2-Part Additives..which one?

[kev apsley]

Which 2-part additive do you like and why?

[abraha]

I like bulkreefsupply mainly because of price and it does the job. No trace elements like the pre mixed brands but it does the job of calcium and alkalinity.

[myzislow]

I like B-ionic. Steady parameters are easy to achieve and the pH is always within range, even in the middle of the night without the use of any fuge on a reverse schedule.

[abraha]

Also I use mine on a doser so It steadily doses the tank 24 hours, so no problems with ph fluctuation.

[Don-Coraleone]

cant go wrong with b-ionic.

[ngn8dogg]

Randys 2 part. Works great and very Cheap to make

[belgian_waffleman]

After futs'n around with all different additives, I started using B-ionic.
The corals look better, grow faster. PH and CA are always in balance.

Waffleman

[eep013]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13667280#post13667280 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abraha
I like bulkreefsupply mainly because of price and it does the job.

+1 for Bulk Reef Supply. Very inexpensive and the dosage calculator on their site is great.

[ReefJunkieOK]

Randy's

[J.R.L.]

randys works great for me...def worth it

[Logzor]

I saw posts about the new dow flake not being pure enough anymore. Which product for mag and calcium are actually safe to use and from what vendor (for randys two part).

[SSalty]

I use B-Ionic

[fishdoc11]

Randy's 2 part for me because it's cheap, easy and it works. I used Kent 2 part for years before I switched to Randy's a few year ago and it works fine as well. They are all basically the same thing except some have trace additives which are or aren't helpfull depending on your personal opinion. Quality control would be the only likely difference otherwise that I can see.

Chris

[spleify]

Randys here too.

[fishdoc11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13668449#post13668449 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Logzor
I saw posts about the new dow flake not being pure enough anymore. Which product for mag and calcium are actually safe to use and from what vendor (for randys two part).

Here is the lowdown on that:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1271282&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

And for those that are wondering what Randy's 2 part is:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/chem.htm

[naldopr]

which kit is the best deal for the money in bulkreefsupply?

[LCN]

B-Ionic for sure.

[Logzor]

Is it possible to dilute b-ionic?

On my new tank I have the litermeter III setup and the minimum it can does it 50ml and I only dose 30 ml of each two part a day.

[fishdoc11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13670130#post13670130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Logzor
Is it possible to dilute b-ionic?



You should be able to. With others I know you can.

[kev apsley]

anybody try the 2-part by Brightwell Aquatics?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is no concern with diluting any brand of two part as much as you want to in order to accommodate a dosing pump. Just never mix them together outside the tank, even when highly diluted with fresh water. :)

[stanlalee]

So whats so special about these 2 part "systems"? I use the calcium chloride of my choice (seachem reef complete mainly because its more concentrated than the others, has trace amounts of Mg and Sr that keeps me from dosing those and doesn't seem to cost anymore than other name brand calcium chloride supplements). Alk products are just carbonate and bicarbonate, I've seen no difference in using different brands. I use Kent pro buffer dKH or Seachem Reef complete but only because they are commonly available locally.
I can understand using the 2 parts if they are more concentrated, cheaper or have some element added that you wish for but otherwise I prefer to choose the calcium and alk of my choice which could change anytime. Am I missing the buss here? is there more to these 2 parts that I'm not aware of?

[kev apsley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13672780#post13672780 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stanlalee
So whats so special about these 2 part "systems"? I use the calcium chloride of my choice (seachem reef complete mainly because its more concentrated than the others, has trace amounts of Mg and Sr that keeps me from dosing those and doesn't seem to cost anymore than other name brand calcium chloride supplements). Alk products are just carbonate and bicarbonate, I've seen no difference in using different brands. I use Kent pro buffer dKH or Seachem Reef complete but only because they are commonly available locally.
I can understand using the 2 parts if they are more concentrated, cheaper or have some element added that you wish for but otherwise I prefer to choose the calcium and alk of my choice which could change anytime. Am I missing the buss here? is there more to these 2 parts that I'm not aware of?

exactly, it's all what brand/brands you prefer using if you dose 2-part and what brand you feel works the best for you and your tank, or is there a brand to avoid?. No specifics here, just a general feel of what people like and are using in their tanks, your not missing the bus at all, there is no magic bullet here, it's just an overall feel for what brand folks like

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So whats so special about these 2 part "systems"?

Am I missing the buss here?

Well, I'd have to say yes, but it may take you a long time to believe it.

The overriding advantage of all balanced calcium and alkalinity methods (limewater, CaCO3/CO2 reactors, and two part systems, among others) is that they tie calcium and alkalinity together in the same ratio that it is used up in the tank.

While it might seem best to just test and dose as needed, 20+ years of reefers have found that such methods often end up on a roller coaster of high/low calcium and alkalinity, either through inaccurate or inadequate testing, faulty dosing, or a myriad of other problems. There is no end of such problems posted in the chemistry forum that would have been avoided by balanced dosing only unless there is a clear and substantial problem that needs correcting.

For example, once calcium and alkalinity are at target levels, you can probably go for a long, long time on any balanced method without ever testing calcium. It will almost always follow along just fine (barring a off salt mix from messing with it) if you are appropriately maintaining alkalinity.

[stanlalee]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13673354#post13673354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
So whats so special about these 2 part "systems"?

Am I missing the buss here?

Well, I'd have to say yes, but it may take you a long time to believe it.

The overriding advantage of all balanced calcium and alkalinity methods (limewater, CaCO3/CO2 reactors, and two part systems, among others) is that they tie calcium and alkalinity together in the same ratio that it is used up in the tank.

While it might seem best to just test and dose as needed, 20+ years of reefers have found that such methods often end up on a roller coaster of high/low calcium and alkalinity, either through inaccurate or inadequate testing, faulty dosing, or a myriad of other problems. There is no end of such problems posted in the chemistry forum that would have been avoided by balanced dosing only unless there is a clear and substantial problem that needs correcting.

For example, once calcium and alkalinity are at target levels, you can probably go for a long, long time on any balanced method without ever testing calcium. It will almost always follow along just fine (barring a off salt mix from messing with it) if you are appropriately maintaining alkalinity.

well its the "balanced" part I'm not understanding. I get the balanced at the same rate it is utilized by the tank (the same theory of adding mg and sr to reef complete). what I dont get is why it matters that much when everybody is using different salts with different levels or calcium and carbonates and everybody is changing water at different volumes and time frames. when all said and done arent you just testing and adding until you've mastered the daily dosing required for stable parameters just like you would any cal and alk products?
example: my last tank once I had it down I dosed exactly X amount of calcium chloride alternating daily Y amount of carbonate/bicarbonate (products from two different manufacturers) and any given day I could tell you what the test results were going to be before testing. I may have needed 20ml of this and 30ml of that but I'm pretty certain I found the "balance" based on the lack of deviation in parameters. whats to stop me from finding the balance of any two calcium and carbonate products? many calcium supplements even publish the calcium ratio per ml? point being sooner or later whatever you use you will end up finding the balance just on routine use.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I told you you would not believe it now, but few very experienced reefers use constant independent additions of calcium and alkalinity. :)

Assuming that you start with a salt mix that is not far from your target, or adjust it to match (the best option, IMO, and what I do), then there is no ongoing unbalanced adjustment needed. :)

when all said and done arent you just testing and adding until you've mastered the daily dosing required for stable parameters just like you would any cal and alk products?

With a two part, only monitoring alkalinity works fine, and calcium will follow along, with just rare remeasurement to confirm and/or adjust.

[mg426]

Dude with all due respect, If Randy says to do something in regard to chemistry. IMO you had better have your thinking cap on. He knows what he is doing.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One other things that a high quality two part can do is maintain all the ions at natural seawater ratios. For example, sulfate and chloride. Your current method does not do that, and is, I think, heavy on chloride and deficient in sulfate.

Alk products are just carbonate and bicarbonate, I've seen no difference in using different brands. I use Kent pro buffer dKH

FWIW, the Kent product has borate too, and wouldn't be my pick for alkalinity supplement in a reef tank. Corals mostly use up bicarbonate/carbonate, and that's what I'd recommend replacing. Baking soda is fine, but if the like Kent products, Coral Builder is the one that claims to be borate free. :)

[stanlalee]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13675060#post13675060 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mg426
Dude with all due respect, If Randy says to do something in regard to chemistry. IMO you had better have your thinking cap on. He knows what he is doing.

with all due respect I'm sure he does but that doesn't mean I dont want him to explain it so that I can understand the advantages. for all I know he could have answered "yes its no different than using any cal and alk supplements" and I guess I would be expected to accept that but he says there's a difference. I asked questions and he's answering satisfactory. I dont have to kiss up and accept anything without explanation just because someone is "thee man" around here. I know he's the man in this area and many of you use his two part products, the better to grill him with what I dont get.

[stanlalee]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13675171#post13675171 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
One other things that a high quality two part can do is maintain all the ions at natural seawater ratios. For example, sulfate and chloride. Your current method does not do that, and is, I think, heavy on chloride and deficient in sulfate.

Alk products are just carbonate and bicarbonate, I've seen no difference in using different brands. I use Kent pro buffer dKH

FWIW, the Kent product has borate too, and wouldn't be my pick for alkalinity supplement in a reef tank. Corals mostly use up bicarbonate/carbonate, and that's what I'd recommend replacing. Baking soda is fine, but if the like Kent products, Coral Builder is the one that claims to be borate free. :)

IC, so there may be a little more to it than one see's at first glance. for the record I'm not currently using kent (no fault of my own, blame the LFS stocking) but its good to know. I actually did notice the borate in the ingredients but I know a certain popular salt manufacturers synthetic salt have high borate levels (to the point where they recommend subtracting 2.5dKH from most test kits alk readings) so I didn't think much of it in the way of being harmful (since I'm not using that particular salt unusually high in borate. I figured at worse it be like using that salt). Elos and some of the other highly regarded companies have borate salts in their buffer as well.

[naldopr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13671457#post13671457 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kev apsley
anybody try the 2-part by Brightwell Aquatics?
i also like to know about brightwell

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

with all due respect I'm sure he does but that doesn't mean I dont want him to explain it so that I can understand the advantages.

Absolutely. I am always willing to explain what I think, so that folks can decide for themselves what is best for their systems. :)

i also like to know about brightwell

FWIW, I've not seen any detailed chemical analysis of any commercial two part system, so in many cases, you are relying on your trust of the particular company that they are providing what they say (aside from easily noticed things like the actual calcium and alkalinity concentrations).