BILL
Richreef
11/20/2008, 09:01 AM
RBU1, with this dosage (3ml), do. you see any skimmate increase.. ?
thanks !!
Genetics
11/20/2008, 09:17 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13781337#post13781337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rubinjb
I have been dosing vodka for 8 weeks now on a 180 gal. tank. I started out with my nitrates at the 40 range. I started with .6ml and gradually increased per instructions and I am now at 4.1 ml. My nitrate is still at 40. It does not seem to be doing aything for me.
I do have an unhappy red hadonni that I've had for quite some time and after reading some of the posts on this forum I see that my desjardani tang is breathing pretty rapidly possibly due to the vodka? I don't know if the hadonni is unhappy because of the nitrate being high for so long or if the he doesn't like what is going on with the vodka.
Can anyone help me?? Thanks
I would suspend dosing if your fish seem to be having a negative reaction to it. I'm sorry to hear that the hadonni is having issues. My blue hadonni hasn't had a problem but I wouldn't risk such a beautiful specimen. What is your nitrate/phosphate readings on your tank currently?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13782737#post13782737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
Hi Alex, Well as you read in the progress I have been increasing my dosage and am currently at 3ML. I am really not noticing a decrease in Nitrates. I am going to assume that eventually I will see a decrease when I get to the proper dosage amount just not sure if I want to keep increasing too much more. I have a sulfur denitrator on that tank also just not that much sulfur in it. I think I am going to increase the sulfur amount instead of adding more vodka. If you need a denitrator I know someone that makes them and charges a real good price. As far as the pics go I did not go into that much detail so I don't have any sorry. BILL
Thanks, I only really see nitrates because I've been lazy with my water changes, only doing about 25g every 3 weeks... hopefully going this route will help too cause I've got the DSB, so I can just keep being lazy. :lol:
I'll keep watching though, in case you do decide to go higher with your dosing and if it has any affect.
Genetics
11/20/2008, 09:20 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13782484#post13782484 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmotown
No I didn't take any pictures and yes those corals did bleach.
What do you guys think about a dinaitrator? I hate losing livestock and never get to see that piece mature. I don't mind spending the money to have a device take care of something once and for all.
Denitrators are nice once they are setup and running properly.
lifeform
11/20/2008, 09:27 AM
Do you keep your vodka in the refrigerator? Thanks
mmotown
11/20/2008, 09:28 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13782937#post13782937 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Denitrators are nice once they are setup and running properly.
I guess dosing vodka is the alternative to not spending the money for another piece of equipment. I thing the denitrator is the route I am going to go.
I'm just starting week 12 and FINALLY my nitrates are almost zero! The tank started with nitrates at 25 and phos at .25 and in week 3 nitrates dropped to 10 and phos to .01 but they had been stuck there this entire time until this week. It does work, but you have to be patient, I didn't think I'd ever see it drop lower than 10. I have followed Genetics dosing schedule and it has paid off, but for awhile I thought it would never work. I'm glad I didn't get impatient and dose more than I should or just stop altogether thinking it doesn't work. I guess patience really does pay off with vodka.
Janna
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13782969#post13782969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JSM
I'm just starting week 12 and FINALLY my nitrates are almost zero! The tank started with nitrates at 25 and phos at .25 and in week 3 nitrates dropped to 10 and phos to .01 but they had been stuck there this entire time until this week. It does work, but you have to be patient, I didn't think I'd ever see it drop lower than 10. I have followed Genetics dosing schedule and it has paid off, but for awhile I thought it would never work. I'm glad I didn't get impatient and dose more than I should or just stop altogether thinking it doesn't work. I guess patience really does pay off with vodka.
Janna
GREAT .....If possible can you detail your dosing routine from the beginning. I am curious to see how it compares to what I am doing. Thanks
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13782820#post13782820 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Richreef
RBU1, with this dosage (3ml), do. you see any skimmate increase.. ?
thanks !!
Yes recently I have seen an increase in the amount in the cup. But still no decrease in nitrates.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13783029#post13783029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
GREAT .....If possible can you detail your dosing routine from the beginning. I am curious to see how it compares to what I am doing. Thanks
As am I. :D
RBU1,
I followed the dosing schedule for a 200g system. I dose around 4:30am and I put it all in at once, I know some people split the dose and do it am and pm. I'd have to go back and look at the chart but I think I started dosing with .6ml and I'm currently up to 7.1 but if I understand correctly, when I hit zero I cut the dose back to half of that. I was too scared to do anything other than follow the chart exactly. I noticed increased skimmate before I noticed any decrease in nutrients. I also noticed that some of the soft corals opened their polyps much bigger and have kept them open at night when they normally close them.
Janna
Genetics
11/20/2008, 10:06 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13782969#post13782969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JSM
I'm just starting week 12 and FINALLY my nitrates are almost zero! The tank started with nitrates at 25 and phos at .25 and in week 3 nitrates dropped to 10 and phos to .01 but they had been stuck there this entire time until this week. It does work, but you have to be patient, I didn't think I'd ever see it drop lower than 10. I have followed Genetics dosing schedule and it has paid off, but for awhile I thought it would never work. I'm glad I didn't get impatient and dose more than I should or just stop altogether thinking it doesn't work. I guess patience really does pay off with vodka.
Janna
I'm glad to hear that it finally kicked in and started dropping for you. :)
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13783170#post13783170 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JSM
RBU1,
I followed the dosing schedule for a 200g system. I dose around 4:30am and I put it all in at once, I know some people split the dose and do it am and pm. I'd have to go back and look at the chart but I think I started dosing with .6ml and I'm currently up to 7.1 but if I understand correctly, when I hit zero I cut the dose back to half of that. I was too scared to do anything other than follow the chart exactly. I noticed increased skimmate before I noticed any decrease in nutrients. I also noticed that some of the soft corals opened their polyps much bigger and have kept them open at night when they normally close them.
Janna
Thanks Janna, You followed the dosing routine from the RK magazine that I posted on this thread?
Yep, that's the dosing schedule I used.
Janna
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13783276#post13783276 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JSM
Yep, that's the dosing schedule I used.
Janna
OK thanks again. I am on the fence. Should I just continue my vodka dosing and keep slowly increasing till I notice the nitrates drop or should I add more sulfur to the denitrator?????
Thoughts????
Just out of curiosity, what are you using to measure your dosages?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13783320#post13783320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by m0nk
Just out of curiosity, what are you using to measure your dosages?
I use a syringe.
Thanks.... now that I think about it, I think I have one around from when I used to spot feed in my old 55g. :D
OK here is a recap.....Concept or Randy or anyone Comments please.
On Oct 1, I started dosing 1ML of Vodka in my 300 Gallon Tank
On Oct 25th, I went up to 2ML
On Nov 14th, I went to 3ML and am still there.
Originally I thought the nitrates were going down but now I think I am still in the 40ppm range. I recently have noticed an increase in the crap the skimmer is putting out. So last night I tested Nitrates and it appears to still be in the 40 range. It will be a week tomorrow that I went from 2ML to 3ML......Should I continue to raise 1ML weekly till I see a noticeable decrease????Or should I increase the sulfur in the denitrator?
Thanks for the input. BILL
If it were me and since you've come this far, I'd keep dosing and see what happens. I sure wanted to quit too but I didn't want to go back to spending so much money to get nitrates and phophates down and keep them down. I do like the fact that corals seem to like the bacteria in the water and have great polyp extension.
Janna
Paul_PSU
11/20/2008, 10:49 AM
I came from a FOWLR system and my nitrates were in the 180 range from the LR and sand. I used a Sulphur denitrator to get my nitrates down to 50 (took 6 months) and then from there the vodka dosing got it down to zero. I took the denitrator offline when I did the vodka dosing. On a 100 gal system I didn't bump anymore than .10 per week. I say maybe just bump it up .5 instead of 1 per week. With doing the vodka dosing and the denitrator you won't be able to tell what is causing the results you are getting, good or bad. JMO
I am at 1.6 ml per day now. My Nitrates continue to be zero but I am still getting the green algae on the glass so I'm working on the phosphates now. They show zero on the test kit but..we all know they aren't since I have algae on the glass.
The Saltman
11/20/2008, 11:02 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13744452#post13744452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I would either refrigerate a sugar solution, or make it fresh each time. It will grow bacterial and fungi, and will degrade, yes.
Randy, I am currently using a v/s/v mix. I keep the solution stored in a plastic container. Should I be refrigerating this?
The Saltman
11/20/2008, 11:05 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13783383#post13783383 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
OK here is a recap.....Concept or Randy or anyone Comments please.
On Oct 1, I started dosing 1ML of Vodka in my 300 Gallon Tank
On Oct 25th, I went up to 2ML
On Nov 14th, I went to 3ML and am still there.
Originally I thought the nitrates were going down but now I think I am still in the 40ppm range. I recently have noticed an increase in the crap the skimmer is putting out. So last night I tested Nitrates and it appears to still be in the 40 range. It will be a week tomorrow that I went from 2ML to 3ML......Should I continue to raise 1ML weekly till I see a noticeable decrease????Or should I increase the sulfur in the denitrator?
Thanks for the input. BILL
I am in the same boat. My nitrates are 10 and my phosphate is reading undetectable, but I know there is phosphate present. I am in my 3rd week of dosing also and have noticed a significant increase in skimmer production, but nitrates have not moved. I am currently at a 3ml dose in my 210 system. Next week I will go up to 3.5ml and see what happens.
fred fishstone
11/20/2008, 01:09 PM
Is the increase in skimmer production a result of more nutrients being in the system because of the added carbon, or are we removing more of the nutrients that were already there?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13784303#post13784303 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fred fishstone
Is the increase in skimmer production a result of more nutrients being in the system because of the added carbon, or are we removing more of the nutrients that were already there? :) Good question. I don't think anyone knows if even very aggressive skimming will prevent the buildup of organics tied to carbon dosing.
hankclaussen
11/20/2008, 05:37 PM
Is anyone here that is doing the vodka dosing also using a RDSB at all? I am interested in the polyp extension suggested by JSM, but I acheived 0 nitrates on a 30 gallon system by adding a RDSB.
I would guess that carbon dosing would be risky if anything for me. Thoughts?
Here are the details of my RDSB:
1 Started w/ 20 nitrates
2 Setup the RDSB
3 Had a leak so it sat 18 hours with no flow
4 Got it running again and tested nitrate 24hrs later =0
5 No nitrate since
6 very little algae growth, but cannot detect phos...
Paul_PSU
11/20/2008, 06:41 PM
I had an RDSB before carbon dosing and it did not work that well for me. I had it running for 3 months. I am surprised by the fact that your nitrates went from 20 to 0 in 24 hrs. Every thing I have read says the RDSB takes about 30 days to get seeded and start bringing down the nitrates.
The0wn4g3
11/20/2008, 07:41 PM
I would serious doubt nitrates can be reduced from 20 to 0 in 24 hours with or without a RDSB. I'd say that was a false test.
If you want to find out what will happen, trying dosing .1mL/25 gal and see if there is any improvement to polyp extension. I was dosing .4mL/day in my 100 and saw a noticeable improvement in polyp extension, with no change in algae growth. Now I'm dosing 1.5mL/day. Still improved polyp extension, and there seems to be a decrease in algae growth.
After almost a week of dosing vodka, I'm starting to think the sugar was more effective. I'm going to give it another week and see what happens. I was getting much more skimmate production while dosing the sugar, but not so much with the vodka.
Paul_PSU
11/20/2008, 08:49 PM
I have a 100gal system also and started with the schedule you did but started with just vodka and have switched to vsv. I just bumped up to 1.6 ml per day and hoping to see a reduction in algae on the glass. I am cleaning the glass once per day, but honestly not as much as I did before. I am shooting to have to clean the glass once per week. I got the nitrate reduction with just vodka but still had the algae on the glass and that was why I changed to vsv. I am also dosing kalk and have heard that it helps to reduce phosphates.
Aqua Keepers
11/20/2008, 10:47 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13784303#post13784303 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fred fishstone
Is the increase in skimmer production a result of more nutrients being in the system because of the added carbon, or are we removing more of the nutrients that were already there?
As far as I know, you are not adding any nutrients by dosing carbon. The increase in skimmer production is a result of you pulling out the bacteria that has consumed the nutrients that were already there. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Carbon dosing does not add nitrogen or phosphorous,but the carbon is a source for organics as far as I know.
While carbon dosing is likely by some accounts to spur bacterial growth to a point where the uptake of nitrate and phosphate along with the carbon may result in phosphate and nitrate reduction, there is no certainty that the skimmer efficiency will increase to export all of the additional carbon that is dosed or the increased organics which can be harmful,particularly to corals. Skimming may not be very efficient in exporting them and assuming it will be may be erroneous.
As far as I'm concerned this risk along with the unknown regarding wether the additional bacteria that may grow in a specific aquarium are in fact beneficial, benign or harmful give pause when I reach for the vodka bottle ,sugar jar vinegar or other carbon driven nutrient reducers.
I did dose Vodka at 4ml for about 500g a couple of years ago for a period of 4 months with no discernable ill effect and a perceived reduction in nuisance algae.I stopped and now use more macroalgae refugia and a remote deep sand bed and gfo.
I look forward to learning more about carbon dosing methods and their benefits and/or pitfalls and the anecdotal experiences of others.
OK I went up to 3.5ML this morning.....I will test nitrates in a couple days and will continue to raise .5ML per week till I notice a decrease in nitrates. I will keep everyone posted. BILL
hankclaussen
11/21/2008, 07:49 AM
Definitely not a false test, it has tested 0 for 9 days and the kit still reads 20-40 on the other tank. Also had it verified by LFS, I was surprised too but think that the dead time did it.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13786705#post13786705 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The0wn4g3
I would serious doubt nitrates can be reduced from 20 to 0 in 24 hours with or without a RDSB. I'd say that was a false test.
If you want to find out what will happen, trying dosing .1mL/25 gal and see if there is any improvement to polyp extension. I was dosing .4mL/day in my 100 and saw a noticeable improvement in polyp extension, with no change in algae growth. Now I'm dosing 1.5mL/day. Still improved polyp extension, and there seems to be a decrease in algae growth.
After almost a week of dosing vodka, I'm starting to think the sugar was more effective. I'm going to give it another week and see what happens. I was getting much more skimmate production while dosing the sugar, but not so much with the vodka.
Well if you had a leak, I assume a good deal of the water was changed which would account for nutrient reduction.
hankclaussen
11/21/2008, 08:54 AM
It is still at 0 after 9 days. It doesn't mater at this point if I did a 100% change, the residual of daily feeding would be back.
Anyway, back to topic... 80 proof carbon!
ginger7286
11/21/2008, 09:33 AM
I currently dose my 125 reef daily with Vodka. You have to start with a small dose then weekly (after testing) adjust your dose until you find the dose that will maintain your nitrates where you want them without compromising creatures in your tank. I found that not only did my nitratres fall (currently holding at about 10 ppm) over a period of several weeks (about 12) but my water is clearer and my skimmer is now not skimming half the crud it used to. I still performed weekly water changes and I still do. I also found that my algae problem is under control and I know in the next several weeks I'll have to look in the dictionary for the definition of algae. My refugium has even cleared up. I still add the vodka for maintenance twice daily. It has made a huge difference in the amount of time I spend cleaning my tank every week. Good Luck. I'm not at home right now but check with past issues of reef central. I downloaded an article that explains how to vodka dose safely.
ginger7286
11/21/2008, 06:20 PM
If anyone wishes to read into this for further info...
www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008/nftt/index.php
a lot of information and you can always read more for different views. By the way my maintenace dose is 1.4 ml twice a day. I add it to my refugium instead of adding it directly to my tank.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13792589#post13792589 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ginger7286
If anyone wishes to read into this for further info...
www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008/nftt/index.php
a lot of information and you can always read more for different views. By the way my maintenace dose is 1.4 ml twice a day. I add it to my refugium instead of adding it directly to my tank.
Thanks but the link does not work. Is it the same one I posted from RK magazine?
OK after 6 days at the 3.5ML mark I don't notice a difference in the nitrate reading. Went to 4ML today. Still notice an increase in skimmer production but no drop in nitrates.
Randy Holmes-Farley
11/27/2008, 08:03 AM
Does that kit read 0 ppm nitrate, or close to it, on new salt water?
Paul_PSU
11/27/2008, 08:04 AM
I have been at zero nitrtates for a few months but have continued to bump up the vsv dose by .2ml to get rid of the phosphates. I am at 1.8ml on a total system vol of 105 gals. 1.4ml was my maintenance dose when I hit zero nitrates. I wasn't happy with still getting the green film on the glass daily so I started bumping it up .2ml these past two weeks. Since I have went from 1.4ml up to 1.8ml there is a noticeable decrease on the green film algae on the glass. I clean it every other day instead of daily and even then it is only a couple small patches.
unbreakable
11/27/2008, 08:30 AM
RBU1, I was stuck at 20ppm in my 75g for a couple a long time dosing 5 ml to 6ml of vodka a day. Skimmer was skimming okay but nitrates never dropped. I switched over to sugar and it helped drop nitrates down to "0 ppm" within a week
and I had gotten up to 5ml of vodka thinking the more I added that it would reduce nitrates, but it never happened
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13827675#post13827675 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Does that kit read 0 ppm nitrate, or close to it, on new salt water?
Hi Randy,
Never tried it on new water but it does read 0 on my 75 gallon tank that has a sulfur denitrator on it.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13827765#post13827765 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by unbreakable
RBU1, I was stuck at 20ppm in my 75g for a couple a long time dosing 5 ml to 6ml of vodka a day. Skimmer was skimming okay but nitrates never dropped. I switched over to sugar and it helped drop nitrates down to "0 ppm" within a week
and I had gotten up to 5ml of vodka thinking the more I added that it would reduce nitrates, but it never happened
Interesting.....How do you dose the sugar and how much do you use?
Paul_PSU
11/27/2008, 09:41 AM
Here is the mixture I use for vsv dosing:
http://glassbox-design.com/2008/vsv-total-organic-carbon-in-the-reef-aquarium/
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13828140#post13828140 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul_PSU
Here is the mixture I use for vsv dosing:
http://glassbox-design.com/2008/vsv-total-organic-carbon-in-the-reef-aquarium/
Thanks.....Not sure if I should try it or stick with the vodka......
What do you think Randy, genetics????
Stick with the Vodka and keep increasing .5ml weekly?
or
Try the other method and start over????
Genetics
11/28/2008, 12:04 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13827569#post13827569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RBU1
OK after 6 days at the 3.5ML mark I don't notice a difference in the nitrate reading. Went to 4ML today. Still notice an increase in skimmer production but no drop in nitrates.
Sounds like you are getting close... I would bump it up slightly next week to 4.5mL daily. I would suspect you should start to see a drop in nitrates soon.
As for the other methods. They all work, there is no one best method. But as you said, you would need to start over.
The Saltman
11/28/2008, 02:48 PM
I have been dosing the v/s/v mixture for about 5 weeks now and I must say that I'm really impressed to what is happening. My nitrates and phosphate have dropped to undetectable. I have also gone from cleaning the glass daily to only once a week. My skimmer produces about 3-4x more daily skimmate and is dirtier than ever. I have some prodibio biodigest on the way and will be adding that also every 15 days pretty soon. I have noticed this method to have nothing but positive effects on my reef and will continue to dose daily.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13832354#post13832354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Sounds like you are getting close... I would bump it up slightly next week to 4.5mL daily. I would suspect you should start to see a drop in nitrates soon.
As for the other methods. They all work, there is no one best method. But as you said, you would need to start over.
Genetics.....So you think I should continue at the 4ML rate till when? I just went from 3.5 to 4 yesterday. When do you think I should go to 4.5ML? Thanks for your help. BILL
Genetics
11/28/2008, 04:09 PM
I would give it a week before stepping up again. With the increased skimmer production you should start to see a decrease soon.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13835040#post13835040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
I would give it a week before stepping up again. With the increased skimmer production you should start to see a decrease soon.
Thanks.
OK tested nitrates last night. Seems the orange color has lightened up a little........I really have a hard time telling between the oranges on those API kits. So I am going to stick with the 4ML till Friday then I will go to 4.5ML.
OK up to 4.5ML today........Seems like I still am seeing a nice increase in skimmer production. Just not seeing that nice drop in nitrates yet. Will keep the thread posted. BILL
Genetics
12/05/2008, 09:02 AM
The API test kit is still turning the same color? At this point does it seem like it is taking longer to turn this color?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13879619#post13879619 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
The API test kit is still turning the same color? At this point does it seem like it is taking longer to turn this color?
No I would say that it is a little lighter orange. Just not a big noticeable difference between the shades.
OK still looking the same in my opinion. Looking between 20-40 on the color chart. At a suggestion by the maker of my sulfur denitrator I increased the flow rate on the denitrator from about 30 drips a minute to about 80 drips a minute. He feels that because the PH coming out of the denitrator is lower than the tank somthing is happening. So I did that last night and tested this morning and still no change.......So I also increased my vodka to 5ML. Any thoughts???? Suggestions???? I may just stick with the 5ML and now start to add more sulfur to the denitrator.
Paul_PSU
12/12/2008, 06:34 AM
I don't know if it makes any difference or not. I ran a sulfur denitrator to get my Nitrates from about 180 down to around 50-40. I then took the denitrator offline and started dosing vodka. I did not do them at the same time. I am the farthest thing from a chemist(I thought Au was for Australia) so I wouldn't know. When I ran the denitrator, it seemed like I hit a wall and could not get my nitrates below that. I didn't get them down to zero until I started dosing vodka. Maybe Genetics or even Randy would have some thoughts on this. Just thinking out loud..:D
Also when you increased the flow on your denitrator was the effluent still reading zero?
Randy Holmes-Farley
12/12/2008, 08:30 AM
When I ran the denitrator, it seemed like I hit a wall and could not get my nitrates below that.
Depending on the flow through the denitrator and how effective it was in each pass, you may have just reached a plateau where it was taking out nitrate that was just about balanced with the input from foods. :)
Or maybe it was releasing some nitrite that was giving false high nitrate readings in the tank.
Ever take any measurements of the effluent?
Paul_PSU
12/12/2008, 08:46 AM
Yes my effluent was like 5 for Nitrates but my tank as still in the 40-50 range. In all fairness I was impatient and the denitrator would have most likely taken it down the rest of the way(it took it from 180 down to 40-50 in two months). I had serious issues in my tank since I came from a FOWLR system and used treated tap water (:eek2: ) My dsb and rocks jut kept leaching it into my tank. At that time I only had one purple tang in my tank and fed VERY lightly. Do you think that running the denitrator at the same time as vodka dosing is OK or will one affect the other? For nutrient control the only thing I dose now is vodka and Biodigest.
Well last night I increased the amount of sulfur in the denitrator. I tested this morning and the water coming from the denitrator does look a little lighter orange. I will test again when I get home from work. Also the PH from the denitrator is lower than the tank and from what I was told that means it is working.
I am also continuing to dose the vodka and am at 5ML right now.
desperate
12/14/2008, 12:37 PM
hi all any up dates ??
radiata
12/14/2008, 08:07 PM
Anyone know if sulphates produced by a sulfur denitrator have any effect on nitrate testing? I've been real happy with my DIY sulfur denitrator (got nitrates in a 350G (net) system down to under 10 ppm from over 30 in two months). But the effluent has often tested significantly higher than the tank water. Any thoughts on why this might happen?
museumguy
12/14/2008, 11:50 PM
What a great thread! Genetics, Randy, TMZ and especially RBU1, as well as everyone else thanks for all the posts, incredibly educational.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13943540#post13943540 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by radiata
Anyone know if sulphates produced by a sulfur denitrator have any effect on nitrate testing? I've been real happy with my DIY sulfur denitrator (got nitrates in a 350G (net) system down to under 10 ppm from over 30 in two months). But the effluent has often tested significantly higher than the tank water. Any thoughts on why this might happen? Perhaps there is too much flow in/out of the reactor providing oxygen and supporting more nitrifiction than denitrification.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13943540#post13943540 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by radiata
Anyone know if sulphates produced by a sulfur denitrator have any effect on nitrate testing? I've been real happy with my DIY sulfur denitrator (got nitrates in a 350G (net) system down to under 10 ppm from over 30 in two months). But the effluent has often tested significantly higher than the tank water. Any thoughts on why this might happen?
You should test 0 from the denitrator. Take a test of the PH in your tank and the PH coming from the denitrator. If the PH from the denitrator is lower than the tank increase the flow from the denitrator. If the PH and the tank are the same slow down the flow from the denitrator.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13945021#post13945021 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by museumguy
What a great thread! Genetics, Randy, TMZ and especially RBU1, as well as everyone else thanks for all the posts, incredibly educational.
Thanks. I hope it helps.
I am still looking the same with the nitrate reasing. I tested my water upstairs to make sure the test kit was working. My tank upstairs tested 0 on nitrates so I know the kit is working.
I am still at the 5ml of vodka and increased the amount of sulfur in the denitrator. I basically doubled what was in the denitrator. I have not noticed a significant change in the nitrates since I added the sulfur. Every morning I test nitrates from the denitrator and PH from the tank and Denitrator. If my PH coming from the denitrator is lower than the tank I have been increasing flow from the denitrator. Hopefully the denitrator will start to kick in and get them down. I will be happy with 10ppm.
Genetics......Randy........and comments???
Randy Holmes-Farley
12/15/2008, 07:04 AM
Anyone know if sulphates produced by a sulfur denitrator have any effect on nitrate testing?
No. Seawater naturally has 2,700 ppm of sulfate, so a small addition on top of that is not significant.
What could mess up some kits is if there is nitrite produced in the reactor. Some kits will detect a little nitrite as a lot of nitrate.
Randy........and comments???
Have you tested your effluent?
What daily volume is run through it, roughly?
Hi Randy,
I have tested the water coming from the denitrator. The nitrate reading is the same as the tank 20-40 range. The PH reading had up till today been lower than the tank. This morning I tested PH and the denitrator was lower than the tank so I increased the flow coming from the denitrator. When I got home from work I tested again and now the PH reading was the same as the tank and the nitrates were also the same as the tank so I lowered the flow again. I will leave it that way for a couple days and see what I get.
I would not even be able to guess how much flow is coming from the denitrator.
Randy Holmes-Farley
12/15/2008, 07:56 PM
Does the manufacturer give directions on how to adjust it? I'd think that if it is set too fast, that little denitrification will take place.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13950638#post13950638 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Does the manufacturer give directions on how to adjust it? I'd think that if it is set too fast, that little denitrification will take place.
Well the manufactuerer is a hobiest that started making acrylic things on the side. I talk to him on a daily basis and he is trying to help me thru getting this dialed in. He is the one that told me if the PH is lower than the tank coming form the denitrator than increase the rate. I think I just increased it to much. I dialed it back down to like a fast drip. I will test PH again in the morning and see what I get. I hope this thing kicks in soon. I really do not want to keep increasing the vodka.
Randy Holmes-Farley
12/16/2008, 05:14 AM
OK. The low pH does indicate it is working. :)
Paul_PSU
12/16/2008, 05:37 AM
FWIW I used one of these denitrators: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1400576
There is tons of good info on adjusting and running them there.
takayan
12/16/2008, 03:59 PM
It might be different question, but I just post my question here.
I am running Non-Photosynthetic Corals tank. I fed a lot, so I have too high Nitrate and Phosphate. So, I am thinking to dose Vodka to reduce these nutrients. The tank does not have any lights, but is Vodka dosing still worked? Or VSV method requires strong light? BTW, I have skimmer.
Randy Holmes-Farley
12/16/2008, 04:23 PM
No lighting is necessary to drive bacterial growth and nutrient export by carbon dosing. A skimmer is necessary, however, IMO.
takayan
12/17/2008, 03:15 PM
Thank you, Randy!
ejreyes6
12/17/2008, 07:26 PM
question I have been dosing vodka 80 proof for about 3 1/2 weeks. dosing 2ml a day split morning and afternoon. My nitrates are undetectable but my po3 are .20 . Should I continue going up on the dosing.
Do I have to have both nitrates and phosphate to dose vodka?
My hair algae is mostly gone. But still have some red slime.
144g half round by the way
Genetics
12/17/2008, 07:32 PM
The red slime will most-likely be unaffected by the vodka dosing. If the hair algae is gone and you still have phosphates you can always try running GFO to bring it down.
ejreyes6
12/17/2008, 07:47 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13965398#post13965398 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
The red slime will most-likely be unaffected by the vodka dosing. If the hair algae is gone and you still have phosphates you can always try running GFO to bring it down.
I agree but rowa gets expensive when it's exhausted in 5 to 6 days. I have been blowing my rock daily stir up the sand (2" sand bed) and changing filter socks daily for about 2 months.
I have heard that Kalkwasser will bond with phosphates. Does anybody have experience with this.
OK I have decided to bag the vodka dosing and just use the denitrator. I am curious to see if the vodka can in anyway be affecting the sulfur denitrator. I recently added more sulfur to the denitrator so we will see what happens.
melev
12/18/2008, 01:11 AM
I've been dosing Vodka for the past five months. During that period, there were a few times that I did dose Blue Life's Phosphate Control to kick it down to 0, but that was maybe 3 times in 5 months. Phosphates didn't rise like they have in the past, and I'd attribute that to the vodka dosing.
I've not run any GFO the entire time.
Nitrates have meandered up and down during the dosing, and seem to be around 20ppm as of this week. I'm currently dosing 10ml per day, and plan to increase it to 10.5ml next week.
I'd guess I've done four water changes in the 5 months, although I usually do one 55g change every month.
Here are my water parms for the year.
http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/2008_parms.jpg
Marc, nice informaqtion, Thanks. Your dose is 10ml fopr a total volume of 430gallons,correct?
melev
12/18/2008, 02:39 PM
Actually far less. I tend to look at the system volume of maybe 340g (280g reef, 80g in the sump, 20g angled tank), but using the math recommended in the vodka article, I came up with 255g of real water.
I <i>thought</i> 6ml was my magic number and stopped testing nitrates for over 6 weeks, thinking it was going to simply drop quietly while I dosed that number daily, but when I finally took the test, NO3 had risen. Surprised, I resumed the .5 ml increase each week and that is why next week will be 10.5ml per day.
Genetics told me 10ml was his number at one point, so I still feel that I'm in the ballpark.
The tank does have a little bit of cyano in a couple of spots, but it hasn't gone into a full bloom during the five months of dosing. The angled tank has an ugly patch of it, but that particular tank is dosed with extra food for the acans and ricordia. It's tricky finding that balance of what you can feed and not create a nuisance.
Here's a picture of my tank from a few days ago.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/08/12/fts_121408.jpg
Genetics
12/18/2008, 09:34 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13965494#post13965494 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ejreyes6
I agree but rowa gets expensive when it's exhausted in 5 to 6 days. I have been blowing my rock daily stir up the sand (2" sand bed) and changing filter socks daily for about 2 months.
I have heard that Kalkwasser will bond with phosphates. Does anybody have experience with this.
If you have phosphates of 0.2ppm then Rowa should be good for a few more days than just 5. I don't think kalkwasser is going to be the answer to your prayers since it is calcium hydroxide and will dissolve quickly in water.
Melev, why won't your nitrates just go away!
melev
12/18/2008, 09:57 PM
Hey, I blame the test kits, my lack of changing water, the fact that my sand isn't deeper, my overfeeding, and global warming. :D
Marc, Thanks again for the information.
I agree it's hard running a mixed reef with well fed fish and corals f and keeping PO4 and NO3 at bay.
I've recently added a second asm 4x skimmer to my 550-600 system, along with another bin of chaetomorpha(50g total) and a 30g remote deep sand bed . It's been about 3 weeks since the additions and NO3 is still around 30-40ppm. Phosphate is around .1 with gfo. Next step for me may be vodka or a sufur denitrator, maybe even occasional lanthanum chloride.
Great looking tank ,thanks for sharing the pictures. I really like the natural look of it and the mix of corals.
My system and some of my tanks are tanks in this thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1470923
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13965494#post13965494 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ejreyes6
I agree but rowa gets expensive when it's exhausted in 5 to 6 days. I have been blowing my rock daily stir up the sand (2" sand bed) and changing filter socks daily for about 2 months.
I have heard that Kalkwasser will bond with phosphates. Does anybody have experience with this. :) I've been dosing klakwasser in my system at a rate of about 1 gallon per day of fully saturated klakwasse per hundred gallons. It may precipitate some phosphate and it is reasonable to think it might but it has not been proven to do so. In my case I need to use chaetomoprpha refugia and gfo to get phosphate under control.
Beckly
12/19/2008, 03:32 PM
http://glassbox-design.com/2008/achieved-through-observation-and-experimentation/
Very interesting theory about bacteria and how this mix of vinegar vodka and sugar feed all types and the addition of prodibio bio digest.
NCNBilly
12/20/2008, 06:36 PM
Any updates Bill? I had an old test kit reading zero nitrates, replaced by a new one and find I have over 50. I've been wondering why I'm getting algae growth, figured it was something else...
I'm on day one, just dosed .4ml in my 75G (calculated ~110 total gallons, but for simplicty am dosing as if it's 100). I have a RDSB in a 32G Brute trashcan, with chaeto growing above it. I've never had much in the way of chaeto growth, but I sure get every other kind of algae. I was thinking of supplementing Iron to see if that's limiting the growth, but I'd rather have a test kit tell me I'm low first.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13985050#post13985050 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NCNBilly
Any updates Bill? I had an old test kit reading zero nitrates, replaced by a new one and find I have over 50. I've been wondering why I'm getting algae growth, figured it was something else...
I'm on day one, just dosed .4ml in my 75G (calculated ~110 total gallons, but for simplicty am dosing as if it's 100). I have a RDSB in a 32G Brute trashcan, with chaeto growing above it. I've never had much in the way of chaeto growth, but I sure get every other kind of algae. I was thinking of supplementing Iron to see if that's limiting the growth, but I'd rather have a test kit tell me I'm low first.
Not really. I am no longer dosing vodka. I added more sulfur to the denitrator and I am seeing what that does. I was up to 5ML of vodka and saw really no difference in the nitrates. Good luck with your dosing. If you need a sulfur denitrator the person that made mine is real reasonable. Send me a PM if you would like his info. BILL
Hey Guys.
I just found this thread and I am doing something similar.
I have always been a fan of not relying on any one method to do anything in this hobby. Its all too often that equipment or processes can fail. So in that, I started dosing vodka a week ago after noticing that my tank gets cloudy after a heavy feeding. I have also been very unhappy with skimmate production from my Deltec along with rapid cheato growth.
I do run carbon & GFO full time along with a RDSB and two seperate areas for cheato growth & I do weekly 10% water changes. To say I subscribe to all methods of filtration isn't too far off :) . Again, I like what diversity can bring to the table. If one system fails or has an issue there are other stages that can help take up the slack.
Before dosing vodka I had zero nitrates and low phosphates (I haven't taken a water sample to a colorimeter yet).
One week in I have noticed a marked increase in skimmate production. In months prior I have consistantly seen bubbles popping in the neck of the collection cup and a watery tea color skimmate collected. Since moving from .5ml per day to my 1ml per day dosage I now have the "volcano" of bubbles (see photo). I wished I had taken a picture of skimmate production in months past to show the increase, I am very impressed with it.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h187/cham_01/Reef2583.jpg
Overall, my goal in carbon dosing is to help increase export as another method of filtration added to my inventory. I am not targeting N or P specifically other than enhancing their removal. Like Randy, I'm watching my tank and macro for indicators on what to do. P04 testing in very low levels seems to be difficult and sometimes unreliable.
fernandokng
01/04/2009, 05:03 PM
Been dosing for about 2 - 3 months now, but I can't seem to get rid of this brownish film that has been recently growing on my sps corals and overflow. I didn't have this issue when I started on vodka dosing. Everything was super clean after 1 month.
I don't think it's the bacteria, but maybe algae. Perhaps I'm hitting the Phosphate limitation?
Genetics
01/04/2009, 08:43 PM
Do you have a picture of this brownish film? You could try running a bit of GFO and see if that fixes the issue.
fernandokng
01/05/2009, 08:36 AM
Yeah, I'll try taking some pics. I'm running GFO, but maybe perhaps I've exhausted? I'll make the change tonight.
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