experience with tiny blue hippo tangs

[tydtran]

I was at a Pennsylvania area fish store yesterday and was shocked by the sight of 2 tanks loaded with tiny blue hippo tangs. There were easily 50 in each tank ranging from about a nickel to a half dollar in size.

I was saddened by this sight because my impression is that the chances of any of those fish reaching adulthood in captivity are slim to none.

Am I being too pessimistic or is this another example of a fish store irresponsibly selling fish that they know won't make it??

[Mattias L]

I share your concern. Very few of these will make it to audulthood. However, I do not think it primarily is a matter of the specific fish store being irresponsible. It is up to the customers, you and me. If we do not buy animals with small chances to have a decent life in captivity the traders will adapt, as they are for sure in it for the money.

[Jeremy Blaze]

I have grown 3 of these dime size hippos into adulthood. Lots of cyclopeeze helps.

[BrianD]

If they are captive raised, they have a very good chance of survival.

[tydtran]

It's good to hear some positive experiences.

BrianD: Do you mean that there are captive bred hippo tangs? I didn't think that they had been bred successfully in captivity.

[Jeremy Blaze]

Probably collected as peligic fry and raised in captivity.

[tydtran]

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

[tydtran]

I agree with you completely, Mattias L.

[reef_only]

I bought 2 of these small tangs; they were less than 1" including their tails. A few days later I found one is missing so I thought he was dead; for about a week later I cleaned up my sump and found him there, he was flooded down to the sump from between the over flow tees (you can imagine how small he was). I brought him back to tank and looked he was only half of the other one size (they used to be the same size). He is catching up now and they both survive and grow quite fast they got triple their size now after about 4months.

[BrianD]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13520928#post13520928 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
Probably collected as peligic fry and raised in captivity.

What he said :)

I havent' really looked for a few years, so I don't even know if these are still available. However, they were much more hardy than their wild-caught counterparts.

[jmaneyapanda]

I wasnt aware of anyone doing this. Info??

J.Blaze, I am sure you did so successfully, but for your 3, probably 3000 did not make it. I think that is what justifies not collecting the ultra tiny hippos.

[BrianD]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13521840#post13521840 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I wasnt aware of anyone doing this. Info??

J.Blaze, I am sure you did so successfully, but for your 3, probably 3000 did not make it. I think that is what justifies not collecting the ultra tiny hippos.

I don't think that is true at all. I have purchased 6 that size, and never lost any of them.

[sunfish11]

I got a nickel sized blue tang from the Fosters & Smith retail store last year. I raised him in my 34 gallon till I felt he was big enough to go into the general population. I didn't think that introducing him in with larger fish would do him any good. He is now in big tank and doing great. I have heard that they are very difficult though.

Lisa

[Mako Shark II]

I have heard that they are very difficult though. [/B] ?????

I've got a little "tail" nipping issue that I'm working through, but my Regal is a Bull.

Difficult? No. How?

Photo Opp:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13522542#post13522542

[sunfish11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13522600#post13522600 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mako Shark II
?????

I've got a little "tail" nipping issue that I'm working through, but my Regal is a Bull.

Difficult? No. How?

Photo Opp:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13522542#post13522542

I am talking about the tiny nickel and dime sized ones they sometimes sell, not all blue tangs. They are not difficult tangs in general.

Lisa

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13521903#post13521903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BrianD
I don't think that is true at all. I have purchased 6 that size, and never lost any of them.

I have personally seen them dead in holkding tanks after tranship. Also, after that cursed movie, everyopne and their mother had to have one. The mortality on these little guys is IMMENSE. Trust me.

[Mako Shark II]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13522625#post13522625 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunfish11
I am talking about the tiny nickel and dime sized ones they sometimes sell, not all blue tangs. They are not difficult tangs in general.

Lisa

AH! Right. Thanks. I do think it's wrong to sell these lovely fish prematurely. They should be marginally established prior to sale. Ensure you watch them eat at the LFS prior to purchase.

[DamnPepShrimp]

I was at this store today and almost picked up one of these tiny hippos. But knowing the slim survival rate, I decided to save my money. All of them were beat up and not looking healthy. Oh and there was a lot less then 50 today, I don't see that many people buying that many in a days time span, you know what that means.

[Mako Shark II]

Just for grins, what was the LFS asking $$$ wise?

Reason I ask is: Prices in general seem extremely regionalized.

Locally here (suburban Memphis Area) a 1-1/2" Regal Blue Tang sells for like $45. Yellows run $32-40.

I move around the country a bit, and check out the stores & prices.

Couple months back I was up in New York City, (NEW YORK CITY??!! ...sorry, old Salsa commercial On TV, but, I digress.)

Anyway, I was up in NYC out on the Island, and they're prices were Outrageous!

$279. for a 4" Regal
$79 for a 1" Regal

(And I thought to myself: "Self, hasn't anybody up here ever heard of FedEx?"")

[BrianD]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13522983#post13522983 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I have personally seen them dead in holkding tanks after tranship. Also, after that cursed movie, everyopne and their mother had to have one. The mortality on these little guys is IMMENSE. Trust me.

I repeat myself: the mortality rate for the captive raised specimens is substantially better. If they are wild-caught, I agree that the mortality rate is extremely high.

[DamnPepShrimp]

They were $20, pretty cheap, this LFS though usually has some good deals. I need a good blue fish in my tank and it fit the budget, but I just walked out with vitamins instead. I don't see many of these tangs surviving, sad to say. Wish I could have gotten one tho.

[Mako Shark II]

Wow! Mega-deal. Buy 'em!

Hey BrianD:
Wouldn't ya think those are captive then?? I mean: $20 is stupid cheap.

(On a personal note: most folks aren't gonna know where "Matt-toon" Illinois is, but at least I know how to pronounce it. My old neighbor was an Investment banker (at Harris Bank) that held the debt paper on the local Cable provider. You might know him.)

[BrianD]

Pepshrimp, the captive raised are typically much more expensive.

Mako, you are right, Matt- toon :)

[crabbejoe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13522983#post13522983 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I have personally seen them dead in holkding tanks after tranship. Also, after that cursed movie, everyopne and their mother had to have one. The mortality on these little guys is IMMENSE. Trust me.

Wouldn't the survival rate be the same, or maybe even worse, in the ocean? Those little guys would be bite size for a very large number of reef fish.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13525936#post13525936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BrianD
I repeat myself: the mortality rate for the captive raised specimens is substantially better. If they are wild-caught, I agree that the mortality rate is extremely high.

OK, I repeat myself, where is this info on captive raising?! I am trying to be polite and express my opinion and observations, but I get the feeling you wont have any of it. I have enver seen any information on captive raised hippos, so if it is there, and the mortality is minimal, please, let me see it. Thats all I want.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13526298#post13526298 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crabbejoe
Wouldn't the survival rate be the same, or maybe even worse, in the ocean? Those little guys would be bite size for a very large number of reef fish.

Predation is certainly a major cause for these guys in the wild. However, I doubt severely it would be worse. That is the risk of ANY small fish. It still doesnt rationalize the collection when they do poorly in captivity. Pinnatus batfish do poorly in home aquariums the majority of the time. They woudl perish in the wild too, for whatever reason, so does that make it ok for us to keep trying to keep them? I hope you see my point.

[BrianD]

Jameypanda, what is it you want? I have acknowledged that wild caught have a poor survival rate.

If you are questioning the distribution (in recent years, at least) of captive-reared specimens, you are incorrect.

[BrianD]

If you do not wish to believe me, check with Morgan Lidster at Inland Aquatics. Again, I do not know if they still offer these, but that is where I acquired mine. I believe they are collected in the post-larvae stage and "grown" for a few months before being offered for sale. A quick google search would probably confirm that. I have a feeling you won't believe anything I cite.

[DamnPepShrimp]

I don't think $20 is a good deal for a fish that is most likely going to die. They did not look healthy at all, not blaming the fish store, since hippos at that size are not very hardy, but they tend to have livestock that has problems (diseases etc). I wanted to get one very badly, but I just don't think it would have been a wise decision.

[BrianD]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/hcs3/index.php

"However, the good news is that captive-reared Paracanthurus hepatus are available. Do not confuse the terms captive-bred and captive-reared. Captive-bred means bred in captivity. That has not yet been possible with Paracanthurus hepatus. Captive-reared, however, means spawned in the wild and captured at the larval/post-larval stage and grown out in a protected "farm" of sorts. Once roughly ½ inch in length they are then shipped from the Solomon Islands to the United States and grown another ½ - ¾ of an inch. At that time they are then moved to the wholesale/retail level and are eventually offered for sale to the hobbyist at a size of roughly 1 - 1.5 inches in length. These captive-reared fish have proven to be excellent at adjusting to home aquarium conditions, much more so than their adult conspecifics. "

[BrianD]

Henry Schultz has first-hand knowledge of this because he was with me when I acquired 3 of these fish, and watched them grow to the point that I donated 2 of them back to Inland Aquatics to keep in their multi-thousand gallon tanks.

[jmaneyapanda]

Thanks you. That *is* the information I wanted. FWIW, The quote you state says they are acquired at 1/2" to 3/4" and grown to about 1" or more. The tiny ones I believe we are talking about here are 1/2" or so to start with, correct (saleable length 1-1.5")? If that is the case, I sincerely doubt they are captive reared, as collection and growth to that size would be difficult, at best.

Nonethless, I was not disputing your claim, not starting trouble, but instead, just wanted to see the information that you were stating from. It simply appeared to me that I was just expected to believe that these fish were available from captive sources, although I ahve never heard, nor seen this. Captive reared (and bred) French and Gray angels were available in the 70's from Martin Moe (who I believe injected them with a hormone to induce spawning, and grew them in NSW "farms", as stated in the article you quoted). Hwoever the demand versus the cost did that effort in quickly, so I wonder if the same happened with these fish, or whether it is still going on.

[BrianD]

It is too many years ago for me to remember exactly, but I think they were about quarter size (maybe smaller).

I would not be surprised if cost was an issue if they are no longer available, although a fish that costs twice as much is a pretty good deal if it actually lives ;)

[BrianD]

I would be surprised to see hepatus tangs for sale at 1/2". I have never seen that.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13526604#post13526604 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BrianD
I would be surprised to see hepatus tangs for sale at 1/2". I have never seen that.
I just saw a tank of about 30 of them here in Atlanta the other day. :(

[BrianD]

Sad.

[jmaneyapanda]

Agreed. And they were cheap too, so I fear they are "fresh" from the ocean. Check the LiveAquaria forum for my post there.

[tcmfish]

I highly doubt any of these are captive raised or were captive raised. They may have collected tiny post settlement fish and grown them up but larvae are so fragile and if your going to collect anything it would be best to collect eggs and raised them. Also tang larvae are no walk in the park.

I believe it is Oceanic Institute in Hawaii who has been working with flame angels and yellow tangs. They have raised the angels (we knew people could raise those) but the tangs have been a big pita.

When snorkeling in Cabo I saw tons of tiny Prionurus punctatus juvi's along with the almost 2 foot adults, this could a similar situation with the hippo tangs. Lots of little juvi's in shallow water, easy for collection. Now some might come straight from the ocean (cheaper price) and not do so well, and other might be held in captivity for a little bit (more expensive) so the ones that will die right away do and the others can get a little more robust before their trip across the world.

[Mako Shark II]

Phew!!! Wow guys! This is a great thread for Blue's.

Thanks Brian. The article was awesome. Now, can we agree taht "this" is due to "nipping"?: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=13522542#post13522542

[DamnPepShrimp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13526604#post13526604 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BrianD
I would be surprised to see hepatus tangs for sale at 1/2". I have never seen that.

The tank was filled with them, I should have taken a picture. I have never seen so many hippo tangs, let alone a tang at this size. Some were smaller then a quarter.

[BrianD]

tcmfish, I am not sure of your point. Did you even read the links?

[tcmfish]

I read the links.

That being said he did not cite a source for the part you quoted and none of the sources mention anything about captive rearing of Paracanthurus hepatus.

Also in the article it said there are no reports are captive spawning, and the article was published in 2003 and also in 2003 the book ultimate aquariums was published and in there it states that the hippo tangs at atlantis marine world spawn daily, now he probably didn't read the book or they came out at different times, so whatever. But they are spawning.

Now if you or inland aquatics can cite me a source showing someone raising tangs in captivity then great. I just find it funny how he cited all the other facts in the article but in the reproduction section there are none.

Like I said before I bet these were already settled juviniles that were collected just like any other fish. Sure they are small but that doesn't mean they are captive raised. It is very stressful to collect larvae and I doubt they were doing this because if they were they would kill more than would survive making it non-profitable. Now collecting small juvi's its easier the fish are hardier and there will be less deaths.

Take shrimp for example. If you can find a link where someone is raising shrimp (Lysmata sp.), you will notice when going through their stages (I believe its zoe, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment) that they tend to break their limbs resulting in deaths, but once they settle its much easier to just grow 'em out. Showing how fragile larvae are.

Or take a larval snagger can catch some clownfish larvae and compare that survival rate to just hatching them out in a larval tank.

I'm just trying to show that I doubt they were captive-raised.

FWIW

[tydtran]

The low price that I saw was something else that bothered me about the tiny tangs on display.

The discussion so far has convinced me that people on this board with experience have a chance of raising one of these tiny fish successfully.

Unfortunately, at $20 a piece, I can easily see a bunch of new people buying these fish to throw into a 10 gallon nano with a clown fish. It's just such a collosal waste.

[jmicky41]

I bought a dime sized hippo about 6 months ago for $28. I picked the largest one in the tank and now he is half dollar size. Besides a nasty case of ich, I had no issues with it. I'm pretty sure these were wild caught in Bali. I initially wanted a 2-3" one, but these were cheap and looked perfect. Apart from a few split fins, all the fish in the tank (about 40) looked well. Around here, larger hippo tangs in the stores never look too good. Usually they are skinny and tattered looking. In my opinion, if you feed them several times and day, don't have aggressive tankmakes, and can keep them out of the filter - you can be successfull with these.

[zemuron114]

i get these from christmas island from dime size to a foot. They are probably one of the easier tangs to get to eat at any size. I would agree that the little ones should be left in the ocean until the 2-3" range. It would only take a few weeks for a tang to grow an inch in the ocean. But most are caught in 3rd world countries so if they see a school of 100 tiny blue tangs, you can get all will be caught if possible.

[BrianD]

Morrissey, before you make absolute statements of fact, perhaps you should consider speaking with Lidster and others who have used the terms "larval/post larval" stage.

In any case, regardless of the term used, the fact is that these specimens had substantially less mortality than other hepatus offered in the trade. That is the issue.

[LauraCline]

I had a tiny dime sized one a while back. He doubled in size during the month long QT. He disappeared the first night in the DT and I later found him dead in the filter sock. :( Now I have a 4" piglet of a fish that I bought from another hobbyist. If I hadn't bought him, I would have gone with the ORA tank raised ones my LFS carries.

[Underwaterparadise]

As a store owner I have purchased many Blue Tangs and I can honestly say those tiny guys do leaps and bounds better then bigger adults IME. I have about a 90%+ success rate with the tiny ones. I always feed them Arctic pods and keep them in with smaller shooling fish like Chromies. Out of the last 20 I have bought only 1 has died.

Since when does ORA "TR" Blue Hippos????

[tcmfish]

I would also like to know...

[BrianD]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13533082#post13533082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tcmfish
I would also like to know...

Where in any of my links did I mention ORA?

From Kevin Kohen:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13529229#post13529229 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DFS
BrianD,
Several years ago these fish were in fact being harvested post larvae in the Solomons and shipped to Puerto Rico where Bill Addison (C-Quest) would raise them up a bit and offer them as Captive Raised Paracanthurus hepatus. As far as I know C-Quest no longer offers these fish.

Cheers!
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith

[BrianD]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13533082#post13533082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tcmfish
I would also like to know...

No, you just want to continue to dispute items you know nothing about.