do you use a calcium and kalk reactor

[urbor]

ok so im trying to figure out the difference between calcium and kalk reactors

do they do the same thing or do you need both

[jhutton]

i have both, i was told the kalc reactor helps to maintain ph and the calc reactor does calcium and alkalinity, i was also informed that the type of calcium the kalk reactor puts in cannot be used by corals or clams its the calcium gluconate (sp) that the calc reactor puts in, my .02 cents worth please correct me if other wise

[chris4869]

Both will provide usable calcium and alk.

Kalk reactor uses pickling lime and fresh water. It'll provide calcium and alk at the same time, but is limited to the evaporation rate of your tank. The pickling lime raises the pH. If your calcium demand is high then the kalk reactor might not be enough for you.

Calcium reactor uses coral skeleton and CO2. It'll provide calcium and alk, but will also lower your pH because of the CO2.

So why do some of us use both? We use the calcium reactor as the main source of cal & alk. The kalk reactor is there to raise the pH.

[jdieck]

jhutton:
Although calcium polygluconate is one of the main ingredients in some calcium supplements like Seachem's reef calcium it si not and can not be available from the ouput of either a calcium or a Kalk reactor.

Basically both reactors do the same thing regarding adding Calcium and Alkalinity in the smae proportion at which they are consummed (20 ppm calcium for each 1 meq/lt of alkalinity) with two main differences.
The maximum amount added by the Kalk reactor is limited to the amount of evaporation ad the lime (Kalk) has to be dissolved in fresh water. The other main difference is as mentioned above, the calcium reactor has a tendency to lower the PH while the Kalk reactor has a tendency to increase it. By combining the operation of both, a very stable PH can be achieved.

On the other hand, a calcium reactor system is more expensive than a Kalk reactor but is limited only by its size. (The amount of media it can hold and dissolve)

[palawan]

Kalkwasser is also good for phosphate precipitation.

[madreef_7K]

Sorry guys! I have to disagree with both jdieck and chris!

There is a big difference between Kalk reactor and calcium reactor (although, they sound like same thing, kalk is german for calcium). Both of these equipments do different things and add ca to the tank in a different forms.

Calcium reactor uses coral rubble as media. When you bubble, CO2 through water, it forms carboinc acid (and hence the pH goes acidic <7, ideally you want pH between 6.5-6.8 where water is completely saturated with CO2). This carbonic acid (H2CO3) dissolves the coral skeleton and produces calcium carbonate (CaCO3) which imparts alkanity to the tank and it taken up by corals. Since you are adding acidic water back to the tank, the pH of the tank goes down (although, the buffering capacity of the salt water is good enough to keep it above 7.9, it can go lower than that)

Kalk reactor uses calcium hydroxide (Ca(OH)2) as media which is extremely basic (pH=12). It also provide Ca to the tank, but in the form of Ca(OH)2 which is not taken up directly by corals. This Ca(OH)2 reacts with buffered salt water and forms CaCO3, there by rasing the pH of the tank. A lot of people, including me, connect kalk reactors in there topoff system for a steady compensation of water and pH in addition to adding extra Ca to the tank.

Excess use of either of these equipment is BAD for your tank but when used in balance, there is nothing better to keep the water parameters in balance.

This is just my opinion :)

[Nuuze]

What about dual chamber calcium reactors?

[mikeatjac]

madreef what are you disagreeing with?

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13660241#post13660241 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by madreef_7K
Sorry guys! I have to disagree with both jdieck and chris!

There is a big difference between Kalk reactor and calcium reactor (although, they sound like same thing, kalk is german for calcium). Both of these equipments do different things and add ca to the tank in a different forms.

Calcium reactor uses coral rubble as media. When you bubble, CO2 through water, it forms carboinc acid (and hence the pH goes acidic <7, ideally you want pH between 6.5-6.8 where water is completely saturated with CO2). This carbonic acid (H2CO3) dissolves the coral skeleton and produces calcium carbonate (CaCO3) which imparts alkanity to the tank and it taken up by corals. Since you are adding acidic water back to the tank, the pH of the tank goes down (although, the buffering capacity of the salt water is good enough to keep it above 7.9, it can go lower than that)

Kalk reactor uses calcium hydroxide (Ca(OH)2) as media which is extremely basic (pH=12). It also provide Ca to the tank, but in the form of Ca(OH)2 which is not taken up directly by corals. This Ca(OH)2 reacts with buffered salt water and forms CaCO3, there by rasing the pH of the tank. A lot of people, including me, connect kalk reactors in there topoff system for a steady compensation of water and pH in addition to adding extra Ca to the tank.

Excess use of either of these equipment is BAD for your tank but when used in balance, there is nothing better to keep the water parameters in balance.

This is just my opinion :)

I do not know what you disagree with but there is one note I want to make. The buffering capacity of the salt water other than being increased by the alkalinity added has little to do with either process.
The calcium reactor once the media is dissolved delivers directly calcium ions and the alkalinity ions in a combination of carbonic acid and bicarbonate. As the carbonic acid and the bicarbonate release the CO2 (excess which lowers PH) that is vented out of the tank water, the carbonic acid converts to bicarbonate and part of the bicarbonate to carbonate to stabilize at the tanks higher PH.
In the case of the limewater (Kalk), as the calcium hydroxide is dissolved in the reactor, it delivers calcium ions and hydroxide ions. The hydroxide ions take up CO2 from the tank water column to form carbonate which in turn partially takes up additional CO2 to form bicarbonate, thus the end result being the same as with the calcium reactor with the difference that the first releases CO2 (Lowering PH) and the second, uptakes CO2 thus increasing the PH.
One thing to note is that this PH efect in both cases persists only as far as those conversions are happening and the degree at which the PH is affected depends much on the system capacity to get rid into or uptake CO2 from the surrounding air.

Hope this adds more detail.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13660272#post13660272 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nuuze
What about dual chamber calcium reactors?
It takes some time for the media to get dissolved and stabilize the ratio of carbonic acid to bicarbonate inside the reactor.
As the CO2 dissolves in the water it forms carbonic acid only. As the carbonic acid dissolves the media it adds bicarbonate to the point both are in balance.
When the first chamber is smaller, a second chamber is added to increase the time the solution is in contact with media for this balance to be achieved thus increasing the proportion of bicarbonate which in turn increases the PH of the solution.
See, the alkalinity takes three different forms depending on the PH, carbonic acid, bicarbonate and carbonate. At high PH (close to 9) it is mostly in the form of carbonate. At lower PH (*.2 to 8.4 the three forms exist although the bicarbonate is the form most prevalent. As PH drops the most more of the carbonic acid form exists.
At a PH of about 6.3 the combination is about 50% carbonic acid and 50% bicarbonate with almost no carbonate. It takes time for this balance to be achieved so if you pass the solution trough the reactor too fast, it will contain more bicarbonate than it should thus increasing the PH lowering effect.

In simple words the end result of adding a second chamber is to increase the PH of the reactor output, improve the consumption of CO2/carbonic acid by allowing it to convert more thoroughly and increase the capacity of the reactor. This also allow for shorter reactors that can better fit inside a stand although it trades vertical space for horizontal space.

There are other means to help increase the time the media is in contact with the solution other than increasing the first chamber size or adding a second chamber. The simpler of which is to increase the flow capacity of the recirculation pump.
Every time the solution is circulated trough the media it is equivalent to one time the height of the reactor so if the solution turns inside the chamber 10 times before it is released to the aquarium that will be equivalent to a chamber that is 10 times higher. My say doubling the flow capacity of the pump you double the number of turns thus doubling the equivalent height of the chamber and as a result doubling the time the solution is in contact with the media. This is why, as the media dissolves the capacity of the reactor decreases, less height in the media column as well as more mud which partially clogs the flow reducing the number of turns. Although the media does not need to be replaced, this is why I always recommend to top off media when it reaches 3/4 of it's original height and once in a while (every 4 to 6 months) I recommend taking all the media out and rinse it as well as rinsing the reactor and any foam that might be used to support the media.

Hope this help although it might have been more detail than what you were looking for.

[Paulairduck]

A lot of good info, I now have a headache:D

[madreef_7K]

What can I say, I am ******* :)
I reread the the post from Jdieck just now and I misunderstood it. (too late in the night to post reply)

I take it back! Jdieck is right!

[jdieck]

Never mind Mad.. I think 10:00 AM was too early for me too, I just re-read my post and I found something that needs correction :D..

A correction to the 9:58 AM post above ...

The paragraph:

At a PH of about 6.3 the combination is about 50% carbonic acid and 50% bicarbonate with almost no carbonate. It takes time for this balance to be achieved so if you pass the solution trough the reactor too fast, it will contain more bicarbonate than it should thus increasing the PH lowering effect.

Should say:

At a PH of about 6.3 the combination is about 50% carbonic acid and 50% bicarbonate with almost no carbonate. It takes time for this balance to be achieved so if you pass the solution trough the reactor too fast, it will contain more carbonic acid than what it could thus increasing the PH lowering effect.

[kajung2k]

great information....

[Nuuze]

jdieck, thanks for the info!

[jdieck]

Enjoy!

[Nuuze]

How come there aren't more dual chamber than single chamber calcium reactors? It seems that it would be better for parameters.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13662148#post13662148 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nuuze
How come there aren't more dual chamber than single chamber calcium reactors? It seems that it would be better for parameters.
Yes it might be but if the reactor is designed properly a second chamber is not needed because if the right balance between carbonic acid and bicarbonate is achieved in the first chamber, the second chamber will do little.
THe second chamber will be more useful when stretching the capacity of the reactor an may not be needed initially but could be added later if your alkalinity consumption requirements increase.

[kdblove_99]

Good stuff thanks guys!

[turtleman9100]

I use KR for topoff only and dose calcium chloride when needed.

[das75]

Ca Reactor only and display pH stays around 8.3.