What full size angel can be kept in a 120?

[michellejy]

I'm in the process of setting up a 120 gallon reef tank with a 40 gallon sump, and I'm still in the planning stages for livestock. I would really like to eventually have both a flame angel and full sized angel in my tank.

So first of all, is it okay to have two types of angels in a 120 if one is a dwarf?

Second, what type of angel would you recommend as being at least generally reef safe?

Thanks so much.

[BangkokMatt]

If by full sized you mean one of the large angels then a 120g isn't going to be big enough.
For a 120g I would recommend Genicanthus. They are also reef safe (as far as angels go)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1284946&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

[reefman8471]

As far as size goes you could put a Majestic Angelfish (Pomacanthus navarchus) or a Rock Beauty (Holocanthus tricolor). These fish only get about 10 inches max. Both are capable of eating corals and sometimes they do but I have had success with my Majestic in a reef tank with stonies and clams. The Rock Beauty may be alright but I think is more of a risk because they are difficult to get to feed on prepared food.

James

[BangkokMatt]

A 10 inch fish in a 120g isn't going to be happy. I certainly wouldn't add a fish which can potentially reach that size.

[michellejy]

I meant not a dwarf, but I wasn't sure exactly how to word that.

[Vi3tKid420]

any angel, doesnt matter as long as it has enough swimming space. more rocks in sump than tank

[Kahuna Tuna]

I wouldn't do any of the Pomacanthus or Holacanthus angels in a 120, I have a 5 inch majestic (one of the smallest of these two genus) in a 180 and he is already getting aggressive towards tankmates. There are quite a few "large" angels that would do fine in a 120, the regal, goldflake, flagfin, meridithi, singapore, poma, griffiths, bluespotted, bluestriped and any of the Genicanthus should be fine in this system. For a tank that size I would probably do a Genicanthus as these are the most reef safe angels. The Red Sea regal is probably your next best bet for size and reef safeness but these fish are very touchy. 0

Any of the smaller angels listed above would generally be fine with a dwarf angel tankmate. The holacanthus are generally considered the most destructive in a reef with the pomacanthus a close second.

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13498577#post13498577 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kahuna Tuna
I wouldn't do any of the Pomacanthus or Holacanthus angels in a 120, I have a 5 inch majestic (one of the smallest of these two genus) in a 180 and he is already getting aggressive towards tankmates. There are quite a few "large" angels that would do fine in a 120, the regal, goldflake, flagfin, meridithi, singapore, poma, griffiths, bluespotted, bluestriped and any of the Genicanthus should be fine in this system. For a tank that size I would probably do a Genicanthus as these are the most reef safe angels. The Red Sea regal is probably your next best bet for size and reef safeness but these fish are very touchy. 0

Any of the smaller angels listed above would generally be fine with a dwarf angel tankmate. The holacanthus are generally considered the most destructive in a reef with the pomacanthus a close second.

That's a lot more options than I expected. Thank you. :)

[Kahuna Tuna]

You are quite welcome. I also meant to ask about other tankmates and corals you plan to keep as some species of angels can get quite territorial.

[mrwilson]

Piggybacking on Kahuna's point, I'd add that you should also think carefully about the order in which you add inhabitants if you plan to add any angel. Many of them are pretty rough on newcomers if they're already established. My Potter's angel, for instance, is usually the most aggressive when I add new fish to my 115. If I could do it over again, I'd probably add the angel last.

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13499790#post13499790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kahuna Tuna
You are quite welcome. I also meant to ask about other tankmates and corals you plan to keep as some species of angels can get quite territorial.

My wish list is:
mandarin
pair of black & white ocellaris clowns or pair of gold striped maroon clowns (I prefer the black & white, and my husband prefers the GSM. Sometimes I have to humor him so he doesn't flip about how much all of this costs. :lol: )
hippo tang
yellow tang
flame angel
larger angel
possibly a gramma or firefish as well

Please ignore any typos since I have a 19 month old climbing on me while I type. :rollface:

[agreeive?fish]

Please ignore any typos since I have a 19 month old climbing on me while I type.

nope you have to have 3 little munchkins crawling all over you before we can grant typo excuses..now if your like ma and just cant spell you get an automatic typo excuse...lol

[SDguy]

Don't some of the larger dwarfs get good sized? Like the lemonpeel?

[scchase]

Ya they do I know keyholes can get to 7.5" in the wild even bigger than some of the so called large angels.

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13500151#post13500151 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by agreeive?fish
nope you have to have 3 little munchkins crawling all over you before we can grant typo excuses..now if your like ma and just cant spell you get an automatic typo excuse...lol

I have a 4 month old on my lap now so I'm typing with one hand. How's that for an excuse? :rollface:

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13500352#post13500352 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Don't some of the larger dwarfs get good sized? Like the lemonpeel?

I have my heart set on a flame angel for the dwarf. I had one a long time ago when I had a FOWLR.

[mrwilson]

If you make it GSM clowns instead of B/W ocellaris, I'd add them last. GSMs, as you probably know, are notoriously aggressive.

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13508730#post13508730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrwilson
If you make it GSM clowns instead of B/W ocellaris, I'd add them last. GSMs, as you probably know, are notoriously aggressive.

Yeah, that's part of the reason I'm not thrilled with the idea of GSMs. I've heard they can get aggressive even after being relatively peaceful for a while.

[AuroraDrvr]

Singapore Angels are technically what we call "large angels". They're in the genus Chaetodontoplus, which is the same genus as the Blueline, Bluespotted, Meredithi, Personifier, Conspiculatus, Scribbled, etc. But the Singapore angel stays much smaller than those listed above.

We used to have one (lost to velvet). Very active, great eater, and didn't back down from anyone (even a Lunare and Picasso Trigger).

[michellejy]

There are so many great suggestions here. I really appreciate it.

[jnc914]

Pictures of the Singapore Angel doesn't do it justice. They are a very beautiful angel in person, plus they are a very low cost compared to the others in the Chaetodontoplus family. Just make sure you get one that is eating first. Good choice for a 120.

[reef_only]

I love angel fish; used to have queen angel and rock beauty angel in the same tank and they were best friend and swimming together most of the time. Sadly I lost the rock angel. Did some research and people mention rock angel is hard to keep. I'll look for an other angel which can get along with my existing queen angel. My queen angel grows very slow, so I guess you can get a small angel and can keep it for a long time before it over grown in your tank.

[michellejy]

I would prefer to get fish that won't ever outgrow my tank, even though I definitely love some of the very large ones who would easily outgrow a 120.

Who knew I'd be wishing for a larger tank before I'd even finished setting up this one? :)

[MattL]

You could try a Majestic Angel (Euxiphipops navarchus)

I feel that those who play tang police with large angels are largely missing the point. I'm not saying that anyone here is doing just that -- I'm just saying that tank size is not the only question one should be asking.

Large angels, once established, have a very long lifespan. You're talking about a fish that could be with you for 15 years. *knocks on wood*, my beloved Majestic Angel has been with me for 5. Moving large fish set in their ways is difficult, and finding someone to adopt it might be very hard.

Large angels, at least the ones I am experienced with, are much slower growers than tangs. As such, juveniles of many species would do fine in a 120gal system. My Majestic Angel lived in my (4ft) 90gal system for 3 years before I upgraded to a (6ft) 125gal. So again, this comes down to longevity as well. An adolescent or juvenile angel may be fine in a 90gal system for quite some time. Butagain, this comes to longevity. Not only must you ask yourself if you plan (acts of nature aside) on being in the hobby that long, and if so, is 120gal the absolute biggest tank you could ever own. I would like to plan an 8ft system, but must wait. No worries, as my Majestic is a mere 5" long (getting to be ~1" wide too:lol: )

Different angles also have different personalities, between species and between individuals. Large angels are intelligent and inquisitive. Once established, many are extremely hardy. My Majesitc, like many others I have seen, is somewhat of a retiring leader. He has to be in charge, but he'd rather no exert himself:lol: He is mostly a rock dwelling fish, and requires lots of "private" space. That's why it's very important to observe your angelfish (if possible) and purchase one with a personality that suits your tank.

So no, non-Centropyge angels are not out of the question, IMO. If you want to consider one of the medium sized angels, then yes, a 120gal is suitable in my opinion, although you do need to ask yourself if you will be getting a bigger tank, and if you want to be an Angelfish owner for a long period of time.

Matt:cool:

[DarthSimon]

A Regal would do fine...

[MattL]

I agree, a Regal would do fine as well. I would like to try one one day, but I need to do a great deal of research on them first. I have also heard the Asfur can be kept succesfully in a reef, although I have yet to find reliable data on maximum size.

Matt:cool:

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13521374#post13521374 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by matt-davis sq.
Large angels, once established, have a very long lifespan. You're talking about a fish that could be with you for 15 years. *knocks on wood*, my beloved Majestic Angel has been with me for 5. Moving large fish set in their ways is difficult, and finding someone to adopt it might be very hard.


I think I'd get too attached to having the fish after several years to feel comfortable just giving it away. I know some people probably find it odd to get attached to a fish, but I'm putting a lot of time, effort, and money into choosing the best fish and giving them the best home I can.

At this point, part of me wishes I had a larger tank because there are so many fish I want and obviously so many that can be realistically kept in the tank I have. However, I don't know that I'll get a larger tank eventually, so I want to plan for the tank I have rather than the tank I may have someday if I win the lottery. :lol:

[MattL]

No one knows what the future holds. If I were to lose my job in 5 years and get shipped across the country, what would I do? I'd probably have to part with my fish. And yes, I'm very attached to my angelfish.

What I'm saying is that the Majestic Angel would be fine in your 120gal tank for a very long, long time. The much harder to care for Regal Angel would be as well.

Matt:cool:

[michellejy]

It's like the cartoon with the evil devil on my shoulder telling me to get the giant pretty fish. :lol:

[BangkokMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13522110#post13522110 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michellejy
However, I don't know that I'll get a larger tank eventually, so I want to plan for the tank I have rather than the tank I may have someday if I win the lottery.
This is precisely how you should stock your tank.:)

[MattL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13523919#post13523919 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michellejy
It's like the cartoon with the evil devil on my shoulder telling me to get the giant pretty fish. :lol: I don't think that's the case here.

Sure, there are some super large angels that should obviously be excluded, but we're talking about the small to medium sized non-centropyge species. A great deal of progress has been made in the past few years on keeping these species.

Honestly, if you feel you have the skill and you can make the commitment, then I think there are many angel species mentioned in this thread that you could consider.

Matt:cool:

[dcmander]

i am planning a 48x24x24 120gallon and wanted to include a regal angel and a flame angel. i think this combonation would be fine. I would be careful with the kinds and amount of tangs you put in with them....tangs can be aggressive and i'm not sure how well a regal would do with aggressive behavior (they stop eating)

my plan is to QT the regal until he is eating VERY well....then I would put him the DT and watch very careful how the tangs react. if the tangs ingore...all should be fine. If they are aggressive..i would probably remove the tangs and get the regal established and then re-add the tangs.

i'm planning on a purple tang and tomini tang with these 2 angels.... both a yellow and a purple in a 4ft 120g may be pushing it IMO.

[MattL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13526120#post13526120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dcmander
i am planning a 48x24x24 120gallon and wanted to include a regal angel and a flame angel. i think this combonation would be fine. I would be careful with the kinds and amount of tangs you put in with them....tangs can be aggressive and i'm not sure how well a regal would do with aggressive behavior (they stop eating)

my plan is to QT the regal until he is eating VERY well....then I would put him the DT and watch very careful how the tangs react. if the tangs ingore...all should be fine. If they are aggressive..i would probably remove the tangs and get the regal established and then re-add the tangs.

i'm planning on a purple tang and tomini tang with these 2 angels.... both a yellow and a purple in a 4ft 120g may be pushing it IMO. From experience, I would not recommend adding a Regal Angel, really at all.

Not that a Regal won't be fine in a 120 for years to come, but because you have highly aggressive tangs in a 4ft system.

Tangs grow very quickly. Depending on when you got them, they'll be 6" +/- by 2 years. Purple tangs are some of the most aggressive tangs there are. They're going to be very unhappy in your 120gal system. And they're going to take that unhappiness out on any addition.

Tangs generally aren't recommended for 4ft tanks, and I agree with that assessment.

I think there are some tangs, like the bristletooth varieties that either stay smaller or are less active/aggressive.

But no, a Regal Angel and a Purple tang in a 120 is asking for a beautiful fish to end up dead.

Matt:cool:

[Kahuna Tuna]

I agree that a purple in a 120 will likely become very aggressive but the Tomini is one of the smallest tangs and should be fine, as would any of the bristletooths.

However, I don't know that I'll get a larger tank eventually, so I want to plan for the tank I have rather than the tank I may have someday if I win the lottery.

Like BangkokMatt said this is right on, you are to be commended in your approach.

[DarthSimon]

I had a blue and a red sea sailfin in my 120 4 foot wide tank. The 2 gangs swam every inch of that tank. The sailfin and started around 3 inches, and are noe pushing almost 6 a year later as well as thick and fat. My 4-5 inch regal did great in there with them for over a year. Fortunately for the fish I upgraded to a 220 and they are much less aggresive now in general. The blue chases my blue jaw triggers now and then, but no damage...

Good luck!!

[Kahuna Tuna]

I think there is a general misconception that regals are a pretty passive fish. From my experience once they settle in they can be just as aggressive as every other angel, its the first few months with them that can be difficult in getting them to adapt.

[michellejy]

Okay, I've gone through all of the suggestions here, and narrowed it down barely at all. :)

So of Regal, Goldflake, Flagfin, Queensland Yellowtail (meridithi), Singapore, Blue Spotted, and Blue Striped, will any of those eventually outgrow a 120 gallon tank?

[Kahuna Tuna]

The largest any of those species you mentioned gets is about 10 inches max, and that would be the largest recorded so I would say all of those would be fine. The singapore and bluespotted stay the smallest at around 6 inches max. I have heard that the Meridithi can get quite aggressive but dont have any personal experience.

[cwoods8]

let me narrow it down even more for you.............goldflake or regal..(yellow belly)

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13540513#post13540513 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cwoods8
let me narrow it down even more for you.............goldflake or regal..(yellow belly)

Why those two?

[BangkokMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13543239#post13543239 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michellejy
Why those two?
Lets narrow it down even further - GOLDFLAKE!!!!

Personable, striking, impressive, brave...awesome!!!!

Just to whet youe appetite here's mine
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm357/Bangkokmatt/Goldflake.jpg

[michellejy]

:lol:

The goldflake is definitely beautiful. :)

[MattL]

Beautiful!

Matt:cool:

[Kahuna Tuna]

I have to agree, the goldflake is the most impressive looking and personable angel IMO. Just not for the faint of wallet (at least not my wallet).

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13544772#post13544772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kahuna Tuna
I have to agree, the goldflake is the most impressive looking and personable angel IMO. Just not for the faint of wallet (at least not my wallet).

I can understand that. The price of the T-5 lights I bought gets brought up at least once a week. :lol:

[cwoods8]

goldflake.....price too high.......let's do some math.......lifespan.....15-20+ years....(assuming your still in the hobby and he dies of natural causes)

now take what........$300/15.......imagine.. 15 years of pleasure for only $20 a year.......a little further shall we.....that's $1.67 a month......(the calcualtion method also works great on wives.....IME)
of course......we didn't take the food to account.....but hey.....who likes zoas anyways!!

[mrwilson]

What sorts of corals were you planning to keep? That may also play into your decision. Keeping in mind that all (or at least all non-Genicanthus) angels may be or become coral-pickers or eaters, that no two fish are alike, etc., the odds vary as to likelihood of coral destructiveness for each species. (I believe, for instance, that more reefers try their luck with regals in reefs than goldflakes.) Some of the experts here can help you more regarding those odds for the species you're considering.

[BangkokMatt]

The chances are that both Regals and Goldflakes will enjoy zoas - but thats just fine imo. They might go after other stuff as well but so might any angel.
My Goldflake is pretty well behaved (other than the Zoas)

[michellejy]

I don't think I want Zoas. I know a lot of people love them, but they just don't do anything for me. I'm guessing I'll have LPS, some of the soft corals, and maybe a mushroom or two. At this point though, I don't have any must have corals.

[michellejy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13545642#post13545642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cwoods8
goldflake.....price too high.......let's do some math.......lifespan.....15-20+ years....(assuming your still in the hobby and he dies of natural causes)

now take what........$300/15.......imagine.. 15 years of pleasure for only $20 a year.......a little further shall we.....that's $1.67 a month......(the calcualtion method also works great on wives.....IME)
of course......we didn't take the food to account.....but hey.....who likes zoas anyways!!

You must be my long lost twin. I can't even tell you how many times I've rationalized a big purchase using this exact method. :lol: