any safe meds in Fowlr

[j tavares]

Unable to set up QT Tank due to space, job travel, expense any safe meds to use if needed in FOWLR tank?

[Grouperhead]

What are you trying to treat? What's the livestock and tank size? Need some of these questions answered before we can answer yours :).

[j tavares]

180 not trying to treat just curious if I would need to treat I have Damsels, Centropyge angels and one butterfly and a niger trigger

[agreeive?fish]

it all depends on what you are treating for so at this point it is basicly impossible to answer your question with any clarity

[LisaD]

there are some meds that won't take out the bio-filter, but as was said, depends on what you are treating for. Do you mean ich and velvet? flukes? internal parasites?

some meds can be given with food for some diseases.

sometimes you can net the fish and provide them with medicated baths while treating the DT with something else.

some meds will crash the biofilter, kill inverts and may poison some fish.

so it all depends...

[j tavares]

I appreciate your replies I was thinking for Ich, or velvet specifically what meds and brand names please

[JazzZero]

Your best odds for velvet or ich is hypoing the tank...not exactly a med but its said that it wont kill benefical bacterial if done slowly (dont quote me on this i jsut heard)

Feed with garlic so your fishes immune system gets a boost. do it everyday and they should be fine, again it can go either ways it may work and it may not (my LFS does this to his display and ich comes and goes but has no big effect)

or quantine everything (all fish) b4 adding to main tank

This may not be an answer to your questions but there arent really any meds that work for a reef tank or FOWLR

[Recty]

Ich, velvet and flukes are the three major players in the disease game it seems.

There isnt really much that is good to dose a reef tank with, although lots of people report Prazipro or praziquantel kills flukes 100% and doesnt harm the reef or FOWLR. I personally have no experience with that.

As far as ich and velvet goes, most things that kill that will also kill your corals and other inverts. Best to quarantine the fish in a seperate tank, treat them there and let the main tank run fallow.

If you absolutely cant run a QT like your post says, then you'll just be running a risk. A QT can be as simple as a 10g tank on the floor with a small heater and pump, would cost you about $50 total... and save you LOTS of money in fish lives.

[JustinReef]

Prazi Pro did not kill leathers, mushrooms and gorgonians when I tried it years ago in my display but it did kill xenia, clove polyps, yellow polyps and a green star polyps...you may see a trend there :)

All the corals did not look happy during treatment though. Especially mushrooms.

[flameangel88]

Like all other posters said depending on you need to treat. If it's velvet or ich as you mentioned then I suggest Seachem Cupramine but you will need lots of it and constant monitoring because the LR & LS will absorb large amount of it. As for flukes Prazipro is the best. I've used Maracyn II for bacterial infection is very good but gets expensive to treat on a large DT.

[LisaD]

Personally, I avoid copper, and never use it in the DT, but many people swear by it.

I recommend you read over the following articles by Stephen Pro so you can assess the risks and benefits of different treatments for the display tank. For the most part, treatments are recommended for QT or hospital tanks. As has been posted already, there is no "perfect" DT treatment. I can tell you from experience that trying to save a tank of sick fish is way more work than putting a fish in the QT first.

FYI, hypo will not be effective against velvet, and it has been reported that some strains of ich are also resistant to being controlled by lowered salinity.

Velvet:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.php

Ich
Part I: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
Part II: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

QT: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

Selecting healthy fish:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/ft/index.php

Sometimes even a tank with QT'd fish will get sick and it's not always feasible to take them out of the DT for treatment. If you must treat the DT, take out all the inverts you care about and keep them somewhere else.

I have used Chloroquine phosphate, which is hard to get (couldn't get the recommended diphosphate at all) as well as Quinine sulfate (from National Fish Pharmaceuticals) to treat velvet. (Did not harm the large hermits I use as CUC.)

I also lowered specific gravity to 1.018-1.020 - definitely NOT hypo, but perhaps easier on the fish and less hospitable to the parasite than "normal" seawater. I did at least 10% water changes daily (replacing any medication that was removed by water changes).

The disease kills fish so quickly that while I was treating the display, I had to also net the sickest fish (the ones I could catch) and do the following every day for several weeks. Sometimes I did this twice a day:

1) Freshwater dip for 5 minutes, followed by
2) ~ 1-hour bath in formalin OR ParaGuard (in a bucket of salt water)

This treatment gave the fish enough relief that they could hang on while the DT medication did its thing. I have done this routine twice in the last several years when I had an outbreak in the DT. I was able both times to save all or most of the fish.

I had a complete tank wipeout due to velvet in 2005. Reading the Stephen Pro articles on ich and velvet, and doing a lot of other reading and asking on the forums is how I came up with the above treatment regime.

FYI, this is a LOT of work. I have stayed up all night doing this treatment, but the outcome made it well worth it, to me.

[Stuart60611]

For what it is worth, I am doing hypo right now in the display without any major problems. I have no inverts and virtually 100% base rock, and the tank is very young at 4 months. As such, I have had little die off from the hypo. Fish are now not showing any signs of ich. Began treatment on 9/26. Since I am at about 3 weeks in hypo, I plan on at least continuing the treatment for a couple of more week and up to 8 weeks. My concern is that when I raise the salinity \back up the ich will come back, and I am not sure how long I should stay in hypo. Because I am doing it in the display with rock and substrate, I am concened that the ich cists will hide in the rock and substrate and survive the hypo.

[Recty]

Will ich really stay in the rocks, ALIVE, for more than 8 weeks? I thought leaving it fallow for 8 weeks was a guaranteed fix for a DT as long as you dont reintroduce ich again later.

I'm going to be bummed if that isnt true, it would certainly explain how I got ich in my display now though.

[Stuart60611]

Well, my tank is not fallow, but it is at hypo salinity. I have read some people claiming that the ich survived hypo. I have read conflicting information as to whether there are certain types of hypo resistant ich. My concerns is that because I am doing hypo in the display it could somehow survive in the rock and substrate. Obviously, I do not know the answer.

[Recty]

Yeah, I've heard of it surviving hypo as well, but hopefully it cant survive in an 80 degree tank for 8 weeks. I've just now removed all my fish and am starting my countdown, it's going to suck if all that work of quarantining fish for 2 months is for naught.

[Stuart60611]

Recty:

I came across a thread in the newbie forum which suggests that to eliminate ich you need to be in hypo or leave the display fallow for 11 weeks. Seems kind of extreme to me, but that is what was opined in the thread.

See here (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1420521&perpage=25&pagenumber=3).

[Recty]

Yeah, 11 weeks seems like a long time. I wonder at what temperature the guy deduced that number?

I know at 75 degrees you'll have to wait longer for it to cycle through their lives than if you run it at 80.

I bumped my tank temperature slowly up from 78 to 82 over the weekend to hopefully kill off the ich faster.

The bummer thing is I cant catch my three last damsels... they wont eat anymore and are definitely showing some ich spots, so I'm hoping at this point they just die soon so I can start my 8-11 week fallow period. That is the one bad thing about a 210g tank, there is no way in the world I'm ever going to catch 3 small damsels that arent interested in food. There is so much live rock they can pick at that they dont really care about food I drop in there.

[Stuart60611]

Just as an update, I think I am going to try quinine sulphate to treat and permanently erradicate the ich. National fish Pharmaceuticals sells it labeled as Crypto-Pro. I have been doing some research on it, and it is very effective at permanently killing the ich. It will not affect the biological filter, but it will kill any macro algae and some corals. I just got off the phone with them, and they advised that a single dosing left in the system for 7 days will erradicate the ich permanently and should not have any detrimental effect upon my system. I think I am going to give it a try because I just do not think the hypo is going to do the trick. I noticed my trigger started to scratch again yesterday, despite being in hypo for nearly 3 weeks.

[flameangel88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13544222#post13544222 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stuart60611
Just as an update, I think I am going to try quinine sulphate to treat and permanently erradicate the ich. National fish Pharmaceuticals sells it labeled as Crypto-Pro. I have been doing some research on it, and it is very effective at permanently killing the ich. It will not affect the biological filter, but it will kill any macro algae and some corals. I just got off the phone with them, and they advised that a single dosing left in the system for 7 days will erradicate the ich permanently and should not have any detrimental effect upon my system. I think I am going to give it a try because I just do not think the hypo is going to do the trick. I noticed my trigger started to scratch again yesterday, despite being in hypo for nearly 3 weeks.

Please report back with your results.

[Stuart60611]

Will do.

[LargeAngels]

"I have been doing some research on it, and it is very effective "

Please elaborate on what studies/research, who, when, conditions, etc.

[Stuart60611]

Well, I am not aware of any studies concerning this. The information on treatment is sketchy at best. I have scoured the web, and I am only able to find annecdotal information about the treatment. I did speak with Dr. Brian from National Fish Pharmaceuticals who indicated that he has used this drug sucessfully many times, and it should not harm the biological filter, but it will kill photosynthetic algae and corals. Also, LisaD who posted on this thread and regularly posts on RC indicated above that she has used it and interestingly indicated that it did not harm her hermits. Also, Bob Fenner from wetwebmedia seems to indicate that it has been effective. I know I found other information besides the below, but this is what I could find now quickly. Generally, certainly no hard core scientific proof that this drug works. But I do not think that this is your typical "snake oil" ich remedy, but a real drug which can work.

I should add that a recent book called The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook by Bob Goemans & Lance Ichinotsubo (2008) suggests the use of quinine based medications as the newest form of parasite treatment now being used by commercial aquarists because it is less toxic than copper and very effective (see pages 146-147).

link (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm)

link (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/neongobies.htm)

link (http://www.3reef.com/forums/asap/yellow-eyed-tang-w-ich-45711-2.html)

link (http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/a/newich.htm)

link (http://aquarium-medictions.blogspot.com/)

link (http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=40)

[LargeAngels]

Thanks. The reason I ask is that fish can develop an apparent "immunity" to ich and velvet and that has to be factored into the tests/studies/claims being made.

If National Fish Pharmaceuticals is selling this Crypto-Pro product then shouldn't they have done some studies instead of just saying they have used it successfully?

[Stuart60611]

Ya, I wish there were some formal studies on it also. But there is at least some credible information from some respected sources out there to suggest it works. Who knows for sure, but certainly appears to be more credible than your typical "snake oil" remedy.

[LargeAngels]

I agree it seems to be more credible, but still needs more studying. Another question is if I read the treatment correctly it stated 3 three day treatments, but we know ich can survive longer. Or does it kill ich at all stages? I went to the their website, but there is no real info on Crypto-Pro.

[Stuart60611]

Dr. Brian told me that a single treatment of 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons left in the system for 7 days without skimming or carbon should work. He indicated that the multi-dosing treatment should be used on small systems because they disapate the medicine more readily due to water circulation and evaporation. However, he indicated on larger systems you do the above treatment. If you search the site carefully you will find the above protocal suggested for central systems.

If you are interested, you can click on the contact us link and call Dr. Brian directly to get more information. He seemed very willing to talk about it.

[Stuart60611]

As a further follow up, I just, once again, spoke with Dr. Brian who indicated that quinine sulphate kills ich in all 3 stages of its life cycle and that is why the treatment can be so short.

[LargeAngels]

If that is the case then he should publish his findings, information and studies because that will be the biggest breakthrough and findings on ich.

[Stuart60611]

My read on this Dr. Brian is that he does not seem like the scientist type but rather more of a practitioner. When I called him, he was treating sick animals. As such, I doubt he has ever conducted any study whatsoever, and I think he simply treats fish with this medicine and has observed success. I think he bases any scientific information about the medicine killing ich in all stages and the like from information he received from others.

[CIGDAZE]

I see it's been about a month, may I inquire about how the Quinine Sulphate treatment worked out for you?

[Stuart60611]

Well, mixed results. I dosed as directed, and despite being advised that it would not affect my biological filter, the drug definitely did so and had a large ammonia spike as a result. I did my dosing in hyposalinity levels (after being advised it was ok to do so). After the ammonia spike, I did a major water change and remained in hypo levels. I am now just starting to re-raise my salinity back up. In summary, I did a 6 week hypo treatment with dosing quinine sulphate at about 2 weeks into hypo and remained in hypo for 4 weeks thereafter.

At this point, my salinity is about 1.012 and see no visible signs of ich. However, my trigger is still flashing quite a bit. I do not see any visible signs of ich on the trigger or other fish. My PH is low, and I am in the process of raising it back up. My research indicates that perhaps the trigger flashing has nothing to do with ich and rather is caused by the low PH.

At this point, I am not sure whether I beat the ich or not. In any case, I certainly did not conduct my efforts in any scientific way. Therefore, even if I am successful at eliminating the ich, it cannot necessarily be attributed to the quinine sulphate and could also be a result of the hypo.

[flameangel88]

Thanks for the update. Does anyone know if quinine sulphate is easily removed or part of it will be absorbed into the rocks and sandbed like copper.

I battled ich 3 times since June when it was bought in by a 3" Regal angel. The ammonia spiked due to dying of cukes and brittle worms. After seeing my butterfies breathing heavy 13 days into Cupramine treatment I started removing Cupramine by WC, carbon and poly filter pads and ich came back in couple of days. After reading replies that it's safe to use Cupramine for 30 days I dosed again and 25 days into it I noticed my angels was struggling as massive worms die-off I started to remove Cupramine. About a week later I notice ich again coming back slowly but was more noticable on the Burgess butterfly as it was constantly scratching against the rocks. After seeing couple of fish not eating as much and some were even losing interest I knew I had to take drastic action. This time I went 31 days with Cupramine as I don't have anymore worms in the system to worry about and looks good so far after removing Cupramine 2.5 weeks ago. During the last 10 plus days I raised the level to about 0.6.

Trying to get the fish more comfortable I ended up prolonging the copper treatment.

[Stuart60611]

Quinine sulphate is easily removed through water changes, skimming, and carbon. It does not get absorbed in the rock and substrate like copper.

I am definitely perplexed at this point. None of my other fish show any visible signs of ich, and all are eating well, breathing normally, and out in the open (no hiding). My trigger is, however, flashing like crazy. He does not do this all the time. But he will repetively flash against the overflow for a few minutes and then go about his business behaving normally to do it again every so often. I have observed him carefully, and I see no visible signs of disease. His skin looks perfect with no dots or discolorations, and I see no inflamation near or about his gills. The only thing I have noticed is that as I re-raise my salinity, the trigger seems to flash aggressively after adding salt. Perhaps, he is just reacting to the change in the water. I have heard that some fish react this way to water changes. I am pretty sure that flukes is not an issue because I treated for that already with two successive prazipro treatments. Not sure what to do here. At this point, I am going to stay on plan and continue to re-raise my salinity slowly. I will then re-evaluate after that.