Please Help...Too much misleading info on the internet!

[lamontcarter]

Please read all before answering

I've been on here asking a lot of questions about saltwater aquariums, and I know you guys are getting tired of seeing noobs try to go big and ask stupid questions (but the only stupid question is the one not asked):) I asked this same question on Yahoo Answers, but no-one seems to be able to give me a straight up answer. I'm doing tons of research on them now, and maybe even considering studying marine life as a profession, but right now I'm not finding the information I'm looking for anywhere else, and I don't have access to people around me that know a lot about aquariums, so I'm looking to you guys:) I'm planning on making a large saltwater aquarium (1000 gal approximately). I want to know if this filtration setup will work.

I plan on having around 1000lbs of live rock, maybe more like 800lbs, but 1000 is the general area I'm shooting for. I'm buying a commercial "myreefcreations.com" protein skimmer. They are supposedly capable of filtering a total of 8500 gallons, and I plan on using a 5800gph pump on it. They say you should have anywhere from 6-8 times full water turnaround per hour when filtering with the Berlin style setup, or so I've heard.

I wanted to use a UV filter, but I read that they kill beneficial bacteria as well, and can cause marine fish to lose their natural immunity sometimes, like a human living in a germ free bubble. I decided that the protein skimmer and the live rock were enough for filtering, judging by what I've read from various sources. However, they alone are not enough to handle a heavy bio-load in a tank that size (from what I hear). Would another protein skimmer be appropriate to add, or is there another single filtration unit I can add to this setup that would let me handle a heavy bio-load. I don't want to use any sumps, or anything like that. I just want another single type of commercial grade filter, that would dramatically raise the potential bio-load for this aquarium.

I was looking into carbon filtering, but I heard they release chemicals into the water, and I don't want to take any chances, judging by how much this setup is going to cost. I have the heating and cooling arrangements already setup (a couple 3kw heaters, and a 1hp chiller, not saying i will need them all, i do plan on heating the room and insulating, but just in case).

I also came across some really cool aquarium lights I plan on using, I know they're expensive, but I would appreciate it if you guys gave it a look and told me what you think.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~c...

It's that Giesemann Moonlight 6' light.

I plan on having somewhere in the area of 50 small 3" long, slender bodied fish, and about 10-20 large 8"-1' fish in this tank. I also want to have lots and lots of hermit crabs, snails, lobsters, shrimp etc...so you can see what I mean about a heavy bio-load.

I've never seen a canister filter that's rated for anything above 300gal, and a sump is a last resort for me, because of how much floor space it would take up with a tank that size. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

I didn't mention before, I plan on using two of those lighting systems...and I was thinking of swapping the bulbs out with 400w ones...can I do it with that model light?

last question...would two of those protein skimmers work? so a total of 11600 gph filtering? is this too much?

by the way, i'm planning on the tank being 13' long, 4' high, and 2.5' deep, with 1.250" bullet resistant plexiglas. please help.

[Whys]

10x minimum for reef tanks. 15 to 20x is considered better. Higher turnover rates are not unheard of.

From what I know, carbon isn't supposed to release chemicals into the water. Quite the opposite. Absorbing them is what carbon is for. Perhaps if it gets too old and is not changed regularly? You should rinse it before putting into the tank tho, in case of dust. You don't want carbon dust getting into the tank if you can avoid it.

I've never heard of anything losing its natural immunities due to UV sterilization. It does kill a few beneficial organisms, but people don't typically use UV unless they have a situation where it's really needed.

Your link is broken.

Good luck with the project. :)

[Shiandy]

Wow, thats going to be one expensive setup.

I've no real experiance with large aquariums, but you seem mind set on not having a sump, and I would not even contemplate having an aquarium of this size without one. It brings so many benefits, one major one being to help with the bio load.

With live rock, a typical weight is 1.5lb per gallon, but obviously with large systems I'm sure you would get away with 1lb per gallon.

As for skimming, here's Deltec's philosophy "every 1000 Ltrs of water in the aquarium that you require 400 - 500 Ltrs of air per hour to achieve efficient skimming"

Might be worth while reposting your questions in the Large Aquarium forum, as many people there own 1000g+ systems.

[Reefbox]

That sounds like an impressive size system.

For flow, I would go with a wavebox or waveboxes. they keep everything up off the bottom. Even behind rockwork.

I would also plan on a sump/refugium to hide equipment, place for skimmer, pod reproduction, Automatic top off switch, etc.

[Sugar Magnolia]

This thread should be helpful - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1287828&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

[Juruense]

I would suggest studying, reading, and planning for a few more months before spending a single penny.

Setup a small system first also.

[Shiandy]

+1 on setting up a smaller system 1st, will be a great learning curve, plus any mistakes won't be too costly.

[BurntOutReefer]

"From what I know, carbon isn't supposed to release chemicals into the water. Quite the opposite. Absorbing them is what carbon is for. Perhaps if it gets too old and is not changed regularly? You should rinse it before putting into the tank tho, in case of dust. You don't want carbon dust getting into the tank if you can avoid it."....

Some carbons will start leaching back into the systems once teh carbon gets "old".....

[Playa-1]

If I were in your shoes, I would do lots and lots of reading before anything else. I wouldn't make the mistake of relying solely on the internet and forums for the information. Then I would read some more. A great place to start is "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" By Robert Fenner. I would follow that up with this list:
Reading list (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/tips/index.php)

I wouldn't stop there either. There are some other great series that are not on the list. The reading will save you a small fortune.

There is a forum on Reef Central aimed at larger tanks that will be beneficial for you. It's in the special interest category.

The link for the lighting doesn't work for me.

Are you planning to keep Corals in the tank or FOWLR?
How are you planning to deal with Phosphates and Nitrates?
Do you have a plan for water changes?
What is your plan for circulation in the tank?
Have you considered noise levels?
Have you considered energy usage?
Is there a reason that a sump/fuge couldn't be located remotely?

[WrinkleFreeZone]

I too have dreams of a massive system, but I've learned some things on my current setup that I couldn't have anticipated without the experience of actually having it. Design flaws may break you in terms of being successful with your tank. I highly recommend that you set up a smaller system first and see how it goes. Learn from this before investing big bucks into a system that you may not need or that may become far more expensive or difficult than you can anticipate in terms of running.

From here, I have a couple of thoughts about your system that might give you food for thought:

If you intend to keep fish and inverts only and no coral. You could be paying big bucks for a lighting system that you don't need. (Unnecessary break the bank experience)

The height of your tank at 48" is going to be a problem for you on several fronts. In terms of lighting, I'm not sure 400 W MH will give you good enough penetration if you ever intend to go heavily into SPS. You should probably post that over in the lighting side of things. You will need to speak with the manufacturer directly about using a 400 W bulb in a 250 W's place. The ballast is likely not rated for that and the bulb will be underdriven if it lights at all. (Dim lit experience)

You need to measure the length of your arm. It is going to be a royal PITA to have a 48" height. I'm 6'1" and have a 30" high tank. With this I can touch the bottom with my fingertips and manipulate items on the bottom but I can't put my palm on the bottom without basically going swimming. How are you going to maintain your tank with this height? What are you going to do to pick anything up off the bottom? Don't think that tongs are going to be able to do everything, you can't be dextrous enough with them. (Slippery when wet experience)

Have you thought about the weight of your system? Is your home engineered to handle 5 tons or more? That is can you support the weight of the tank, equipment, 8500 pounds of water, 1000 pounds of rock, etc.? (Unpleasant Home Owner's experience).

If your goal is really a fish system, you are going to want to have a UV sterilizer on your system. Just because it's on the system doesn't mean you have to run it. You can turn it off and only operate it if you have an outbreak of something nasty. (Ewww! experience).

You may want to research the idea of keeping lobsters more. They are predatory and will eat your clean up crew and possibly some of your fish. I guess you'll find out when things start disappearing. (??? experience).

How do you plan to do a water change with any ease if you don't have a sump? Are you planning to haul 200 gallons of water over the top of your 48" tank to do a 20% change every month? (Brutal and back breaking experience)

If you haven't had a tank, who can you be sure that you know what you want to keep? The livestock you want is going to really dictate what you need. (Didn't even know it existed experience)

All kidding aside, I hope your system succeeds. I'll be watching for the build thread.
-B

[seapug]

The Reading List link above is definitely worth looking into, as well as many of the sticky threads at the top of this forum.

There's more involved than can really be covered here, but you should look into setting up a large sump to take care of all your filtration needs. Many people plumb their tanks to a basement "fish room" containing a large reservoir sump that can be used to house protein skimmers, carbon filtration, heaters, topoff system and other gear you don't want cluttering up your display. If you use a large koi pond type tub as your sump you can light it and set up partitions so it can function as a refugium to grow macroalgae to assist in nutrient export and feeding the tank. This is sort of the essence of the "Natural Method" commonly used to boost filtration and increase biodoversity in the system.

I'd also recommend picking up Vol. 3 of the Reef Aquarium book series by Delbeek and Sprung. It covers many types of filtration, water chemistry, aquascaping and other issues to consider with the operation and maintenance of both small and large marine/reef aquariums.

[lamontcarter]

I live in coastal north Carolina, it's illegal to have basements there. So you can see the problem this poses with a sump. A sump big enough to filter a tank like that couldn't fit anywhere but a basement, and since the tank is being built in a wall, pretty much on the foundation of my house (to hold the massive weight), I can't put it under the tank either. Could two skimmers (skimming at 11600gph collectively) and lots of live rock keep a tank that size with a heavy bio-load clean? I could also throw in extra uv filters or canister filters, but no sump.

[seapug]

You're going to want a sump of some sort on that tank. Running a tank that size with no sump is going to be a nightmare for a number of reasons, not the least of which is housing the protien skimmers alone. They don't look good as living room decor and the ones you'll need on a tank that size aren't going to be hang-on style. A thousand gallon tank is going to need some substantial space for all the pumps and equipment needed to run it or it'll be a real eyesore and/or nearly impossible to properly maintain. You'll probably lose 10 gallons of water to evaporation every day. A 50 gallon topoff reservoir won't fit under the tank.

Is there an interior closet you can build the tank into and use the space behind it to house the equipment? Check out Melevsreef.com and his build thread here on RC to see how it can be done.

[jprince58]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13726826#post13726826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lamontcarter
... A sump big enough to filter a tank like that couldn't fit anywhere but a basement, and since the tank is being built in a wall, pretty much on the foundation of my house (to hold the massive weight), I can't put it under the tank either. ...

Think horizontal vs. vertical. Is it possible to putting it in an adjoining room that could become the "equipment" room? It doesn't have to be directly under the tank. I know several folks who have their sumps situated like this.

[lamontcarter]

I can't just sit the skimmers on the floor?

[lamontcarter]

an adjoining room is possible. How big would that thing have to be though?

[Whys]

A sump also really helps with the heavy lifting. It is infinitely easier to siphon water into a sump and then let the pump lift it into the tank.

A sump also really helps with appearance. Gets a lot of the equipment out of the display tank.

[seapug]

You could, but most protein skimmers rated for the volume you are talking about are about 4 feet tall. They are a bit noisy and make muck that smells like death. It's not something you'll really want to have featured sitting on the floor in front of your tank. A 1000 gallon tank with no sump and all the equipment sitting on the floor in your living room is not going to look so great.

WrinkleFreeZone also brought up many other good points, from the standpoint of practicality. If you do not set the tank up in a way that makes maintenance simple and practical, you are going to be very disappointed with how it looks 6 months down the line. If you are going to make this kind of investment, you really ought to join a local club and/or talk to stores in the area that specialize in aquarium setup and maintenance. Otherwise, what could a be a fascinating, dramatic decorative element in your home could end up being a completely nasty eyesore simply because of poor planning.

[lamontcarter]

First off i would like to thank all of you for the information you have provided. I am still taking baby-steps toward starting my aquarium, and I do plan on doing more research, but this forum has already helped me so much in such a short time. Thank you for your support.

I was actually planning on having the protein skimmers somewhere else in the house, maybe in a closet or something, they are tall though, the specific models i want are about 8', so they'll probably be really close to if not touching the ceiling barely. I just don't see a sump being reasonable with this setup. I can't think of anywhere I could put one, but I do see the advantages of having one.

I still don't see why having 10x full tank volume turnaround per hour with skimmers wouldn't be a simple setup. Is there something that sumps offer besides the ease of water changes to an aquarium that protein skimmers can't (in filtering terms)?

[Playa-1]

If there is a way to go thru the wall or even have a closet in the next room custom built for it then you will be much better off. Maybe you can make your guest bedroom look like this
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/158898full_back.jpg

:lol:

[Whys]

OMFnG, Playa... now you can grow pod people!

[lamontcarter]

that is insane!

[nikon187]

sumps can allow you to unclutter your display with unsightly equiptment, add water volume ( not really that important in your case), could add a refugiuim to aid in filtration, easier water changes, possible frag tank with same water conditions as display, evaporation happens in the sump so a constant water level in display and can hook up multiple reactors and such. Just makes it more appealing IMO

[nikon187]

playa: I dream of a fish room like that one day :)

[Playa-1]

lol,
that's not mine but I saw the pic one day and decided to hang on to it for future reference.

[Kris51]

Two things not mentioned: The first is that you will need a 200gal holding tank just for your 20% monthly water change. RO/DI water takes some time to create. The second is cost: On the low side $60 per gallon. 1000 gallons X $60 that’s about $60,000 plus about $10-20 per gallon just for yearly up keep. This is before you purchase any animals for your tank. If money is no problem then think about the animals’ you will be caring for.